Night Photography

[John Hinton]

I recently took some night photos of our local fair. Because of crowd conditions I had to rely on IS to get the shot. I used a Canon 30D with the 24 -105mm f/4 lens. I was using aperature priority and shooting slightly to the right. It became evident that I was using the wrong lens, and possibly wrong settings.


While the resulting photos were ok, they were also eh . . . Stop motion was virtually impossible, which isn't always bad, I understand. I was able to get some lighting "pop" with post-processing as well as toning down, or lighting up the crowd as the situation warranted.


I am seeking some input as to what lens and settings would be recommended for this type of venue. I would be looking to incorporate colorful neon lighting enmasse, dark crowd scenes and light crowd scenes. Hopefully I have made some sense here.


Any assistance is always appreciated.


Pax,


John

[John Hinton]

I forgot to add, no flash.


Mea Culpa,


John

[Chuck Lee]

I recently took some night photos of our local fair. Because of crowd conditions I had to rely on IS to get the shot. I used a Canon 30D with the 24 -105mm f/4 lens. I was using aperature priority and shooting slightly to the right. It became evident that I was using the wrong lens, and possibly wrong settings.


John, sorry to hear your having trouble.


It is always helpful if you postan example or at least tell us what camera settings you were using.


ISO:


Aperture:


Shutter Speed:


Exposure Compensation: (you said you were shooting ETTR) tip 1: night scenes are very dark overall. You want to EETL like a black cat in the coal mine. ETTR is for white dog in the snow and to increase the dynamic range recorded when shooting in RAW.

[Firesteel]

If you can't use a tripodor need to stop motion, you need to boost your ISO and/or get a fast prime lens (sometimes both).The 50mm f1.8 might be a good place to start, especially if you are not sure about what focal length you need. It is 2 1/3 stops faster than your f4. The 50mm f1.4 is a full 3 stops faster than f4.

[Vlad Xp]

John,

The answer to "What lens and settings should be used" completely depends on what you're trying to achieve when capturing your images. Depending on the circumstance and available light, some results may be difficult or impossible to attain because of the variables involved.

You mentioned that some of your results indicate that you used the wrong lens. Would you say so because your lens did not allow you to capture the wide enough area, not let you zoom in far enough, or because the minimum aperture (f/4) of the 24-105 forced you to use longer shutter speed because of low light conditions?

Again, the lens and the settings selection always start with your subject, and what you want to capture that subject doing.

Stop motion of the moving subject is be done with a shutter speed of 1/125th of second, or higher depending on how fast your subject is moving. In low light, you'll have to set you ISO way high, and aperture at its widest setting, to use such shutter speed.

Neon lights on the rides are not bright enough to shoot hand-held, unless, again, you push your ISO to almost its highest limit. Besides, you may want some light trails created by such lights on the moving objects to make the composition more interesting. That definitely will require a relatively long shutter speed - such that it's not usable for hand-holding, no matter if you have IS on the lens or not. Yes, the crowd at the fair may inhibit the use of the tripod. In that case, Find a stationery object, put a camera on it. Set your camera on Manual: aperture f/5.6, ISO 100, shutter 10 seconds, 2-second self-timer, and see what happens. If the scene is not bright enough, increase the shutter speed.

I hope this helps, and as Chuck mentioned, it would help to see some of your shots.

[John Hinton]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2607/3986619879_ac6e7aac99_o.jpg


Sorry for the long delay. Here is example one. I liked the composition, but feel that the overall photo could be improved.



<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" id="Inbox"]
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Camera:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


Canon EOS 30D (http://community.the-digital-picture.com/cameras/canon/eos_30d/]<span style="color: #0063dc;)
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Exposure:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


0.167 sec (1/6)
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Aperture:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


f/7.1
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Focal Length:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


24 mm
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>


ISO Speed:
</td>
<td>


800
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>



Any suggestions?

[John Hinton]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2461/3987371866_77e3e2f8d2_o.jpg





Sample Two



<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" id="Inbox"]
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Camera:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


Canon EOS 30D (http://community.the-digital-picture.com/cameras/canon/eos_30d/]<span style="color: #0063dc;)
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Exposure:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


0.067 sec (1/15)
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Aperture:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


f/7.1
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]


Focal Length:
</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]


24 mm
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>


ISO Speed:
</td>
<td>


800
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

[John Hinton]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3533/3986618907_0f53749678_o.jpg


Sample Three. Thanks for any replies.



<table width="100%" cellspacing="0" id="Inbox"]
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]Camera:</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]Canon EOS 30D (http://community.the-digital-picture.com/cameras/canon/eos_30d/]<span style="color: #0063dc;)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]Exposure:</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]0.05 sec (1/20)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]Aperture:</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]f/7.1</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="30%" style="font-size: 120%;"]Focal Length:</td>
<td style="font-size: 120%;"]35 mm</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>ISO Speed:</td>
<td>800</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

[John Hinton]

And finally, for anyone wishing to further examine my blundering around in the dark:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_hinton/ ("http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_hinton/)


EXIF data is available for all photographs posted.


Thanks everyone,


John

[mattsartin]

for starters, open the aperture on that lens all the way up, your shots were @ f/7.1, with that lens f/4 is 1 2/3 stops faster. if you want to stop action and be able to shoot wide angle at a fair, i would say your best bet for lenses would be 24mm f/1.4 L or the 35mm f/1.4 L

[John Hinton]

Thanks, Matt. You are right about opening the aperature; not checking and rechecking my settings is a failing I need to concentrate on more. I agree with getting glass with a faster aperature.


Thanks for your suggestions.


John

[John Hinton]

sigh...aperture. I can spell. I can.

[Fast Glass]

Next time try Manual control, you dont' have too worry about exposure as much. As long as your shooting the same subject you will have the same exposure, it makes it a lot easier to post-processe the pictures with the exposure consistant.

[Fast Glass]

As long as your notreallyshooting them, you know bang, bang!!! LOL LOL LOL

[mattsartin]

sigh...aperture. I can spell. I can.






i believe you [:)]

[Alan]

What constitutes a "proper" exposure when taking night shots? The histogram? Eye-balling it? I saw one guy describe the method as follows: keep lengthening the shutter speed til it "looks right" in the viewfinder.


When shooting in daylight, I can look at the histogram, and know if I'm over/under exposing. But, with these type of shots (especially with ones with less light in the scene), I often take multiple shots, then choose the one that looks closely to the way I remember it. And, that's usually after I look at the images post processing.


Night photography is a challenge.

[Daniel Browning]

What constitutes a "proper" exposure when taking night shots?


Same as daylight photography. The proper exposure is the one that gives you the results you want. [:)] Now, if you ask us which exposure will give us the results you want, then you have to first tell us what you want. [;)]



Night photography is a challenge.


Agreed!

[Alan]

/emoticons/emotion-1.gif Now, if you ask us which exposure will give us the results you want, then you have to first tell us what you want. /emoticons/emotion-5.gif
<div style="clear: both;"]</div>





Okay, here goes. Which one do I want? (Don't say "none of them," because you'd be right. This is for illustrative purposes only!) [:D]


/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.25.34.1/under.jpg


/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.25.34.1/middle.jpg


/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.25.34.1/over.jpg





Straight out of Adobe Camera Raw, to a jpg, with the standard settings in ACR.


I don't like any of them.

[Chuck Lee]

sigh...aperture. I can spell. I can


John,


"Aperature" is by far my most miss-spelled word on the forums.


I was at a fair recently........Sept 29th.....I too likethe lights: This is my third year shooting this fair...


Here's one that blows my mind....look at the settings: The candy striped post on the far left is a ride called Extreme. You can see legs hanging from the suspended benches. It was moving pretty fast.


http://chucklee.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p825353520-3.jpg


Canon EOS 5D, wt EF <span class="nowrap"]50 f1.4, <span class="nowrap"]f/2.8, <span class="nowrap"]1/250, <span class="nowrap"]ISO 400, <span class="nowrap"]No FlashShows what fast prime glass can do.


I've got an obsession with shooting concession stands:


http://chucklee.zenfolio.com/img/v8/p910454836-3.jpg


Canon EOS 5D, wt EF <span class="nowrap"]50 f1.4, <span class="nowrap"]f/2.8 @ <span class="nowrap"]50 mm, <span class="nowrap"]1/200, <span class="nowrap"]ISO 800, <span class="nowrap"]No Flash


http://chucklee.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p562536604-3.jpg


Canon EOS 5D, wt EF <span class="nowrap"]50 f1.4, <span class="nowrap"]f/2.8 @ <span class="nowrap"]50 mm, <span class="nowrap"]1/320, <span class="nowrap"]ISO 800, <span class="nowrap"]No Flash

[btaylor]

Wow Chuck those are great. Almost looks like HDR. I agree - fast primes are brilliant.

[Chuck Lee]

Almost looks like HDR


Thanks btaylor. The new auto dodge feature in SilkyPix Pro ("http://www.shortcutinc.com/cms/index.php?id=250?spixpro=1&amp;tabs=0) really helps.It's the closest thing to auto HDR I've ever used. Of course, A 5D @ ISO 800 or lesswith a 50 1.4 @ f2.8 doesn't hurt.

[Alan]

Chuck, those are outstanding. Now....that's what I'm talking about!!! [Y]


You've got the touch!

[John Hinton]

I hate you Chuck.


Love, John

[Chuck Lee]

I hate you Chuck.


LOL........priceless!!


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]"I create feelings in others that they themselves don't understand." Lightning McQueen, Cars


Thanks for hating me........[:D] LOL

[Maleko]

That last one chuck is perfect!

[Alan]

Chuck, even though this is an older thread, a couple of more questions on your night shots at this fair.


Did you hand hold these? Monopod? Tripod?


Was it "pitch black" night, or dusk, on some of the shots?


If you did use a tripod, was that a problem with all the people walking around the area?


Thanks!

[Chuck Lee]

Chuck, even though this is an older thread, a couple of more questions on your night shots at this fair.



Thanks for the inquiry Alan. Sorry for the delayed response.


These were all handheld. Notice the shutter speeds.


It was night. You can see the black sky in the first two. The last one has the side of a building in the background.


#1 @ 7:32 PM 35 minutes after sunset (6:57PM). (That is the sky behind the scene)


#2 @ 7:39 PM(That is the sky behind the scene)


#3 @ 7:40 PM


It's quitea testimony to the light gathering capabilities of the 5D with the EF-50 1.4 @ f/2.8.


For comparison, this one was taken at 7:17 PM.


http://ChuckLee.zenfolio.com/img/v0/p633909387-3.jpg


Canon EOS 5D, EF 28-70 f2.8L, <span class="nowrap"]f/4 @ <span class="nowrap"]28 mm, <span class="nowrap"]1/125, <span class="nowrap"]ISO 1600, <span class="nowrap"]No Flash

[Alan]

Thanks, Chuck. I did notice the shutter speeds, but I wanted to confirm the handheld.


That makes it easier when milling around a bunch of people, too.


With my 50 f/1.4 and 5DMk2, I'm gonna have fun when the fair rolls around next year. [:D]

[Chuck Lee]

With my 50 f/1.4 and 5DMk2, I'm gonna have fun when the fair rolls around next year.


Oh Yeah!!


P.S. - You had asked:


"What constitutes a "proper" exposure when taking night shots? The histogram? Eye-balling it? I saw one guy describe the method as follows: keep lengthening the shutter speed til it "looks right" in the viewfinder."


I shot all of my fair pictures in Av mode with center weighted metering. I shot in raw and post processed with SilkyPix DS3. From what I remember, I did little exposure compensation.


Now, does this apply to all night shots? No. In these examples I have a very bright, well lit object centered in the frame. Some night shots are fairly dark overall with light spotted about. There are a few ways to handle it. First, set exposure compensation more negative as the total overall scene gets darker. Your camera's meter always wants to expose to 18 % gray. Your first photo in that shopping mall sign series is the most properly exposed. I know you don't like it, but it is the dynamic range of the camera that you have to shoot for. Notice the blue sign at the bottom behind the mall sign. You can see that it is blown out in thenext two. Also, look through the viewfinder and take shutter speed readings of various parts of the scene. As you scan from dark areas to light areas, how much does your shutter speed change. If it doubles then that is one stop. If it quadruples, that's two and so on and so forth. You can get a feeling of the "dynamic range" of the lighting and can better compensate for it. In the last shot I posted of that ride with the blue sky, I probably aimed the center area of the camera at the brightly lit portion of the ride and hit the AE lock button before backing out composing and taking the shot. I say probably because that's what I practice most of the time when in those kinds of lighting situations. I can literally freeze the shutter speed at any setting based on the brightness of different areas in the scene. If you scan around you can easily decide which areas you can stand to be blown out and which areas you don't mind are in the shadows. I am still teaching myself to use the HUD info in the viewfinder and to always check it as I am composing a shot. I hate taking a great photo only to later discover than the lighting had changed and the shutter speed was 1/30th @ 200mm and the terrific shot I took is crap because of motion blur. I kick myself thinking "If I'd only paid attention". It's a learning process thathopefully becomesgood habit.


Alan,I'd love to have a MkII. Have a great time at the fair!!

[Alan]

Chuck, you are a font of information (or, is it fount?). Either way, that little vignette tutorial was extremely useful.


I'll burn these suggestions into my grey matter hard drive.


I also have the original 5D, and that camera still produces stunning images. Your examples show how the 5D really shines. I'll probably bring it with me, and slap my 24-70 2.8 onto it, just in case.


Thanks again.