Legal Right to Photograph a Public Event

[Dallasphotog]

I normally shoot high school andcollegesports with the rare professional event on my resume. I've shot everything from the U.S. Olympic Softball Team to a "Hooked on Golf"tournament for grade school kids. I think I understand the area of media credentials, copyrights and usage pretty well, but I had a new situation arise this weekend.


I had a confrontation with a soccer tournament director this weekend that was a first for me. The strange part is I was photographing my own 13-year old daughter. Apparently, the organizers had arranged to have a "professional" shoot the tournament and sell photographs to parents. Heprobably complained to the organizers when he saw my EF400 f/2.8 L IS USM on the Canon 5D MKII. Regardless of whatsparked the concern, I was asked to put away my gear because the organizers had an exclusive arrangement with the vendor.


Needless to say, I refused. I noted that I wasnot the only parent with a camera and was told that mine "was too professional." The discussion was pretty ugly and the director threatened to call the police. I responded by threatening to call my lawyer. Needless to say, the police didn't come arrest me and I kept shooting. As a side note, the venue is a local public park.


I shoot a lot of kids sports under contract for individual parents and players. I can see a time when I'm going to be under contract to shoot a player and theorganizers are going to have contractedwith an event photographer. Legally, can theorganizerssellexclusive rights to an event on public property that doesn't charge admission or restrict parents from using their own camera gear (as long as it isn't too nice, of course)?


Anyone who has been down this road, I'd love to hear what you have learned.

[Sean Setters]

I must say I'm curious to hear the responses on this one....

[Rodger]

Sounds like total bull to me. They<span style="text-decoration: line-through;"]cant[shouldn't be able to] tell you to put your gear away cause it's "Too professional".


Anyone got a more knowledgeable response than mine? haha.


I'm interested in the legit legal argument too.

[twistedphrame]

I'm interested in hearing this too actually.





Though, coming from the great state of New Jersey I have little but to expect that there's some stipulation that allows this to occur. Also coming from New Jersey I would expect this changes from either a state, county or local level so you may need to actually check every location you're shooting at.





~Jordan

[hotsecretary]

Pretty sure if it's public property they're SOL!



But on private property you're walking a thin line.. I've been asked and had friends ask to put away their cameras or leave the location when shooting a "landmark" place. It's pretty sad when all you're trying to do is take a great picture.

[Oren]

Errr... dumb people - I hate them!

[Keith B]

You can shoot anything you want in a public place or even stuff on private property that can seen from publicplace. They need to hold their event indoors in a private place if they want to pull that crap.


Check to see if you signed anything when you signed up that said you wanted a stalker to photograph your kid and then have him try to sell you the images.

[WAFKT]

I agree 100% with Keith.

[Geoff]

I pass these links on FYI with no implicit endorsement.


http://www.kantor.com/legal-rights/


http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm





Geoff

[jusap]

I agree with Keith, not unless you signed anything stating that you can't take pictures during the game, then they can't stop you. Also taking to consideration the location. It's a public place. If you're in a covered area or within some school vicinity then they might have the upper hand on this. I'm not sure on these as these are just my opinion.

[Maleko]

sounds pretty crazy to me! I've never had or seen that problem.


He was probably annoyed that yours was bigger, haha.





Lets just ask this, would they have said anything if you had just a point and shoot camera??

[hotsecretary]

Lets just ask this, would they have said anything if you had just a point and shoot camera??





Of course not, it's purely one of those.. wow look at his camera.


Heck I took my 70-200 out the other night and our security at the Condo said.. "NICE CAMERA" meanwhile I've taken my NiftyFifty out a few times and never got that compliment ;)

But little did he know, I'm like.. it's a nice lens, the camera needs to be upgraded!!! [H]

[Rodger]

Geoff,


I think I read some of those before. Couldn't make it all the way through before my eyes started to feel heavyyy. haha. Good links though.


-Rodger

[peety3]

Is there a contract/agreement for your daughter to play soccer in this league/team? Is there a fee for her to play in the league/team? If so, I'd read that contract carefully, AND make it a point to add a clause to future contracts granting you the right to shoot photographs of your daughter and her teammates non-commercially. I'd point out that your daughter is paying to play, and therefore the league can't seize photographic rights without compensation in return. And/or, tell the organizer that the professional photographer doesn't have a model release for your daughter (or the rest of the team)...

[Dallasphotog]

Is there a contract/agreement for your daughter to play soccer in this league/team? Is there a fee for her to play in the league/team? If so, I'd read that contract carefully, AND make it a point to add a clause to future contracts granting you the right to shoot photographs of your daughter and her teammates non-commercially. I'd point out that your daughter is paying to play, and therefore the league can't seize photographic rights without compensation in return. And/or, tell the organizer that the professional photographer doesn't have a model release for your daughter (or the rest of the team)...



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My daughter has acontract with her select team and then the team signs up for the various tournaments.It doesn't look like the team signs any sort of contract with the associations organizing the tournament. Basically, they send in a check and get a confirmation e-mail confirming entry.


The more I research the issue, the more I'm convinced they had no basis for granting exclusive rights to any photographer to shoot what amounts to a public event.

[Dallasphotog]

I agree with Keith, not unless you signed anything stating that you can't take pictures during the game, then they can't stop you. Also taking to consideration the location. It's a public place. If you're in a covered area or within some school vicinity then they might have the upper hand on this. I'm not sure on these as these are just my opinion.



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I never have problems at schools. I have an ASA background check card and a press pass from the local school district that seems to eliminate any issues with high school sports.

[Dallasphotog]

sounds pretty crazy to me! I've never had or seen that problem.


He was probably annoyed that yours was bigger, haha.





Lets just ask this, would they have said anything if you had just a point and shoot camera??
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>



This is funnier than you can imagine. Only this forum will truly appreciate this reply. There was another very serious photographer roaming the sidelines near me with two Nikon D3x bodies. One was sporting a 70-200mm f/2.8 and the other had a 200-400mm f/4.0 on it, but of course, those lenses are black. The picture nazi's never even spoke to him. Apparently, white lens equals professional while black lens makes you an amatuer.


Maybe they just knew all pros shoot Canon...

[Dallasphotog]

sounds pretty crazy to me! I've never had or seen that problem.


He was probably annoyed that yours was bigger, haha.





Lets just ask this, would they have said anything if you had just a point and shoot camera??
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>



This is funnier than you can imagine. Only this forum will truly appreciate this reply. There was another very serious photographer roaming the sidelines near me with two Nikon D3x bodies. One was sporting a 70-200mm f/2.8 and the other had a 200-400mm f/4.0 on it, but of course, those lenses are black. The picture nazi's never even spoke to him. Apparently, white lens equals professional while black lens makes you an amatuer.


Maybe they just knew all pros shoot Canon...

[wusstigphoto]

right... my daughter plays club softball so the way it works is the hired photog has access on the field for the best possible shots. Parents shoot from anywhere off the field.


In your soccer case, they could restrict the field to some setback but once they get to the point where the rest of the parents are, all bets should be off.


I shot the High school varsity 5A-I State finals here in AZ which my daughter is on the team... every photog on the field had a press pass or an orange vest showing credentials to be on the field (except me and my partner :)


My gentlemens handshake with the school coach was any sales I made off of shooting these events, I'd donate back 25% to the school so when I was called out byone of the officials, my response was" I was hired by the coach to document the event"...both me and my partner were left alone after that.

[dmckinny]

I had a somewhat similar experience at the NCAA Wrestling nationals last spring. I had been shooting from the stands (I was spectating and just playing with the camera) for two days during the preliminaries. No one looked at me twice, even though I was shooting with a 30D and a 70-200 f/4. However, on the last day during the morning session I had at least three security guards checking me out. The last one pulled me out of my seat, called the head of security to come check out my equipment. The security head basically laughed and let me go.


I can't prove it, but I am pretty sure the pros down on the mat were looking up in the stands and complaining to security ;-) I took it as a compliment.





David

[Bob]

Now that everyone has given their 2cents, where is the legal opinion?

[Daniel Browning]

Now that everyone has given their 2cents, where is the legal opinion?


In the mind of a lawyer somewhere. Only problem is it costs more than two cents. [:)]

[Dallasphotog]

right... my daughter plays club softball so the way it works is the hired photog has access on the field for the best possible shots. Parents shoot from anywhere off the field.


In your soccer case, they could restrict the field to some setback but once they get to the point where the rest of the parents are, all bets should be off.


I shot the High school varsity 5A-I State finals here in AZ which my daughter is on the team... every photog on the field had a press pass or an orange vest showing credentials to be on the field (except me and my partner :)


My gentlemens handshake with the school coach was any sales I made off of shooting these events, I'd donate back 25% to the school so when I was called out byone of the officials, my response was" I was hired by the coach to document the event"...both me and my partner were left alone after that.
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>



I haven't had issues with local high school or even college sports because I'm usually shooting for the local paper. Even for the various Texas state finals, the media credentials were handled very professionally. The paper sends a fax to the UIL and they have credentials for me at will-call.


I'm more and more convinced that the soccer association has attempted to sell exclusive rights to the other event photographer that they don't own or control.It would be like me marking off a section ofa lake and selling exclusive fishing rights. It may sound great, but Inever really owned the dang lake. The soccer association doesn't own my child's likeness or the property upon which sheis competing.


Even if the association rents the fields from the city, they allow open access to the event and they allow cameras. They just didn't like the quality of my gear. More precisely, thier professional didn't like the quality of my gear.


I might be more polite next time, but I'm not puttingaway the camera.

[Keith B]

Now that everyone has given their 2cents, where is the legal opinion?






Mine was the Laymen verbiage for the legal. I work for some local magazines and we have been through this quite a bit. Anything that can be seen from a public are is open game. That is how the paparazzi make a living. In fact the paid photographer may be the one closest to violating some law since he is photographing minors and for profit. The only thing that is saving him is that he is selling the images to the childs parents otherwise he needs a release.


The only time you run into issues is if you shoot a picture of someone and put it in an ad to try to sell a product. If you use it for editorial purposes, the general public is at your mercy.

[Jeff Lucia]

I'm not a lawyer, but why not try putting the burden of proof on the official instead of trying to defend yourself? Simply ask, politely, "OK, would you mind telling me what law gives you the authority to tell me I can't shoot photos here?" Or simply, "Sorry, can you tell me exactly what law you believe I'm violating right now?" Especially if the official is threatening to call the police.


No matter what the response is, you can follow up by asking if the law differentiates between different types of photo equipment. The official won't be able to answer any of these questions, and you can shut the whole thing down by saying -- again, nicely -- "Actually, I do know the law, and I have every right to make photographs of my child and anyone else in public view. The law is very clear on that, so please let's not make this into a problem."


By the way,even if the official photographer has a contract granting exclusivity, if it's an open event on public property, how can two other parties agree to take away your rights without your consent?


If they threaten to call the cops, tell them to go ahead. The police aren't going to arrest you for taking pictures of your own kid just because you have a white lens. Just remember to be reasonable, and if the cops are misinformed enough to ask you to leave, respectfully ask them the same questions you asked the official.


If that doesn't work, say something about collateral estoppel. I heard it on Law &amp; Order. :)

[Cory]

Now that everyone has given their 2cents, where is the legal opinion?
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This link, given earlier in the thread, is to a document written BY a lawyer.


http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

[Daniel Browning]

This link, given earlier in the thread, is to a document written BY a lawyer.


http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm





Bob's question ("where is the legal opinion?") is rhetorical. No lawyer is going to offer a legal opinion on a forum. Even if one wanted to, and he/she was willing to take the risk of creating an attorney client relationship (no matter how many disclaimers), I doubt he would even be able to without performing additional research, such as reviewing the signed contract.


As the linked document says, "This guide is not intended to be legal advice nor
does it create an attorney client relationship. Readers should seek the
advice of a competent attorney when they need legal advice regarding a
specific situation."

[Maleko]

sounds pretty crazy to me! I've never had or seen that problem.


He was probably annoyed that yours was bigger, haha.





Lets just ask this, would they have said anything if you had just a point and shoot camera??
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>






This is funnier than you can imagine. Only this forum will truly appreciate this reply. There was another very serious photographer roaming the sidelines near me with two Nikon D3x bodies. One was sporting a 70-200mm f/2.8 and the other had a 200-400mm f/4.0 on it, but of course, those lenses are black. The picture nazi's never even spoke to him. Apparently, white lens equals professional while black lens makes you an amatuer.


Maybe they just knew all pros shoot Canon...
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>



haha! that is funny! So next time just purchase a lens cover thats black? :P

[Mark Elberson]

This is funnier than you can imagine. Only this forum will truly appreciate this reply. There was another very serious photographer roaming the sidelines near me with two Nikon D3x bodies. One was sporting a 70-200mm f/2.8 and the other had a 200-400mm f/4.0 on it, but of course, those lenses are black. The picture nazi's never even spoke to him. Apparently, white lens equals professional while black lens makes you an amatuer.


Maybe they just knew all pros shoot Canon...
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>



Wow! That's over $22k in gear!!!

[Bob]

This link, given earlier in the thread, is to a document written BY a lawyer.


http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm



<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>



Cory,


Thanks for the link, I must have missed it earlier.


Bob

[Cory]

Bob's question ("where is the legal opinion?") is rhetorical. No lawyer is going to offer a legal opinion on a forum. Even if one wanted to, and he/she was willing to take the risk of creating an attorney client relationship (no matter how many disclaimers), I doubt he would even be able to without performing additional research, such as reviewing the signed contract.


As the linked document says, "This guide is not intended to be legal advice nor
does it create an attorney client relationship. Readers should seek the
advice of a competent attorney when they need legal advice regarding a
specific situation."
<div style="clear: both;"]</div>





I think he got he legal opinion he was looking for from the link, complete with the obligatory legal disclaimer any lawyer would make. That lawyer is, in effect, giving his view of the topic and simply saying "There are always exceptions and don't come crying to me if you get in trouble...".


No lawyer is going to offer an official legal opinion on anything - forum or in person - unless s/he knows all the details of the situation.

[Dallasphotog]

This is funnier than you can imagine. Only this forum will truly appreciate this reply. There was another very serious photographer roaming the sidelines near me with two Nikon D3x bodies. One was sporting a 70-200mm f/2.8 and the other had a 200-400mm f/4.0 on it, but of course, those lenses are black. The picture nazi's never even spoke to him. Apparently, white lens equals professional while black lens makes you an amatuer.


Maybe they just knew all pros shoot Canon...
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>








Wow! That's over $22k in gear!!!
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>








Yep. That Nikon 200-400mm f/4.0 is more than $6,000 by itself.


If we had been hit by a meteor, the insurance guys wouldn't have believed the claim. I had the EF400mm f/2.8 on the 5D MK II and the EF70-200mm f/2.8 of the 1D MK II, plus the EF24-70 f/2.8 on the old XTi.


..and we were shooting 14-year old soccer players.

[Jeff Lucia]

...Um, did anybody get any good pictures? [;)]

[Dallasphotog]

...Um, did anybody get any good pictures? /emoticons/emotion-5.gif
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I got some stuff... After you look at the second one, take a few minutes and try to get your foot turned to that angle.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/hit4cycle4/TN_IMG_9118.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/hit4cycle4/TN_IMG_9133.jpg


Canon 5D MKII, Canon EF400 f/2.8 L IS USM, f/3.2, ISO-200, 1/2500

[Rodger]

After you look at the second one, take a few minutes and try to get your foot turned to that angle.





Ouch! Thats exactly why I prefer to take pictures instead of play! :)

[Jeff Lucia]

...Um, did anybody get any good pictures? /emoticons/emotion-5.gif
<div style="CLEAR:both;"]</div>









I got some stuff... After you look at the second one, take a few minutes and try to get your foot turned to that angle.





Canon 5D MKII, Canon EF400 f/2.8 L IS USM, f/3.2, ISO-200, 1/2500






I could probably get my foot turned to that angle, but I doubt it would ever turn back [+o(]

[peety3]

The soccer association doesn't own my child's likeness or the property upon which sheis competing. Even if the association rents the fields from the city, they allow open access to the event and they allow cameras.


I might be more polite next time, but I'm not puttingaway the camera.
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I think it's time for you to be "under contract" to shoot your daughter, and use that contract to get access to shoot at any of her events, including those that are indoors and "private".