Baseball Shooters

[mattsartin]

Looking to upgrade my body, i currently have a Rebel XTi, mostly want to upgrade for a faster frame rate, 3fps is too slow. Looking at 30D or possibly 40D, Even a used 40D is still out of my price range at this point, was curious if anybody found the 6.5 fps to be that much of an advantage over the 5 fps of the 30D. I like shooting any sports but spend most of my time at baseball games due to cheaper tix. thanks in advance

[peety3]

What are you missing that 3fps isn't enough? I haven't shot baseball, but I'd think that timing would be just about everything and fps isn't the solution to the problem. Granted, a 30D would shorten your shutter lag from 100ms to 65ms, and 40D would bring it to 59ms.


I used to be a "10fps and motor my way to great shots", but for a lot of what I'd shoot I'd find that the great shot came in between shots 1 & 2 of a sequence.


See http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/2829 for a great story about a photographer's "game" where the first frame you shot counts - imagine if we could temporarily prohibit picture erasing on our digital cameras and still compete like the old days.

[HiFiGuy1]

Nice article about First Frame. I actually tried to shoot the "guns blazing" way for a while with my first camera, which was a 5D. It has maybe 3-3.5 fps, so "blazing" is relative. I only had it for a short time, and already realized that it was going to have to be about timing, that I couldn't lean on the camera tomake the shot for me. It seems like all too often the shot I knew I wanted and could see in my mind's eye was in between the frames I captured.


Even though it is capable of 6.5 fps, or basically double the speed of the 5D, many times now I find myself turning the High Speed mode of my 40D off, and just shooting a frame at a time. I think it is making me better.


Of course, I am still saving my pennies for the 1D Mark IV when it comes out. You never know when you might need 10+ fps! [:D]

[joback]

I find that the burst rate of the 40D isa cool feature when shooting candid photos of someone talking before an audience. Some people have really animated faces.The face of people who project lots of personality can change so fast--you don'tsee it in real time, but the camera does. You end up with a lot of throw-aways due togoofy grimances,eye blinks, etc. I've experienced that problem photographing a certain California politician (no, I'm not going to post an image showing this guymaking a funny face). It's nice tohave a pile of exposures in order to pick the real winners.Captured with a Canon 40D in burst mode, 24-105L.


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[peety3]

Nice article about First Frame. I actually tried to shoot the "guns blazing" way for a while with my first camera, which was a 5D. Even though it is capable of 6.5 fps, or basically double the speed of the 5D, many times now I find myself turning the High Speed mode of my 40D off, and just shooting a frame at a time. I think it is making me better.


Of course, I am still saving my pennies for the 1D Mark IV when it comes out. You never know when you might need 10+ fps! /emoticons/emotion-2.gif
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Shoot flash sometime, and the guns-a-blazing mode goes away quickly. :) Even if your flash is shooting at a low power, you probably can't feed batteries into it often enough to keep up. Studio work has really forced me to learn timing, but a few recent event gigs (with a few key sections shot with fill flash) reinforced the lesson. And that's with 10fps at my disposal! On one gig, I drained a 580EX II with external battery pack (and drained a remote 580EX II so hard it just went to sleep).


Lately, about the only time I enable high-speed drive is for handheld HDR photography - seven shots bracketed in under a second, while handheld (let's say, on top of a ladder where I have no hope for a tripod or monopod), minimizes the difference between shots (and creates a neat motion look in some cases).

[Rodger]

hahah I enjoyed the 'first frame' article too.


Here is a link ("http://digital-photography-school.com/how-to-photograph-baseball) to a tutorial on shooting baseball. Really the only part that applies to this conversation is under the "Precision Timing" heading, but the article is full of good tips.

[joback]

The First Frame article is interesting, but don't miss the point. It's all about the vanity (and lazyness?)of certain photog pros. It'snot about getting the best shot possible. I've heard pros make negative comments about"amatuers" who take lots of shots from lots of angles.If you see One-Shot as just a game, fine. If you're going to beat your chest because you thinkyou can get the job done in one frame,please get over yourself! If you really care about the craft,put your egoto restand take tons of photos. Cameras with high burst rates are great for sports photography. Fill up your memory cards. Then,scan them for the best shot(s). It's work, but that's the way it's done.

[mattsartin]

When asking this question i realize having a higher frame rate wont improve my creativeness or my ability to use the camera but i need an upgrade anyways. i would like a higher frame to maybe try and get some ball to bat contact shots, nearly impossible with 3 fps, also had a few other situations it seemed like i missed shots between frames. what i really want to know is about people who have used the 30D or 40D for sports and what they thought, thanks for the comments so far :)

[peety3]

You'd better get the 40D. That'll really help.

[Bill W]

mattsartin;


My 40D is seldom off the AI Servo and High speed settings....most of my time photographing is spent trying to capture birds in take off/landing situations as well as in flight.


If the situation arises for a 1 frame, static shot of a bird.....my practice of rolling my shutter finger usually allows me that 1 frame shot. I've not yet perfected this technique....but is a quick 2 or 3 shot burst of a static subject a bad thing?


I seldom maximize the 6.5 fps capability of the 40D; I watch the birds for movement indicators and try to anticipate that moment.


I know this isn't a sporting event, but this type of photography utilizes shooting techniques and knowledge of your subject (to me the most important components) that transfers to capturing good action (e.g. bat striking the ball) shots.


Then when I view the pics, I select what I consider the photos w/the best clarity/sharpness, then crop the photo to further focus upon the action I was trying to capture. Obviously, I tweak other factors (i.e. exposure, colors, etc.) that may have changed during my panning.


Rarely do I find myself selecting the first frame of the shooting sequence.


When I can afford to move up to a FF body, it will be the 1D Mark lll (or 1D Mark ll N), because it's 10 fps ability separates it from the rest of the FFs.


Oh yeah, I do end up w/quite a few (many hundreds) shots during these sessions....so make sure you have plenty of memory available. [:)]


Regards


Bill

[peety3]

mattsartin;


My 40D is seldom off the AI Servo and High speed settings....most of my time photographing is spent trying to capture birds in take off/landing situations as well as in flight.


If the situation arises for a 1 frame, static shot of a bird.....my practice of rolling my shutter finger usually allows me that 1 frame shot. I've not yet perfected this technique....but is a quick 2 or 3 shot burst of a static subject a bad thing?


I seldom maximize the 6.5 fps capability of the 40D; I watch the birds for movement indicators and try to anticipate that moment.


Rarely do I find myself selecting the first frame of the shooting sequence.


When I can afford to move up to a FF body, it will be the 1D Mark lll (or 1D Mark ll N), because it's 10 fps ability separates it from the rest of the FFs.


Oh yeah, I do end up w/quite a few (many hundreds) shots during these sessions....so make sure you have plenty of memory available.
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For reference, the 1D series is not full frame. It's less crop than the two-, three-, and four-digit models, but it's not full frame. The 1Ds series is full frame, but it's not 10fps.


I'm slowly learning to admit that I have a thick skull. When I first got the 10fps monster, I used to rip away and toss 90% or more in the bucket when I came home. Lately, I'm getting better at shooting the right shot the first time (and shooting it right - desired composition, desired lighting, etc.) so that my post-processing time is shorter and my disk consumption is lower. I filled a 1TB drive with my/our work from 2002 through 3/2009; we've killed another 1/4TB in two months (with six events, admittedly). All too often, I'd fire away in HSD and not know what actually made "the roll" until I got home and reviewed. I don't like going home unaware of what I really got. In addition, firing away like that led to bad habits - the first and last shots were often blurry, because I wasn't using good technique on a consistent basis.


My opinion (and it's nothing more than that, except that I suspect a lot of folks with tens of thousands of frames shot would agree) is that it's all about timing, anticipation, and truly knowing your equipment. A "better" camera is going to shorten the shutter lag, so you'll have to learn that difference, but it's not going to change much else.


Do try shooting with flash sometime. When you have to wait 2-5 seconds for the flash to recharge, you'll see a lot of stuff disappear in front of you, and you'll gain an ability to read the action. Shooting at 6.5fps means you'll be taking a shot every ~154ms. Shooting baseball outdoors in the daytime probably leads to shutter speeds of 1/1000th or better. At 6.5fps you're still only capturing 0.6% of the action!

[Bill W]

Peety....thanks for the correcting my thought about the 1D Mark lll. Sounds like you and I have something in common.....a thick skull. [:)]

[Dallasphotog]

For sports performance at a budget price, you might go shopping for a used 1DMKII. The MKIIN is an even better choice, but still runs about $1,750 used here in Dallas. I've seen the 1DMKII for $900-$1,100. They're built like tanks and the autofocus is quite good. The downside side is it will feel like a bowling ball compared to your XTi.

[Colin]

Even at only 5 fps, the higher possible frame rate is why I sometimes keep my 30D on the lens instead of the 5D.


Before my kids' gymnastics place closed, I used AI servo and continuous shooting a LOT. Even if I didn't just press and hold and let the machine gun roll, it was nice to be able to take another shot immediately. Example, kids running up, jumping off the spingbroad, hands hitting the fault, kid in the air over the vault, kid preparing to land, kid landing, kid falling over. Even if you're able to press your shutter individually, the capacity for a higher frame rate in the camera helps a whole lot.


I wouldn't want to go around spraying 10 fps all the time, but I sure wouldn't mind having the capability. It's good to develop intuition and timing to be able to get the shot with less, but if the priority is to get the shot, get it anyway you can, I think.

[joback]

Colin: Yes, I agree andfeel the same way about my 40D. When I was shooting the California governorat a podium (see earlier post), I used a 5D mkII. That's aclear shot where the 5D shines.I quickly switched to the 40D for its burst rate whenthe governorpressed intothe crowd.Yes, it's cumbersome tolug two cameras around. I don't do thata lot, but it's necessarywhen you need the best of both worlds.

[Colin]

Joback, what event was it that he received a lei?


Looks like a Hawaiian contituency [:)]

[joback]

Thanks for the interest, Colin: This reception at the Stanford Mansion in Sacramento was to celebrate "Asian and Pacific Islander American Heritage Month."


FYI: Shots of various VIPson the following page are about 70% from a 5D mkII and the rest from a 40D. The client is the public service organization who sponsored the event. Thephotographsinclude the Governor,state legislators, a former NBA star who's mayor of Sacramento,local media personalities,business leaders, and other pillars of the community: http://www.apapa.org/news/2009_governors_reception.htm ("http://www.apapa.org/news/2009_governors_reception.htm)

[Bob]

<span style="font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"]Look at the frame rate as 1/framerate. i.e. (5fs = an imageevery 200 ms or3fs = an image every 333ms). <o:p></o:p>


<span style="font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"]Can you show us a series of images and tell us what you would have liked to captured but missed?<o:p></o:p>


<span style="font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 9pt;"]Also the frame rate of a camera assumes that you are shooting wide open, otherwise the frame rate slows down to allow the aperture to settle.<o:p></o:p>

[mattsartin]

i don't have an example of a particular series sorry, i was shooting wide open though, a few samples are available in a previous post: College Baseball

[peety3]

<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; color: black;"]Also the frame rate of a camera assumes that you are shooting wide open, otherwise the frame rate slows down to allow the aperture to settle.





Huh? The frame rate assumes that have a high enough shutter speed (model-specific, but often around 1/250th) to give the camera time to do its thing, but I've NEVER seen anything that suggested that the camera could shoot faster wide-open. I have seen a menu option in the 1D Mark III series of cameras that allows a shorter (but variable) shutter lag - it defaults to 55ms for all apertures, but if selected can shorten the shutter lag to as short as 40ms, aperture/lens-dependent.

[SRPHOTO]

its really all about timing.. i have an XSi 3.5 fps and i got this really well timed shot to get the bat on the ball.. had a little fun in post...












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