400 f5.6, 100-400, 500 f4 or mortgage? +views on prices returning to pre-crunch levels?

[Feanor]

This thread is partly a bit of fun and partly serious, as I keep trying to pursuade myself that I've spent enough on this hobby for the next 5 years. But somehow I've found that I'm not listening to myself.


I currently
have a 5DII, 24-70, 70-200 f2.8 IS and 2x Extender. I would like
something longer and keep drooling over the 500 f4. But mostly it's
done in the way most people drool over expensive sports cars - ie I
doubt I'll ever buy it. The trouble is I'm not very good at that - I
tend not to bother looking at something lots if there's no way I could
ever afford it (ie, I don't find myself pouring over the Veyron specs
as a potential purchaser might). The sad truth is that I could afford
the 500 f4 - it would probably just be a rather foolish thing to buy.


I
also keep looking at the 100-400. But I've read mixed things about it.
And having used the 2x Extender with my 70-200 I really don't think
400mm is enough on full-frame. I also don't like the idea of
duplicating most of the range of my 70-200 - it just seems pointless.
Also, having had excellent results cropping very, very heavily with the
5DII's 21MP sensor on the 70-200, I'd like to be able to do that with
the 100-400 - but, having found that this isn't really possible with
the 2x Extender (which I almost never use now), I'm wary of trying to
do the same thing with the 100-400.


I guess I could go for the
400 f5.6, although I dislike the fact that it has no IS. Even so, I
could probably then crop to my heart's content if it really is
significantly sharper than the 100-400. But still, I've read 1DIII
users who weren't happy with the reach on their 400 5.6. They added a
1.4x Extender to their already 1.3x sensor - I can't, and it's also
0.3x "less" than theirs. But I could add an extender to a 500 f4. That
would be cool.


I have read that for serious birding, or for
aircraft shows etc, or for generally shooting fast flying things which
for some reason I enjoy, that you need "at least" a 500mm lens. But
maybe in some situations a 500 would be too much which would be just as
bad if not worse. Or maybe if it were too much the 70-200 will get in
adequately close enough for me to crop the difference later. I don't
know


Then there's the recent price hike. I bought my 5DII having got
wind of the increases before they happened, with the intention of it
being my last major purchase until things settled down. I don't mind
spending lots of money but only if it's a worthwhile long-term
investment. I hate the thought that prices could come back down,
especially as the 500 went from ~£3700 to £5k. Although I've read that
the yen was actually too cheap and is now more fairly priced, which
doesn't bode well for us ever returning to the prices of last year.


So
you know where I'm coming from with my thoughts, a bit of background -
I'm not a pro, just a keen amateur. I don't
actually have that much time for photography - and even less time for
actually doing something with my pictures once I've taken them. I'd
quite like to take pictures of birds and wildlife as this hobby as
awoken an interest in that sort of thing - before, I used to get
rapidly bored with being out and about with nature. But I do travel
with work quite a lot and many of my opportunities for photography are
while I'm away with work or on holiday - for which massive 500mm lenses
aren't ideal.


I'm 25 and have had a good job for a while. But I've been saving up for
a deposit on a house, having been waiting for some years for the UK
market to crash. I intend on buying once the dust has settled. All my
kit has been bought within the last year and at every stage I have not
intended on making further purchases. But I keep wanting more. All the
same most of the money hasn't come out of my savings - rather, it's
money that just hasn't gone in. A 500 f4 would make quite a large dent, though.


Either
way none of this is likely to happen until my girlfriend, who has the
potential of earning far more than I but having studied for longer
hasn't got her career going yet, has had a job for a while.


Please
help me at least to stop me wasting my time pointlessly reading reviews
comparing the 500 to the Bigma or whatever! (I don't really want a
Bigma ;) ).


Thanks in advance :D

[Keith B]

400 doesn't have enough reach on a FF most of the time. I like the 100-400 but it stays on my 40D almost exclusively. In rare lower light, long range stuff I'll put it on the 5DmkII for the high ISO performance.

[Sinh Nhut Nguyen]

I don't actually have that much time for photography - and even less time for actually doing something with my pictures once I've taken them.


I'm going to be straight up with you. In order to maximize the potential of any supertelephoto lens, you need to use it very often, you need to know its strengths and weaknesses. If you only use it once in a while and don't have time to review and study the images that you have taken, don't expect to get good results.


My recommendation for you is to get something cheaper to use for now, like the 100-400 or 400 f/5.6. If you're truly hooked into bird photgraphy after shooting with the 400, then you can always get the 500 f/4.


What you're experiencing right now is not the interest inphotography but GEAR LUST!


I apologize for being so blunt, but I want to get my message accross because I've seen a lot of poeple who bought their 500 and 600 and had to resell thembecause they found out that they didn't use it much or couldn't use it.


Nate,

[Feanor]

Sinh - please don't apologise for being blunt, that's exactly the
response I'm after! I need someone to tell me not to be such a fool, to
be honest. Although, in fairness, even though you're probably not wrong about the gear lust, it is lust borne of having experienced the limitations of my existing kit. I say I don't have that much time for this hobby, which is true - especially for going somewhere just with the single intention of taking photographs. But I do take every opportunity I have. I nearly always have my camera with me wherever I go that isn't my routine commute to the office.


I do find it a bit frustrating that there's nothing above 400
available that isn't a bit cheapo with an unnecessarily large zoom
range, like the Bigmas, and isn't top-end and crazily expensive. It'd
be nice if Canon did a 500mm version of the 400 f5.6, or if Sigma made
something that wasn't such a compromise. One can but wish.


I think you're right - one of the two 400s are probably the best bet. I imagine I'll end up going for the prime to be honest. Thanks :)

[Daniel Browning]

I, too, suggest the 100-400. The 400 prime is sharper, but this can be out-weighed in many circustances by the flexibility of the zoom and IS. Furthermore, the IS will allow you to stop down more with TC. For example, the 100-400 and 1.4X or 2X TC can be stopped down to f/14 for increased sharpness, which helps to close the sharpness gap of the fixed focal. That's only possible with I.S. (For small subjects and close focus distances you'll want f/14 just for the DOF, especially while you are perfecting your manual focus technique.)


On the other hand, if you are certain you can make do without zoom and IS, the 400 would be a better choice. I suggest considering the 500mm f/4 only after you've had sufficient time with the 100-400+TC. Many amateurs will not want to give up the handholdability.

[jasbsar]

Stick with the Canon glass and go 100-400mm or 500mm.

[wickerprints]

I have a fairly similar lineup: 5DmkII, 24-105/4L IS, 85/1.8, 70-200/2.8L IS. I am a huge fan of IS which is why I chose the 24-105 over the 24-70/2.8L, although it was not an easy choice by any means. However, a critical difference is that I acquired all of this in the last 2 months. As such, I'm not in the market for a 500/4L IS. I'm not made of money.


Yet I too have been looking at the 200+ mm range, and I think it's only natural to want to consider covering as much focal length range as possible. I'm primarily interested in portraiture and street, which is why I have the above lenses. I've found that there have been times when I wished I had the 15/2.8 fisheye, or the 400/5.6L, or a macro (haven't settled on which one yet).


So the point is, you want to shoot certain things. You have an idea of your needs but to what extent are you going to be able to truly utilize what you get? What is the cost of ownership and what is the benefit? Have you factored in resale value? Since you have the 2x extender you already are able to shoot @ 400/5.6; although the quality is poor, you are at least able to get a sense of what it is like to work at that length. How often do you find you need to go there...and beyond? Do you feel like you are frequently missing shots because you are still too wide? That is the crux of the question.


So in my opinion, forget the 100-400/4.5-5.6L IS. That's not in contention because you don't have to have every length from 200-400mm covered. Once you get down to a sufficiently narrow angle of view, the difference in framing at various focal lengths is not enough to justify a continuous range. You would be better off in all respects with the 400/5.6L if you were thinking of the 100-400.


Furthermore you're not happy with your 2x extender because you're trying to use it on zooms, when you should be using it on primes. But you have no such primes! You should consider exchanging out the 2x for the 1.4x which is a better trade-off in quality and light loss vs. focal length gain.


Which brings us to the 500/4L IS. This is not a question of "do I buy it now, or later?"--because such a question is asked only by those who absolutely need it and know they need it, and the decision comes down to how to finance its purchase. Your question is "is the ownership of this lens justified?" You really want to go about hauling something like that around? It is not a trivial proposition. I can only infer from the indecision of your post that you've not quite gotten to the point where you have a concrete vision of what you will get from this lens. Perhaps your best bet is to rent one on a short-term basis.


Moreover, if you're considering a $5800 lens you may as well consider a $6800 lens, the 400/2.8L IS. The difference in native angle of view is only 1.17 degrees! Yet you gain 1 full stop of light and your previously "useless" 2x extender would allow AF @ 800/5.6. This is precisely the situation where one realizes the true value of the EF extenders. The 400/2.8L IS is, in my opinion, a much more versatile and useful lens in that price range. And that's more evidence, I'm sorry to say, that you've not thought this out quite thoroughly, since this lens wasn't even under consideration. If you're going to dream big, make it REALLY big.


Where does all this lead you? I'd say you should try the 400/5.6L if you just had to get something. It's a nice sharp lens at a reasonably low cost. For about a fifth the price, you are one stop slower and about a degree wider. Sadly you can't AF with either extender on this lens (unless you had a 1-series body), and you also lose IS. But until you know what you need, it's best not to splash out only to leave it gathering cobwebs later. You'd be surprised how often that happens.

[Dallasphotog]

I think this is a great question. I'll start with a disclaimer. I own four Canon digital bodies (XT, XTi, IDMKII, 5DMKII) and so many lenses I've lost count, so I might be a bit prone to buying gear. With that said, I'll just mention that the EF300mm f/2.8 and the EF400mm f/2.8 are amazing devices and I have even used them with the 2x extender with good results. If you are serious about image quality and passionate about photography, the big white lenseswill serve you well.


Now for the real advice...I've only had the 5DMKII for 3 or 4 months, but like you, I'm beginning to believe the biggest advantage of 22 megapixels is cropping, cropping and cropping. You simply may find you don't need a 400-600mm focal length when you can cropto insane levels with the 5DMKII.This is especially true at ISO-100usingthe EF70-200mm F/2.8 L IS USM. I recently cropped a softball player,shot at about 60', down to a loose thread on her uniform before pixels began to show in the image.

[Jon Ruyle]

I have read that for serious birding, or for
aircraft shows etc, or for generally shooting fast flying things which
for some reason I enjoy, that you need "at least" a 500mm lens.


Nonsense.


At least the birding part. I'm not a serious bird photographer, but Sinh is, and he uses a 400mm f/5.6. Take a look at his pictures if you have any doubts.


Yes, he is shooting with crop body. But 1) the 40D has only a slightly higher pixel density than the 5DII and 2) we aren't looking at his pics 1-1 anyhow... they're scaled way down.


I have no doubts Sinh could do great work with a 5DII and his 400mm f/5.6. (If I'm wrong, Sinh, speak up, and I'll gladly stand corrected [:)]).


If I wanted to do bird photography I would not hesitate to buy a 400mm for my 5DII (either the 400 f/5.6 or the 100-400) and use Sinh's photos as my inspiration.

[EdN]

I try to get out when I can to shoot local wildlife and wild birds. I'm currently shooting with a 300 mm F4L IS with a 1.4x Extender mounted most of the time, effectively giving it 420 mm F/5.6. Unfortunately, the wildlife in my neighbourhood are very shy and I can sure use more reach even though I'm using a 5D Mk II which has a lot of pixels to crop from.


The question of a 500 mm F4L IS is a good one, one that I'm asking myself as I can mount the 1.4x and get 700 mm F/5.6. Just the heavy weight and heavy cost . . .

[crosbyharbison]

If you're not going to use this lens a lot, then plan a vacation and rent it for a week or two.

[Cory]

None of the above... I'm waiting to see if a new model of the 100-400 comes out.


I have the original 75-300 IS USM and love having that range, but I'm having a hard time deciding between getting a 70-200 L 2.8 IS USM and the 100-400 L IS USM.


I could get the 70-200 and buy a good doubler, or I could buy the 100-400. I like the non-extending lens on the 70-200 but I know it won't take as good of pictures by going 200x2. I'm pretty sure the 70-200 will take better pictures, but I already have the 24-105 L IS USM and could potentially just use the doubler on it and buy the 100-400.


I have Can 10-22, Tam 17-50 2.8, Sig 30 1.4, Can 24-105 L 4.0 IS (and the mediocre Can 75-300). So, which one? I know, best solution... get both. I will eventually. I just have to figure out which first. Which means I'm leaning towards the 70-200 while I wait for an updated 100-400 to come out. I'm sure you guys will be just as decisive as me. [*-)]

[wickerprints]

I guarantee you that if Canon ever does release an updated 100-400, it will NOT be anywhere near f/2.8 nor will it even be a constant f-number. That is why the 70-200/2.8L IS is such a coveted lens--it is about as long as one can make a telephoto zoom whilst having a constant wide aperture. A 100-400 zoom will necessarily be something like f/4-5.6 unless you are willing to make the front element huge (or resort to DO). But that defeats the whole purpose of such a zoom and it's not going to be in the $1500 range anymore.


The 70-200/2.8L IS and the 100-400/4.5-5.6L IS are entirely, entirely different lenses for different photographic purposes, and not primarily because of the difference in focal length range. Since you are already happy with the design constraints (if not image quality) of 70-300/4-5.6 IS, you should simply go to 100-400 now because I don't see Canon updating this design any time soon. It will remain push-pull (an IF design would make the barrel prohibitively large and heavy for handholding), and it won't go much wider than it currently is, without becoming astronomically expensive. So I wonder what kind of update is desired...maybe more fluorite/UD elements for better CA control? Or...? Playing the waiting game means you could go another 5-6 years before Canon revisits this lens.


One last thing I would like to point out...based on your existing stated lineup you are missing out on shooting very fast apertures at the longer end, so I take it you're not doing a lot of portraiture or available light photography. That is the biggest reason to get the 70-200/2.8L IS, but you could be served quite well with any wide prime, 50/1.4, 85/1.8, 100/2.8 macro, 135/2L, or 200/2.8L II, each of which costs significantly less than the zoom and is sharper too.

[Colin]

why not drool over the 600 f/4 instead?


I mean, if you're gonna go big, go BIG!

[Colin]

I guarantee you that if Canon ever does release an updated 100-400, it will NOT be anywhere near f/2.8 nor will it even be a constant f-number. A 100-400 zoom will necessarily be something like f/4-5.6 unless you are willing to make the front element huge (or resort to DO). But that defeats the whole purpose of such a zoom and it's not going to be in the $1500 range anymore.


I guess you could make a 100-400 zoom, and make it a constant 5.6. However, if you make a 400mm telephoto faster than 5.6, it's not going to be with a 77mm front filter size. At 400mm, f/4, you'd need to have a front element larger than 100mm, even with DO. Every zoom I've seen has been heavier and larger than an equivalent prime. What would be cool would be if it could do f/2.8 at 200mm, f/1.4 at 100mm, etc. The aperture size would theoretically allow this, but there may be factors in design which prohibit this... If you wanted to guarantee constant aperture, go Av, and set the aperture to the slowest available...






That is the biggest reason to get the 70-200/2.8L IS, but you could be served quite well with any wide prime, 50/1.4, 85/1.8, 100/2.8 macro, 135/2L, or 200/2.8L II, each of which costs significantly less than the zoom and is sharper too.



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I like the 70-200/2.8L IS because I can change focal lengths quickly, which is handy when you're taking pictures of things that move, or at least don't wait for you to cross the room [:)]

[Cory]

Since you are already happy with the design constraints (if not image quality) of 70-300/4-5.6 IS, you should simply go to 100-400 now because I don't see Canon updating this design any time soon.





I may just do that. Since I have the 10-105 range covered and like being able to get close in shots of things I can't get to (a good example is Gargoyles on a building or other such architectural details).









One last thing I would like to point out...based on your existing stated lineup you are missing out on shooting very fast apertures at the longer end, so I take it you're not doing a lot of portraiture or available light photography. That is the biggest reason to get the 70-200/2.8L IS, but you could be served quite well with any wide prime, 50/1.4, 85/1.8, 100/2.8 macro, 135/2L, or 200/2.8L II, each of which costs significantly less than the zoom and is sharper too.
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This is true too. Probably why I am sure I'll eventually end up with both. They are different in usage and I want to be able to have all those usages... I just can't decide which to go with FIRST.

[Cory]

Oh, side comment. I often would like the fixed longer range lens, especially with the low f/stops... however I find much of my shooting where I want to be able to get a close shot of something 'far' away is done in areas where I don't have a good ability to move around a LOT. So I tend to stick to a zoom for longer range lenses.

[wickerprints]

While the 100-400 is about 4 years older than the 70-200/2.8L IS, all
bets are off when it comes to guessing which would see any design
changes...so my recommendation is to buy what you know is going to
maximize your utility, not which one you believe is going to stay
"newer." What's a missed opportunity worth?


Regarding the preference for telezooms over telephoto primes, I can appreciate your point, but the problem of course is that you're not left with a lot of options. The 100-400/4.5-5.6L IS is pretty much it, and it is the only 400mm zoom in the Canon lineup. If anything, I'm surprised you don't already own it given your stated shooting preferences--it's impressive even in its current incarnation.


My personal belief is that the importance of focal length is overemphasized in popular photography relative to aperture. By this I do not mean that I think one can get away with using a 24mm lens at an outdoor sporting event, or a 800mm lens for panoramic vistas. Having a variety of focal lengths at one's disposal is essential. What I mean is that the trend of technological improvement in zooms has led to an over-reliance on adjusting focal length to establish composition, to the detriment of sharpness and perspective considerations. Now, I'm not one of those 'prime shooters' (I love my zooms), but I've noticed in my own shooting style that I often subconsciously end up using the extremes of the zoom range and actually walk about to frame properly. And of course that makes absolutely no sense because I could have done better if I had chosen a prime to begin with! So I recognize that issue in my own experience.


Aperture-wise, I tend to shoot very wide, even with ample light, because I like to use shallow DOF to establish areas of interest. There simply isn't any other way to make that kind of image. As a result, I'm quite comfortable with the idea of sacrificing some zoom flexibility if it means I can shoot wider apertures. Of course, YMMV. It all depends on what you like to shoot, and how you go about the process.


I wonder what a 200-400/2.8-5.6L IS would look like. Certainly it could be sharper (though not necessarily smaller) than the 100-400.

[Mark Elberson]

I already have the 24-105 L IS USM and could potentially just use the doubler on it and buy the 100-400.
<p style="CLEAR: both"]

<p style="CLEAR: both"]Cory, the Extender EF 2x won't work on the EF 24-105mm f/4L
<p style="CLEAR: both"]"Inner focusing system with focusing cam Not compatible with Tele Extenders"
<p style="CLEAR: both"]Click here to see the <span style="font-size: x-small;"]Extender EF 2x II Compatibility Chart ("http://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/charts/canon2xExtender.html)
<p style="CLEAR: both"]<span style="font-size: x-small;"]I would buy whichever lens you think you'll get more use out of. I own both the EF70-200mm f/2.8 L IS and the EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS. I bought the EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS first and if I had it to do all over again I would do it in the same order. Both lenses are amazing but they do quite different things.

[Mark Elberson]

I wonder what a 200-400/2.8-5.6L IS would look like. Certainly it could be sharper (though not necessarily smaller) than the 100-400.
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>



Now that sounds neat!!! There has been SO much talk about a EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II but no one has ever brought up a 200-400mm f/2.8-5.6L IS version (that I remeber [:D]). That would be awesome! We already know that a 200-400mm f/4 version would both weigh and cost a ton (see Nikkor 200-400mm f/4 ("http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/300488-USA/Nikon_2146_200_400mm_f_4_G_AFS_ED_IF.html)) but how would the 200-400mm f/2.8-5.6 fair? Since I don't know anything about lens design I couldn't begin to speculate but odds are it would both weigh and cost a ton [:P]

[wickerprints]

The Nikkor 200-400/4 is large and heavy because it is a constant f/4 throughout its focal range. Since f-number = focal length / entrance pupil diameter, it follows that


front element diameter &gt; focal length / f-number.


So, for a 400/4 lens, the front element must be at least 100mm diameter (and is often larger due to other optical and mechanical considerations). This is why, in theory, one could make a 200-400/2.8-5.6 with a 77mm filter diameter, but it is unlikely because those "other" considerations usually mean that it is not possible to sustain a near-maximal theoretical aperture throughout the entire focal range, and some compromise is necessary. After all, you need space for the cams, gears, and electronics to operate the diaphragm and focus/zoom the elements. A more realistic design would be something like 200-400/3.5-5.6. I would not care much for a 200-400/4-5.6 unless such a lens had superb imaging quality over a more aggressive design.


Another possibility, though perhaps less appealing, is to design for an 82mm filter diameter and try something like a 200-400/2.8-5.0. But now you've made the lens heavier and bulkier, and 82mm is not a very popular filter size.


On a somewhat different note, I don't know why, but I personally find non-Canon lenses to be rather...ugly, Nikkors especially. Nikon bodies seem ugly to me, too. There's something about their shape and proportion that makes them look "wrong" somehow and I can't put my finger on it. Conversely, Canon lenses are very pleasing to my eye. I mean, just look at the 85/1.2L II. It's just...beautiful. Like a fine crystal paperweight. About as heavy and solid as one, too. If I had one in my camera bag, it could double as a blunt weapon in case I ever got mugged. (Just kidding, I could never bring myself to throw a $1700 lens.) But back to my point, you don't see Nikon making that kind of gear, do you? [:D]

[Gian Luca]

<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: small;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri;"]I have the 5D+5D MKII, Sigma 17-35, Canon 24-105L, Canon 70-210L F2.8 IS, Canon 100-400L <o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<o:p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"]</o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: small;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri;"]I read that you are afraid to duplicate the focal range of the 70-210 and 100-400, in reality they are 2 very different lenses.<o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: small;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri;"]Personally I use the 70-210 for portraits, indoor or low light sport or events, while I use the 100-400L every time I need the extra reach, and mainly outdoor, nature pictures outdoor sport etc.. For me they do not compete too much.<o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<o:p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"]</o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: small;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri;"]I also considered to sell the 100-400 to buy the 300 f2.8 + 1.4x and 2x. The 300 f2.8 is still light and small enough to be used without a tripod, and it is really nice also with 1.4x or 2x. I tested it 2 times, and I have to say that although is by far superior in image quality, I prefer to walk in the forest with the smaller 100-400, plus the possibility to zoom in and out is a big plus for me, especially if your fix lens is a 300+.<o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<o:p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"]</o:p>


<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;"]As far as the 500f4 prepare to use it almost exclusively with a strong tripod and the right support, so budget for 1.000 $ extra and the extra weight, as hand holding a lens like this is not really easy.

[Feanor]

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Wow, a lot of replies! I love this forum - I don't know anywhere else where
people would bothered to have read through the essay I opened this thread with,
much less replied with equally meaty posts [:D]. Here goes for a
multi-quoteathon without a multiquote button...!






I, too, suggest the 100-400. The 400 prime is sharper, but this can be
out-weighed in many circustances by the flexibility of the zoom and IS.
Furthermore, the IS will allow you to stop down more with TC. For example, the
100-400 and 1.4X or 2X TC can be stopped down to f/14 for increased sharpness,
which helps to close the sharpness gap of the fixed focal. That's only possible
with I.S. (For small subjects and close focus distances you'll want f/14 just
for the DOF, especially while you are perfecting your manual focus technique.)


On the other hand, if you are certain you can make do without zoom and IS,
the 400 would be a better choice. I suggest considering the 500mm f/4 only
after you've had sufficient time with the 100-400+TC. Many amateurs will not
want to give up the handholdability.





That is a very, very interesting point that I hadn't really thought about.
Proof, too, that all those reviews comparing the sharpness of the two lenses in
ideal situations don't really take account of real world use. But at the same
time I imagine that a lot of the time I&rsquo;d use a telephoto for shooting moving
objects, in which case IS can be either of limited or no use.


At the moment I don't feel that the zoom would be that much use to me -
whenever I use my 2x Extender with my 70-200 I tend to use it at 400mm. If I
went for the 100-400 it would mainly be for the IS.






Furthermore you're not happy with your 2x extender because you're trying to
use it on zooms, when you should be using it on primes. But you have no
such primes! You should consider exchanging out the 2x for the 1.4x which
is a better trade-off in quality and light loss vs. focal length gain.


Moreover, if you're considering a $5800 lens you may as well consider a
$6800 lens, the 400/2.8L IS. The difference in native angle of view is
only 1.17 degrees! Yet you gain <span>1
full stop of light and your previously "useless" 2x extender
would allow <span>AF @ 800/5.6.
This is precisely the situation where one realizes the true value of the EF
extenders. The 400/2.8L IS is, in my opinion, a much more versatile and
useful lens in that price range. And that's more evidence, I'm sorry to
say, that you've not thought this out quite thoroughly, since this lens wasn't
even under consideration. If you're going to dream big, make it REALLY
big.





(I've not quoted your whole post to save space...) It's very interesting
what you say about putting the 2x Extender on primes. In fact, I've read
recently about people getting much better results on the 70-200 with the 2x
when stopping down to f8 or below - something I hadn't tried as I'd wanted to
get as much shutter speed as possible and rarely had enough light (and didn't
bump up the ISO). It'll also be useful to experiment more with how I'd use a
400mm prime or zoom, especially after what Jon Ruyle said about 400 being
enough for many.


I see what you're saying about the 400 f2.8 but I don't think that's really
an option. The extra cost is just a bridge too far I think. But the lens is
also a lot bigger and a lot heavier - I'm already not sure how I'd manage
getting a 500 on an aircraft in my hand luggage along with the rest of my gear,
a tripod and the other non-camera bits and bobs I always like to take with me such
as books etc.


Interestingly, you use the word &ldquo;need&rdquo;, and I see what you&rsquo;re saying. But
the flipside is that none of this is a need. It&rsquo;s nice to be able to take
really good photos &ndash; and I&rsquo;d like to be able to take pictures of wildlife from
a long way away. But I&rsquo;m still not sure whether it&rsquo;s &pound;5,000 nice, if you follow
me.






Now for the real advice...I've only had the 5DMKII for 3 or 4 months, but
like you, I'm beginning to believe the biggest advantage of 22 megapixels is
cropping, cropping and cropping. You simply may find you don't need a
400-600mm focal length when you can cropto insane levels with the
5DMKII.This is especially true at ISO-100usingthe
EF70-200mm F/2.8 L IS USM. I recently cropped a softball
player,shot at about 60', down to a loose thread on her uniform before
pixels began to show in the image.





I see what you&rsquo;re saying but even with cropping 200mm isn&rsquo;t enough IMO. I
managed to get some great photos of some very tame sparrows a while ago at
200mm but I was almost within the minimum focus distance of the lens, and the
animals were still just about as big as the spot-meter circle. That said, the
cropping argument could be used to say that I don&rsquo;t need anything longer than
400mm.






why not drool over the 600 f/4 instead?


I mean, if you're gonna go big, go BIG!





Hmm, well.... as said, I tend not to drool over stuff I&rsquo;ll probably never
own. I&rsquo;d already be stretching my medium-term financial plans to breaking point
by getting the 500. And tbh even if I had the money I think the 600 is just too
heavy!






I wonder what a 200-400/2.8-5.6L IS would look like. Certainly it
could be sharper (though not necessarily smaller) than the 100-400.





I&rsquo;ve wondered exactly that. Or maybe a 300-500. If Sigma can make a (poor)
50-500 then surely Canon can make a good 300-500!

[Feanor]

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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]
<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]I have the 5D+5D MKII, Sigma
17-35, Canon 24-105L, Canon 70-210L F2.8 IS, Canon 100-400L <o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]I read that you are afraid to
duplicate the focal range of the 70-210 and 100-400, in reality they are 2 very
different lenses.<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]Personally I use the 70-210 for
portraits, indoor or low light sport or events, while I use the 100-400L every
time I need the extra reach, and mainly outdoor, nature pictures outdoor sport
etc.. For me they do not compete too much.<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]I also considered to sell the
100-400 to buy the 300 f2.8 + 1.4x and 2x. The 300 f2.8 is still light and
small enough to be used without a tripod, and it is really nice also with 1.4x
or 2x. I tested it 2 times, and I have to say that although is by far superior
in image quality, I prefer to walk in the forest with the smaller 100-400, plus
the possibility to zoom in and out is a big plus for me, especially if your fix
lens is a 300+.<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]As far as
the 500f4 prepare to use it almost exclusively with a strong tripod and the
right support, so budget for 1.000 $ extra and the extra weight, as hand
holding a lens like this is not really easy.<o:p></o:p>


<span style="font-size: 11pt;"]


-----------end quote - for some reason the /quote function won't work!-------------------
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]Interesting,
and reassuring regarding the 100-400. I&rsquo;d also be interested on how good the IQ
of the 300 f2.8 plus extender would be.<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]Regarding
budgeting for a tripod &ndash; I already have a Feisol, which I believe is plenty
strong enough for the 500.<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]To
further complicate the issue, I&rsquo;ve been looking a bit at the Sigma 500 f4.5. I
know I said I didn&rsquo;t want a Bigma but I&rsquo;d mostly read about the 50-500 or
120-500. The prime looks a lot more interesting, especially second hand. This thread ("http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69791)
I found on google has made me very interested in the idea.<o:p></o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]Thanks
everyone, I&rsquo;ll have to have a think, although feel free to add anything in the
meantime! :)<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif';"]<o:p></o:p>

[wickerprints]

Why not check out the test charts on this site and see for yourself how various lenses compare?


http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?FLI=0&amp;API=0&amp;FLIComp=0&amp;APIComp=0&amp;LensCom p=0&amp;CameraComp=0&amp;Lens=404 ("http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?FLI=0&amp;API=0&amp;FLIComp=0&amp;APIComp=0&amp;LensCom p=0&amp;CameraComp=0&amp;Lens=404)

[Feanor]

Interesting, I've spent a lot of time on the review side of this site but never noticed that! Although there are no 500s there.

[Feanor]

I've just come across a 2nd hand Canon 500 f4.5 for &pound;1200 (actually 1400 Euros). Any thoughts on this lens? I've noticed the Sigma doesn't have IS either.

[bob williams]

Feanor,


If you got-get it. I know that each time i have settled for something less,I end up regretting it. As mentioned by so many others, there are a dozen different ways to come close to the range you want, but they all have significant limitations. I too am seriously contemplating the 500 f.4, but the money is not available yet. ALthough, I don't think i would give up my down payment on a house, I would certainly look for a deal where the down wasn't as much. Back to the 500; one thing I have realized is that when you buy a sigificant peice of equipment, there is always something else you are going to need or want. In this case, good usable support, new type of filters etc. For a good tripod and gimbal head, you are talking another grand or more.If you decide on something else, the 100-400 is a great lens. Its versitile, clear and you can get high quality background blurr. I personally have grown to really like the slide zoom on it--well, there is my 2 cents worth. Good luck on your decision.