Voice Activated Lightstand (VAL) Tips?

[Mark Elberson]

I am going to be shooting a party this weekend. My wife has volunteered to be my VAL. I have never used this technique though so I'm hoping for some helpful tips.


Background:Friends of a friend are renewing their wedding vows and throwing a party at their house to celebrate. They want someone (me) to photpgraph their event making sure to "capture the moments". Since I'll be moving around a lot I plan on using on-camera flash (sorry strobists [:(] but I'm still building my lighting kit...and skills!).


Setup: 50D,EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS and580EX II with Sto-Fen Omni-Bounce. (I will have a number of other lenses at my disposal but this setup will be my go-to. I will also havean EF 50mm f/1.4 mounted to an additional body for available light stuff). My personal experience with this setup is that it provides a very soft and predictable light (maybe boring, butwell suitedfor this application [:D]). What I was considering though (since I'll have an assistant) was to mount a 430EX to a monopod and have my wife run around in hopes of providing some rim/subject separation. Thoughts???


Triggering: Since I am still waiting for my CTR-301Ps to arrive I will be using Canon Wireless IR via my on-camera 580EX II. This should work fine indoors in close quarters.


What am I looking for: Settings...I was thinking of setting a 2:1 or 4:1 ratio between the on-camera 580EX II and the monopod mounted 430EX? Placement...my original thought was to cross light so since my key is on-axis I was just thinking of placing the VAL behind my subjects or perhaps get crazy and have her at a 45 to the subjects?


Thanks in advance everyone!

[Sean Setters]

The only thing I would really question is using the 580EX on camera as your key. You might want to try the ratios the other way aroundfor a few shots and see which provides the best looking results.


My girlfriend has played the role of VAL during a photoshoot for two twin boys. She was holding a flash, umbrella swivel, receiver, and a 43" umbrella. It was a bit awkward to hold, and I wouldn't recommend it for parties. I realize this info won't necessarily help you for this particular party, but check out the informationavailable here ("http://pixsylated.com/2009/05/longarm-and-metalhead/) that shows you howyou mightmaximize your VAL's usefulness in the future. I've already purchased the painter's pole and Kacey Adapter (both are in the mail as we speak). I have a small softbox, however, I've purchased a small (25") umbrella to use instead (I figured it would be lighter and easier to handle--and the spill might actuallybe beneficial in this situation. The umbrella hasn't shipped yet, but I should have it in a couple of weeks or so.

[Chuck Lee]

Settings...I was thinking of setting a 2:1 or 4:1 ratio between the on-camera 580EX II and the monopod mounted 430EX? Placement...my original thought was to cross light so since my key is on-axis I was just thinking of placing the VAL behind my subjects or perhaps get crazy and have her at a 45 to the subjects?


Sounds like fun. I too am thinking about the "VAL" alternative.


Your rim light IMHO needs to be snooted or you will becasting light on background objects where you may not want it.A 20 deg grid or 8" honl snoot would work great, high and to the rear of whoever you are shooting. 30-45 back of either side will keep the flash from causing flare. I like 4:1. Rim, back and hair light. I think stronger and it gets annoying. It is however great for sport pics where the rim can be twice as bright as the main and usually comes from both sides.


Another interesting setup would be to have your VAL play main light and your on camera flash play bounce fill or on axis fill. There the ratios would be 2:1 or 3:1 - VAL:OnCam. The trick would be triggering with IR. There may be enough wall to bounce the IR and trigger the VAL light. Never used it so I don't know for sure. It'd be worth experimenting. A foldable softbox on the VAL flash would help soften the main and provide a more natural look.


Lastly, never underestimate the power of bounce flash. Have your VAL point the bare flash up into a corner of the room behind and to the right or left of your subject(s) and at the same time use your omnibounce in a similar fashion. Lot's of soft ambient with a little sharp from the on camera. Looks great!! My wife and I use Dem flip flash for bounce fill control and It works great. A higher ISO of 640 - 800 will get you more evenly lit natural looking results. I'm never afraid to push the ISO up when doing those kinds of shots. I'll dial my 5D to 1600 when I'm in a large dark resturant or hall. The wonderful thing about flash is it allows you to get the light where you want it.


P.S. Do you have your gel kit? You might want to have some CTO, 1/2 CTO gels to balance for incandescent lighting.


Play around with scenerios at home then go have fun! The opportunity to excel awaits!

[peety3]

Setup: 50D,EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS and580EX II with Sto-Fen Omni-Bounce. (I will have a number of other lenses at my disposal but this setup will be my go-to. I will also havean EF 50mm f/1.4 mounted to an additional body for available light stuff). My personal experience with this setup is that it provides a very soft and predictable light (maybe boring, butwell suitedfor this application /emoticons/emotion-2.gif). What I was considering though (since I'll have an assistant) was to mount a 430EX to a monopod and have my wife run around in hopes of providing some rim/subject separation. Thoughts???


What am I looking for: Settings...I was thinking of setting a 2:1 or 4:1 ratio between the on-camera 580EX II and the monopod mounted 430EX? Placement...my original thought was to cross light so since my key is on-axis I was just thinking of placing the VAL behind my subjects or perhaps get crazy and have her at a 45 to the subjects?





I'd say make your photography match the emotion and structure of the moment. During formal ceremony, go with a more formal lighting rig - VAL with flash and umbrella as key light, you shooting with on-camera as light fill, perhaps a 1:4 ratio to start. Amongst the crowd, maybe lose the umbrella so you can hit a wider variety of solo/small group/table shots. For casual shooting, strike a balance between your go-to setup (on-camera flash only, Sto-Fen, etc.) and creative lighting.


Spend some time before the event getting your flash gelling plan together. Consider keeping your main flash (off-camera, when you're using it; on-camera when you're not) about "1/4 more CTO" (warmer) than your ambient light, and any secondary flashes should be gelled to match ambient. If shooting in fluorescent light, add 1/4 or 1/2 plus-green to your flashes, AND use your CTO gels to control warmth/coolness (it took me months to finally realize that warm/cool and icky-green/not-so-icky are two different dimensions in the color-correction world).

[Chuck Lee]

(it took me months to finally realize that warm/cool and icky-green/not-so-icky are two different dimensions in the color-correction world).


Amen Brother!!

[Chuck Lee]

(it took me months to finally realize that warm/cool and icky-green/not-so-icky are two different dimensions in the color-correction world).


Amen Brother!!

[Mark Elberson]

I just pulled a "Setters"...by that I mean typed up a lengthy post which was meticulously put together and accidentally hit the back button on my browser which completely killed it!!! I many less words, the gist of it was, thank you everyone for your great advice!


Sean, would you suggest I use my 580 as fill and my 430 as key?


Chuck & Peety, I have not placed my order with www.photogels.com ("http://www.photogels.com) yet so unfortunately I have no gel plan :-( I also don't have a snoot (I just got serious about strobism and I'm still piecing my kit together). Would you just recommend that I set my zoom to 105mm as a band aid?

[peety3]

Sean, would you suggest I use my 580 as fill and my 430 as key?


Chuck & Peety, I have not placed my order with www.photogels.com ("http://www.photogels.com) yet so unfortunately I have no gel plan :-( I also don't have a snoot (I just got serious about strobism and I'm still piecing my kit together). Would you just recommend that I set my zoom to 105mm as a band aid?
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The 580 has to be on-camera as trigger, and since off-camera flash is "better", the 430 becomes the key or main light.


Any theater supply houses in town that might have gels, or colleges with a theater department where you could bribe away some gels, maybe in promise to replace them with colors that they want? ;) Might your local camera store carry some? You'd be looking for Rosco 3409 (1/4 CTO), 3408 (1/2 CTO), and 3407 (CTO) to start. Later you might want to add 3316 (1/4 plusgreen) and 3315 (1/2 plusgreen) in case you're under fluorescents. (I buy sheets and have my scrapbooker girlfriend cut them to size and add velcro, or just cut them and hold them in place behind a pre-velcro'd sheet of diffusion gel.)


For snoots, you could do the strobist thing and just use a cereal box. :)


Do you have a gray card? I'd get one if you don't have one. It'll make a lot of difference when white balancing, no matter how you go about white balancing (and I do hope you plan on doing some form of white balance, either before or during&amp;after).

[Mark Elberson]

Do you have a gray card? I'd get one if you don't have one. It'll make a lot of difference when white balancing, no matter how you go about white balancing (and I do hope you plan on doing some form of white balance, either before or during&amp;after).
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Finally...yes, I do have a gray card :-) I may set a custom white balance but odds are I'll tweak it in post. I've had more luck that way. Either way I will definitely shoot the gray card each time my light source changes drastically.

[Chuck Lee]

Sean, would you suggest I use my 580 as fill and my 430 as key?


Mark, other than a few high end functions there's no difference between the two. I think the Guide #'s the same. The idea is that you get a more natural studio style look when the key is off to the side and higher than the subject. The on-camera flash will need to trigger the off camera flash and that is what the 580 is built to do. It does not mean that you can't turn the power down an use it for a on-axis fill.



I have not placed my order with www.photogels.com ("http://www.photogels.com/) yet so unfortunately I have no gel plan


see if MPEX ("http://www.mpex.com/browse.cfm/4,13760.html)can ship these to you next day. Or at least like peety said, see if you can find some CTO at a nearby camera/video store.



Would you just recommend that I set my zoom to 105mm as a band aid?


Even then, you take the chance of flaring the lens if the flash is behind the subject. You need someway of keeping that light from hitting the lens and the absolute best way to do that is with a grid. As peety said you can easily make one from a small cereal box wrapped with black tape. Froot Loops tonight anyone?.....[:D]

[peety3]

Mark, other than a few high end functions there's no difference between the two. I think the Guide #'s the same. The idea is that you get a more natural studio style look when the key is off to the side and higher than the subject. The on-camera flash will need to trigger the off camera flash and that is what the 580 is built to do. It does not mean that you can't turn the power down an use it for a on-axis fill.





Chuck, Canon has a sneaky way of embedding guide number into its product names. The 430 has a guide number of 43 (meters, at ISO 100 and f/1). The 580 has a guide number of 58 (meters, at ISO 100 and f/1). So, I guess the model number is the guide number in decimeters? ;) (And the 580 adds full rotation head, external battery input, PC input, auto-thyristor flash, and the catchlight panel.)

[Chuck Lee]

Canon has a sneaky way of embedding guide number into its product names


Thanks peety, That's why I always use the phrase "I think the....."


So, inorder to balance the two Mark will need to do a little calculating. So the 430 has 43/58 the power of the 580? Is that correct?


Rounded out with about a 1/3stop margin of error and I'd say 2/3 the power. Correct? So, to get a 2:1 ratioof the 430 to the 580 (that would be the 430 used as the key) Mark would need to set the 430 at full and the 580 to 1/4 power. Oh, but wait, We haven't accounted for the subject distance. Dang, this is going to get confusing.


That's what makes using Vivitars so much fun!! They're identical.


Mark, practice at home the best you can. Good Luck and God Bless you brother.....


peety?........what say you?

[peety3]

So, inorder to balance the two Mark will need to do a little calculating. So the 430 has 43/58 the power of the 580? Is that correct?


Rounded out with about a 1/3stop margin of error and I'd say 2/3 the power. Correct? So, to get a 2:1 ratioof the 430 to the 580 (that would be the 430 used as the key) Mark would need to set the 430 at full and the 580 to 1/4 power. Oh, but wait, We haven't accounted for the subject distance. Dang, this is going to get confusing.





I think/suspect he's going to work E-TTL since he's constantly mobile. In that case, the camera meter will see the intensity of the A group (i.e. the 580 on-camera) and the intensity of the B group (i.e. the 430 off-camera), figure out how much variation is needed to achieve a 1:4 ratio, and command that in time for the actual exposure. A 1:4 ratio means the 430 will be asked to provide 4x as much (metered) light, but it might be closer to the subjects so it's all a guess.


Think of it this way: you'll wish the 430 would beep when ready again. :) If it's ready (the focus assist lamp will blink when in slave mode and ready) in &lt;=2 seconds, you're probably at or below half-power, and that's a good thing.

[Sean Setters]

I just pulled a "Setters"...by that I mean typed up a lengthy post which was meticulously put together and accidentally hit the back button on my browser which completely killed it!!!


I laughed for a good 15 seconds straight after reading that. :-)

[peety3]

I just pulled a "Setters"...by that I mean typed up a lengthy post which was meticulously put together and accidentally hit the back button on my browser which completely killed it!!!


I laughed for a good 15 seconds straight after reading that. :-)
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Yeah, but not nearly as much as a post on POTN a few years ago.


Guy was at work, his wife as at home, and a family friend had stopped by the house. They were talking cameras, and wife wanted to show friend her hubby's camera. Wife calls hubby at work, asks where the camera bag is, he tells her.


After work, hubby gets home, and wife asks him "why do you have three cameras?!!!" Hubby thinks to himself, "sweet, she ONLY found three of the cameras!"


All those in favor, raise your right hand and say "that's me!" :)

[Mark Elberson]

I think/suspect he's going to work E-TTL since he's constantly mobile. In that case, the camera meter will see the intensity of the A group (i.e. the 580 on-camera) and the intensity of the B group (i.e. the 430 off-camera), figure out how much variation is needed to achieve a 1:4 ratio, and command that in time for the actual exposure. A 1:4 ratio means the 430 will be asked to provide 4x as much (metered) light, but it might be closer to the subjects so it's all a guess.


Think of it this way: you'll wish the 430 would beep when ready again. :) If it's ready (the focus assist lamp will blink when in slave mode and ready) in &lt;=2 seconds, you're probably at or below half-power, and that's a good thing.
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You're right. I won't be taking too many "formal/posed" shots so I'll be moving around a lot which is why I plan on using E-TTL. Ihoping that when using E-TTL it did the math for you but does the 580 know that it's triggering a 430 as opposed to a 420 or even another 580?

[peety3]

You're right. I won't be taking too many "formal/posed" shots so I'll be moving around a lot which is why I plan on using E-TTL. Ihoping that when using E-TTL it did the math for you but does the 580 know that it's triggering a 430 as opposed to a 420 or even another 580?
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The trigger doesn't know and doesn't care. You can easily have a bank of 12 flashes (or up to three, as Canon wireless supports three groups A/B/C). During the E-TTL process, the group fires a test flash at a low power (maybe 1/32, I don't know if this is public knowledge at all) and the camera meters the result. Every flash in the group fires at 1/32 for the test flash. The camera figures out what power level is needed, and commands the group to fire at that power. If the power level is 1/8th, then every flash in that group will fire at 1/8th for the picture. If you had a 580 and a 430 in that group, they'd each fire at 1/8th, so there would be less light coming from the 430 than the 580, but the camera would be happy.


This shot was two 580s above (side-by-side, into a shoot-through umbrella, gelled purpley with Rosco 59 or 358 for a moonlit look) and a third 580 off-camera-right, just above camera height, snooted with a full CTO gel for sunset look. The moonlight 580s were in group A, and the sunset 580 was group B. I couldn't get enough light for the moonlight, so I punted to a second flash.


http://photos.templin.org/albums/hotchoc08a/HotChoc0001.sized.jpg

[Mark Elberson]

The trigger doesn't know and doesn't care. You can easily have a bank of 12 flashes (or up to three, as Canon wireless supports three groups A/B/C). During the E-TTL process, the group fires a test flash at a low power (maybe 1/32, I don't know if this is public knowledge at all) and the camera meters the result. Every flash in the group fires at 1/32 for the test flash. The camera figures out what power level is needed, and commands the group to fire at that power. If the power level is 1/8th, then every flash in that group will fire at 1/8th for the picture. If you had a 580 and a 430 in that group, they'd each fire at 1/8th, so there would be less light coming from the 430 than the 580, but the camera would be happy.
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<p style="CLEAR: both"]Doy! I forgot about the test flash [:$]
<p style="CLEAR: both"]Cool pic by the way. I love the tone. It feels like wintery light.