70-200 f/2.8 or f/4 + flash

[Rodger]

I dont mean to crowd the forums with another "I need help" post, but I'm in a bit of a tricky situation. I think I've done my homework, but I remain paralyzed with actually making a decision.


Background:


-I have a 20D with the 18-55 kit lens and a 50mm f/1.8 II.


-I like to shoot just about anything. Portraits, sports, nature, you get the idea. For examples of what I shoot go here. ("http://www.rodgerobley.blogspot.com)


Dilemma: 70-200mm f/2.8 L non IS, or 70-200mm f/4 non IS withbeginnerstrobe kit.


Explanation:


My next lens purchase will be a 70-200mm L lens. That I am certain of. Now what exact lens remains up in the air for me. Originally I had my heart set on the f/2.8 non IS. I dont have the money for IS and don'tnecessarilyneed it. (Though I would upgrade eventually).


I plan on spending right around 1K on photographyequipmentthis summer. The 70-200mm f/2.8 L was right at the edge of my budget. But just now as I was browsing through the Strobis ("http://strobist.blogspot.com/)t site, the desire to try off camera lighting struck me. Off camera lighting has been in the back of my head for awhile now. I woulddefinitelylike to expand my abilities into that area. There is a "starving student" strobe kit on Midwest Photo Exchange ("http://www.mpex.com/page.htm?PG=STROBIST2XKITS). I would mostlikelygo for the one with the Cactus V2s trigger unlesspersuadedotherwise. Heck I'd even be open to building a kit from the ground up with pc cords if I had to.


I plan on shooting my school's soccer games this year. I shot one peewee game a month ago on an overcast day in AV mode set to f/4 and my niftyfifty. I got reasonable shutter speeds every time.


If I go with the 70-200 f/4 non IS and a flash kit, a 70-200mm f/2.8 IS would be next on the list. (with the 70-200 f/4 going up for sale)


If I go with the 70-200 f/2.8 non IS, a flash kit is next on the list.


So I'm asking all the great andknowledgeablepeople on this site to give me your opinions.


Thanks in advance,


Rodger

[Daniel Browning]

70-200mm f/2.8 L non IS, or 70-200mm f/4 non IS withbeginnerstrobe kit.


f/4 + strobes IMHO. The difference between f/2.8 and f/4 is huge, but it's still smaller than the difference between lights and no lights. I think the strobes will open up a lot more opportunity than a single stop of aperture.

[Sean Setters]

My advice--the best way to improve the quality of your shots is to learn how to use off-camera lighting effectively.Of course, I'mone of this forum's biggest strobist advocaters--so I might be a bit biased.


The following was taken with 3 off-camera flashes (all 285HVs if I remember correctly) using the 70-200 f/2.8 L IS. However, I shot it at f/4, 1/200 sec, ISO 100, so it would be perfectly doable with the 70-200 f/4.
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My off-camera lighting kit has grown substantially over the past 2 years, and I'm nowhere near done buying equipment. But, I always try totake the best pictures I can with the gear that I have, and buy more whenever I think it's necessary (or else just to try something new).


Start off with a strobe, a lightstand, a swivel, an umbrella, and a triggering system. Once you start getting the hang of it, then buy more as needed. Save some money by making your own light modifiers like snoots and grids.

[Rodger]

Thankyou for the replies.


Right now I am leaning more toward the f/4 + strobe deal. I think ,like Daniel said, that the strobes will allow me to do more. Especially portraiture-wise.

[wusstigphoto]

I guess in the end, its which you want more at this point in your photography career... shooting sports as your kids grow ordoingstrobiststyle photos. I do both so I'm rather opinionated in this area... check out my bio for the links to my sports and studio photos.


The 70-200 is the best lens to get for that budget for soccer games (from the middle of the field to the side your on) but getting the f/4 over the f/2.8 would be a mistake imho. All school games are after school and depending on the time of year, games ran until dark which made even my 2.8 useless at some point during the game. forget using flash on the field. An f/4.0 will also limit you to outdoor shooting... there are many events that are held in school gyms that really require the f/2.8.


I've used my 70-200 f/2.8 (non-IS) for a couple years now and really want to move up to a 300 f/2.8 but don't see that happening anytime soon because of the cost. If I just bought an extender, that will bring my Ap down a stop to f/4 so thats not an option for me.


I also use the cactus triggers (ST-E2's actually)) but get frustrated with them every now and then when they keep going off on their own or sometimes not at all. They have a mind of their own and now that I've used those for a over a year, I'm ready to upgrade to PW's (used maybe). Its not a big deal except when your in somewhat of a hurry or are taking pics of big groups and they're all waiting on you to get that pic but you say "wait, one more, my flash didn't go off" or they went off on their own and then you take the pic and they're still charging so you have to tell them "wait,... one more time, then someone blinked, etc.,etc.,etc. Again, not a big deal but kind of a pet peeve of mine now.


Here's an example of a soccer game that ran til dusk and my f/2.8 was done for the night as all I can do is keep bumping up the ISO.f/2.8 ISO 400 or ISO 800 for the F4 lens,point here is there's probably only several more minutes that I could shoot as there's typically no field lights. Again, these are all just my $.02 but things to consider in making a good choice.


Dave


Dusk shot (panning at ISO 400)...


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2023/2036487749_7722c429ce.jpg


mid-field @200mm...


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/2037299964_08530d001a.jpg


far-field @200mm (yellow card trip or #14 doing a head stand, not sure which [:D])...


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2021/2037302244_bc5e17d9db.jpg

[Rodger]

Dave,


I realize the f/4 would sometimes push the limits outdoors even.


But where I'm at in my photography "career" (lets hope itdevelopsinto that! haha) , It seems like getting acceptable-goodsoccershots and having the ability to use off camera flash (understandably not for soccer) is a better deal than having great-amazing soccer shots.


Regardless, I will still long for the 70-200mm f/2.8 and think about it way more than what is healthy, but I think it will have to wait awhile. Darn my part time job. Darn it to heck. hahah


Thanks again!

[Rodger]

Ok one final question. If I can, I'd like to ask all theknowledgeablein the area of off camera strobist lighting to look over my proposed kit and point out any glaring holes in it. Keep in mind I amgoing with the Cactus V2s because frankly I don't have the money for pocket wizards. One day. One day..


-Strobist Starving Student SX4 Lighting Kit (Midwest photo exchange ::: Link ("http://www.mpex.com/browse.cfm/4,12835.html))


-2 Vivitar 250HV flashes (BH photo ::: Link ("http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/9134/Flashes_Accessories_Non_Dedicated_Flashes.html))


-Cactus V2s trigger/receiverset [one trigger, one reciever] (GadgetInfinity ::: Link ("https://www.gadgetinfinity.com/product.php?productid=16766&cat=274&page=1))


-Cactus V2s receiver [one morereceiver] (Gadget Infinity ::: Link ("https://www.gadgetinfinity.com/product.php?productid=16767&cat=274&page=1))


Thats it. ThebenefitsI see to mis-matching a kit rather than buying the whole kit together from mpex are


-PC cord and wireless synch


-I get the flashes I want


-I worked it out, and its actually a little cheaper than the whole kit.





Thoughts? glaring wholes in my approach? I have a Canon 20D so I will be able to use the PC cords should the V2s's fail.


Thanks in advance,


Rodger

[abyssal20]

Save yourself a bundle right now and go with the 70-200 f/4. Take the leftover and get your flash equipment. While I was trying out a 30d at a skateboard competition, I used the aftorementioned 70-200 f/4 non-is and the on-camera flash. The lens was fast enough, light, excellent optics, and worked great with the onboard flash. This was shot at 1/250 f/4.


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[clemmb]

I have also been looking into the Cactus triggers and see that I will have to pay the import duity. Can anyone tell us what that runs for here in the US?


I have had problems with sync cords till I replaced all mine with cords from www.paramountcords.com. They seem expensive but I have not had any problems since I switched.


Mark

[Rodger]

Clemmb,


I just realized that MPEX sells the cactus V2s 's here ("http://www.mpex.com/browse.cfm/4,11447.html).


That is what I'll be going with now. They are a start up company in Ohio. The strobist site/blog said it's best to order by phone. I'm guessing the $4 jump is less than duties though.

[Sean Setters]

@Roger


The lightstands that come in that kit are the LP606s, and they are fantastic. Quite durable, relatively compact. I have 3 of them, and do most of my lighting with them. The umbrella swivels are good, but it's a little tougher to fine-tune the position of the light because of the notches. Otherwise, they work well (and I used them for quite some time).


I personally love the 285HV flash, but I think I'd try to find a couple of used ones on ebay for less. The most recent batch of them coming out of Japan may not have been made with the best quality control practices in place. I have 3 Vivitar 285HVs, and one Vivitar 285. The only one I had fail was the one I bought new. I returned the defective flash and it was replaced under warranty. The other flashes I bought used off of ebay and they've worked perfectly.


I used the Cactus V2s triggering system for quite some time. When it worked, it was great. However, over time their lack of ruggedness begins to show. They're a great way to start out, but after a little while you're going to want something more reliable. Instead of PocketWizards, take a good look at Paul C. Buff's Cybersyncs ("http://www.alienbees.com/cybersync.html). That's what I moved to a few months ago, and I'm absolutely loving them. They're substantially less than PocketWizards, and have a range of about 300 feet. They can even be used to trigger your camera with a shutter release cable ("http://www.flashzebra.com/shutter_pw/0090.shtml). Of course, if RadioPoppers ("http://radiopopper.com/blog/2009/03/04/jrx-update/) ever actually starts selling their long-awaited JrX units, they'll give the Cybersyncs a run for their money. As they still aren't available, I certainly can't recommend them. As for me, I got tired of waiting...


PS- If you order the Cactus V2s triggers from GadgetInfinity, they come straight from the source in China. They'll likely arrive at your door labeled as gifts, with no duties due (but don't hold me to that...I could be wrong). Might want to contact them first.

[Rodger]

@abyssal20, Thanks. Yeah I can get both this summer and I've worked out about $400 for a light kit. The light kitdefinitelycomes second priority as I can probably make someof the stuff DYI at least until I can afford legitequipment. Can't really make an L lens DIY style haha.


@ Sean, thankyou for your input. I willdefinitelycheck ebay out now and save the link for the cybersyncs.


Thanks everyone!

[ShutterbugJohan]

I would go with the 70-200/4L + the lighting kit. Since I do few portraits, my lighting kit is rarely used, but it delivers amazing results when I do use it.