Chuck Westfall's October Tech Tips - Attention 7D Owners

[Mark Elberson]

Can someone with a 7D verify that auto ISO actually works in Manual Mode? This to me is a MAJOR break through giving us "Aperture and Shutter Priority" auto exposure!


"The newly released EOS 7D goes one step further by making Auto ISO in Manual mode fully variable even when Live View is turned off." ("http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0910/tech-tips.html)

[Daniel Browning]

I've seen it verified on other forums, but I'll wait for the final word (Bryan's review). This is something I've been waiting a long time for. I use my 5D2 in liveview mode *just* to get this feature.

[Don Burkett]

Do you suspect Chuck Westfall is wrong?


Brian has a link to the owners manual posted at the end of his preliminary review. Read page 63

[Oren]

Don, you've got a 7D right? can't you confirm that for Mark? [:P]


Anyway, that's again one more stupid and annoying thing by Canon - couldn't they enable this feature on my 50D as well? I can bet my arm that it's as simple as firmwere update - damn you Canon!

[Mark Elberson]

Anyway, that's again one more stupid and annoying thing by Canon - couldn't they enable this feature on my 50D as well? I can bet my arm that it's as simple as firmwere update - damn you Canon!
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I couldn't agree more! "The first EOS with variable Auto ISO in Manual mode was the EOS 5D Mark II when updated to Firmware Version 1.1.0 and used in Live View or Movie Mode" so why not give us an update for our 50D?!?! Don't restrict it just to Live View though :-)

[Daniel Browning]

Anyway, that's again one more stupid and annoying thing by Canon - couldn't they enable this feature on my 50D as well? I can bet my arm that it's as simple as firmwere update - damn you Canon!


The Digital Cinema Society has a presentation on the 5D2 by Tim Smith, Canon Product Manager for Digital Imaging. You can watch the video online ("http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/content.php?page=Lighting%20Workshop). In it, he says that in all his years of working at Canon, he has never once seen them add a new feature through firmware. The 5D2 firmware was the first exception.

[Ragingblues]

I think the 50D owners here need to check again.... as my 50D does have Auto ISO in Manual mode. This would also mean that the 5D MkII is not the first Canon cam to offer this feature. I'm running firmware version 1.0.7, butalready had this feature when I got the camera last December.


~ Ken

[Daniel Browning]

my 50D does have Auto ISO in Manual mode


I think you are mistaken. When you set Auto ISO in manual mode with no flash, the 50D fixes the ISO at 400 and never changes it.

[Ragingblues]

No, I probably missed something in the above posts that indicated that people were talking about using it in manual, without a flash. I know I've taken many shots in manual using a flash, and often times left the ISO up to the camera. I don't recall any specific shots in that configuration without a flash, so I'll take your word on that part of it.


~ Ken

[apersson850]

Yes, I can happily report that with the 7D, the ISO can be fully automatic in M mode as well.


If you set it to Auto, then the ISO will vary in order to keep the exposure meter needle centered, with the shutter speed and aperture you selected. If the auto ISO function reaches one of the limits (the range is 100-3200), then the exposure meter needle will start to wander off in either direction. But not until then.


So you can set it at 1/500 and f/8, and all the way down to what otherwise would have required 1/15 s, the camera will increase the ISO up to 3200 instead.

[Daniel Browning]

Thanks. It's very nice to have that confirmed. Can you use "ISO compensation" with Auto ISO? That is, is it possible to set +1 "EC" and cause it to set the ISO by one stop higher than normal? Just curious,

[apersson850]

You can't set any exposure compensation in manual mode, since the rear wheel is busy controlling the aperture. Hence that's not possible.


You can set AEB in manual mode, though, but it changes the shutter speed, not the ISO, even if the ISO is in automatic mode.

[Jon Ruyle]

You can't set any exposure compensation in manual mode, since the rear wheel is busy controlling the aperture. Hence that's not possible.


You can set AEB in manual mode, though, but it changes the shutter speed, not the ISO, even if the ISO is in automatic mode.





Lame!


I'm aware that cameras and camera software are complicated beasts, and involve many difficulties we on the sidelines cannot imagine. And manual mode for the 7D sounds like a huge improvement over "auto iso" on older cameras. But there is an obvious way "auto iso" should work. Why do they refuse to give it to us?

[Oren]

You cannot set EC not because the wheels are busy lol - the camera has enough buttons, don't worry. You cannot set EC simply because it does not make sense: you can control both aperture and shutter and you see where the light metering is - need +1 EC? change the aperture/shutter until you see the light metering needle at +1 [:P]

[Mark Elberson]

You cannot set EC simply because it does not make sense: you can control both aperture and shutter and you see where the light metering is - need +1 EC? change the aperture/shutter until you see the light metering needle at +1 /emoticons/emotion-4.gif
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I'm sure you're fully aware of this Oren, but for those who are not, the point is with a true "auto ISO" in Manual Mode, you should be able to set the aperture and shutter speed and have only the ISO be variable...even if you would like to dial in some EC. If I have my camera set to f/5.6 and 1/500 but the meter seems to be "off" by 1 stop then I should be able to dial in +1 EC and have the iso jump from 100 to 200 and my aperture remain at f/5.6 and my shutter speed remain at 1/500 because artistically f/4 is not enough DOF and 1/250 won't stop the action that I am wishing to stop [:D]

[Oren]

You are right Mark, I also would like to see this feature. Anyway, what I said was something else - I just wanted to mention that there is no point in being able to set EC by using, say, the rear wheel as we do in Av and Tv since we already set the aperture and shutter. Of course if we could have truly auto ISO in Manual mode then being able to set EC would make sense, but I'm sure that the problem is not "not enough buttons" [:P]


BTW Mark, have you got a Feisol (or any other) tripod by now? (if memory servers me right, you were looking into buying one)

[Daniel Browning]

You can't set any exposure compensation in manual mode, since the rear wheel is busy controlling the aperture. Hence that's not possible.


Yeah, that's why I call it "ISO compensation", because it wouldn't change the exposure at all, just the ISO. My idea for controlling it is to hold down the "set" button while you spin the top wheel to set ISO compensation (since the top wheel normally controls ISO already).



I'm aware that cameras and camera software
are complicated beasts, and involve many difficulties we on the
sidelines cannot imagine. And manual mode for the 7D sounds like a
huge improvement over "auto iso" on older cameras. But there is an
obvious way "auto iso" should work. Why do they refuse to give it to
us?


:D Aren't customers awesome? Think of it from Canon's point of view:

Us: We want Auto ISO! We want Auto ISO!
Canon: FINE! Here's your stinking Auto ISO.
Us: Thanks, but it doesn't work in Manual mode.
Canon: OK, OK. Here, now it works in Manual mode.
Us: Thanks again, but it doesn't have Auto ISO balance control.



I want to have full control over all the features in the camera.



You cannot set EC not because the wheels are busy
lol - the camera has enough buttons,


There are plenty of ways to make it work with the existing buttons, IMHO. Another example is to hold down the ISO button while spinning the rear wheel.



...don't worry. You cannot set EC
simply because it does not make sense:


Technically, we're not really talking about "EC", which is exposure compensation, but the equivalent concept applied to ISO (not exposure).



you can control both aperture
and shutter and you see where the light metering is - need +1 EC?
change the aperture/shutter until you see the light metering needle at
+1 /emoticons/emotion-4.gif


Mark already explained the benefit, but I'll explain a use case in more detail:

You're shooting in rapidly changing light.
Bright sunlight to dark shadow and back again in a matter of seconds.
You're working fast and furious to catch just the perfect moment.
You have a certain f-number that you want to use to get just the right DOF.
You have a certain shutter speed you want to get just the right amount of motion blur.



Now, what are your options?

Manual mode and manual ISO. This is OK, but what ISO do you use? In bright light, you want ISO 100. In the dark shadow you want ISO 1600. If you set it at 1600, the bright images will be blown out, if you set it at 100, the dark images will be far too noisy and unusable. If you change the ISO for each shot, you will miss the perfect moment to take the picture.
Manual mode and auto ISO with no ISO balance. Now you have the camera setting the ISO for you at a speed that is thousands of times faster than you could ever do manually. The only problem is that it is consistently using an ISO that is 2 stops higher than you want. Or two stops lower. Or anything except exactly what you want. Of course, if you were in Tv mode, you could simply adjust the camera to add or subtract a number of stops from the AE system. But Canon didn't provide any such control when using Auto ISO.
Manual mode and auto ISO with ISO balance. Now you have the same benefits as the above, except if you want to have a brighter image file (less highlight headroom), dial in +1 ISO balance. Or if the camera is using too high of an ISO, and you want it to be lower for all Auto ISO images in this circumstance, just dial in -2 and you will get ISO 800 instead of ISO 3200, the darker image that you want.



I hope that helps illustrate what we're talking about.

[Oren]

Daniel (and others) - with all the respect, have you read what I said? ...maybe it's just me I don't know... maybe I wasn't clear enough. I don't need explanation of what you want - I understand that and I'd like to see this feature as well (could have saved many great moments).


Daniel - the idea of holding down the "set" button while spinning the top wheel is a great example for "the camera has enough buttons, don't worry". I really like this idea and hope Canon will do it someday [:D]

[Mark Elberson]

BTW Mark, have you got a Feisol (or any other) tripod by now? (if memory servers me right, you were looking into buying one)
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Yep, here's what I got:
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"]<span style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 9pt;"]FEISOL CT-3342 Tripod (http://www.feisol.net/feisol-tournament-class-threesection-tripod-ct3342-with-tripod-p-30.html]<span style="color: #3366cc;)
FEISOL CB-50D Ball Head (http://www.feisol.net/feisol-ball-head-cb50d-with-release-plate-qp144750-p-9.html]<span style="color: #3366cc;)

So far I am very happy. The tripod is light as a feather and the ball head holds in whatever position I lock in. I have not experienced any "creep" yet which makes me very happy :-) I would certainly recommend it to anyone who asked! Now that it's starting to look like fall (autumn) where I live I am expecting that I will be using much more than I have. So far most of my use has been indoors. Once I am able to give it a much more thorough work out I may write a post about it since I often see people asking questions about FEISOL.

[Oren]

Sorry for the off topic... Mark - do you find it, when folded, too long or too big in diameter?

[Mark Elberson]

Sorry for the off topic... Mark - do you find it, when folded, too long or too big in diameter?
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Not at all [:)]

[Jon Ruyle]

My idea for controlling it is to hold down the "set" button while you spin the top wheel to set ISO compensation (since the top wheel normally controls ISO already).


Fine for a retrofit. But what I would like to see is another position on the dial. "Aperture priority" and "shutter priority" are legacy names from back before the camera could control iso. Aperture priority really means "camera picks the shutter." Shutter priority means "camera picks the the aperture." I'd like a knob for "camera picks iso" (and I specify the other two.)




Us: We want Auto ISO! We want Auto ISO!
Canon: FINE! Here's your stinking Auto ISO.
Us: Thanks, but it doesn't work in Manual mode.
Canon: OK, OK. Here, now it works in Manual mode.
Us: Thanks again, but it doesn't have Auto ISO balance control.





Then:


Canon: Okay, have your lousy Auto ISO balance control.


Us: Thanks yet again, but you made it so Auto ISO balance only works in live view mode.


Etc. [:)]

[apersson850]

I see what you mean. Previously, when Auto ISO wasn't working in manual mode, I saw little need for any EC in that mode. It would just offset the exposure meter, but you could just as well use +1 (or whatever) as a reference manually. Not so with Auto ISO.


Since you are in manual mode, you can't use exposure lock either, something which otherwise for the first time could make some sense, when ISO is automatic.


Besides, I didn't literally mean that there weren't enough buttons to make an EC in manual mode, just that the way you normally do it is indeed occupied with another task.