when shooting indoors in fairly low light, how do you set yout camera??

[jks_photo]

when shooting indoors and fairly low light is available how do you setup your camera???


What shooting mode do you prefer?


Do you use bounce flash?? flash diffusers??


What ISO speed do you use??





I just want to get a little insight on what other people are doing when shooting indoors so that I can hopefully improve my IQ when shooting indoors.


I use an XTi with 430ex and 24-70 2,8 lens. Yes i do bounce flash and use a garyfong clear diffuser. I usually shoot in AV mode. I find that ISO 400 is the highest usable ISO on my XTi.

[peety3]

In general, my approach is to shoot in Av with the widest aperture that gives me enough depth of field, and at the lowest ISO that gives me a fast-enough shutter speed to achieve no-shake or desired effect, regardless of light levels. If I have consistent-enough subject locations and safe light locations, I'll use 1-3 remote flashes on stands triggered by PocketWizards. If I don't have good conditions for remote flashes but I do have a good-enough ceiling, I'll use bounce flash. If I can't use bounce flash, I'll often go without flash. I have a pair of Sto-Fen diffusers but they rarely get used. More often I'll just use a small cut of Rosco 103 as a start, and an umbrella if I need more effect.

[ShutterbugJohan]

I don't hesitate to shoot at ISO 800-3200 on my 10D. I use a 580EX and 580EX II along with diffusers and bounce, depending on the situation. I shoot at ISO 100-400 when using the strobes. I also shoot a lot at f2.8-f4 indoors. Av mode, manual WB.

[Daniel Browning]

What shooting mode do you prefer?


Av for available light, M for video, C1 for flash (Manual), and C2, C3 for other customizations.



Do you use bounce flash?


Yes, if it's possible.



flash diffusers?


Usually, but not if I can do the job better with bounce alone.



What ISO speed do you use?


100 if I have enough light.


400 for most flash stuff.


1600 for low light. (Sometimes underexposed to the equivalent of ISO 25600.)

[jks_photo]

What shooting mode do you prefer?


Av for available light, M for video, C1 for flash (Manual), and C2, C3 for other customizations.



Do you use bounce flash?


Yes, if it's possible.



flash diffusers?


Usually, but not if I can do the job better with bounce alone.



What ISO speed do you use?


100 if I have enough light.


400 for most flash stuff.


1600 for low light. (Sometimes underexposed to the equivalent of ISO 25600.)
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Daniel,


i guess i got the ISO speed right, for i too shoot at 400 when using flash.


Could you please tell me.... when you go manual with your with-flash shots - at what power output do you set your flash to?? I know this varies depending on the model of the flash, i just want to get a general idea. Or by "manual" you mean setting th camer speed and opening manually and leave the flash in TTL mode?


Also can you give me somewhat of a guideline on how to compensate or measure the effective range of the flash when it is bounced? and when it has a diffuser on? and when it has a diffuser and bounced [like when you use a gary fong basically flash is always pointed upwards with the diffuser on.]?

[Sinh Nhut Nguyen]

All the setting has to boil down to giving mea fast-enough shutter speed to eliminate camera shake.


If I have to use ISO 3200, so be it. A noisy image is more usable than a noise-free-but-blurry image.


To me the shots and the moment are more important. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the noisein high ISO settings either, but when the moment calls and the only way I can get usuable image is to use the highest ISO, I will not hesitate to use it. If I don't use it I will get nothing!

[Daniel Browning]

Or by "manual" you mean setting th camer speed and opening manually and leave the flash in TTL mode?


I meant manual aperture and shutter with TTL flash. I'm not as advanced with flash as many other forum members around here. Here's on example: http://community.the-digital-picture.com/forums/t/2081.aspx ("/forums/t/2081.aspx)



Also can you give me somewhat of a guideline on how to compensate or measure the effective range of the flash when it is bounced?


Really the only thing you can do once you hit maximum power on the flash is up your ISO and use faster f-numbers. If I need higher FPS (quick recycle time) or there are high ceilings, I wont hesitate to use ISO 3200 with flash, at least until there is too much contamination from existing light.

[Dan Fleming]

I don't have an external flash so I diffuse my onboard flash using opteka's diffuser. I also shoot in Av mode so I can control the f-stop, the shutter sits at 1/200 by default because the flash is on!

[SupraSonic]

Mannual Mode , Boost ISO 400-800Speed 1/60 1/80 set to below exposure on Camera meteringwith flash .

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Hi jks_photo,


I&acute;m also using the XTi or 400D. I have an 580EX II flash. I have loaded a canon firmware hack to the cf-card and now have access to ISO 3200. Native ISO. I also got access to more advanced focus patterns and spot metering. It works great. You will find more info here: http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/400D if you are interested. It loads from the cf-card so it does not mess up the internal firmware.





About indoor shooting and use of flash with my 400D:


I am using the ISO that is necessary to give me sharp images. I have made great 13x19 prints shot with ISO 1600 and now that I got access to ISO 3200 I will not hesitate to use it if I need to. I am not concerned by noise at all. Remember that it is a big difference from what you see on your screen and what the image will look like when printed.





How do I use the flash:


Most of the time I use fill-flash. I shoot in manual mode, looking at the meter in the viewfinder, dialing inn a slight underexposure in the camera, dialing inn -1 2/3 on the flash and shoot. I then check the histogram and makes adjustments if necessary. I always bounce the flash. I experiment often, letting the flash bounce in different directions. I am also aware of other lightsources when I choose my "bouncing" direction. Blending lightsources can interesting. I do not have a diffuser. Maybe I will buy one someday.


Sometimes I choose not to use flash at all, just using available light. I set the ISO to max and shoot. Proper whitebalance is important not to blow one of the RGB channels under some types of light.

[jks_photo]

Hi Johnny,


read your post. I am interested in that firmware hack you mentioned.


just to clarify, won't it "mess" with my internal firmware?? What if I decide not to use it anymore, will my camera functions still be normal???

[Daniel Browning]

won't it "mess" with my internal firmware??


No. It doesn't overwrite any of the internal firmware.



What if I decide not to use it anymore, will my camera functions still be normal???


Yes. There are no guarantees, but I think it's very safe and you will be able to revert back to the Canon firmware with no problems.



I have loaded a canon firmware hack to
the cf-card and now have access to ISO 3200. Native ISO. ... now that I got access to ISO 3200 I will not hesitate to use it


For what it's worth, ISO 3200 is worse than ISO 1600 pushed 1 stop. It has the exact same amount of noise, but it has one stop of blown highlights. If you shoot raw, I advice to always use ISO 1600 with -1 EC instead of ISO 3200. My 5D2 has ISO 25,600, but ISO 1600 with -4 EC results in a far better picture than actually using the ISO 25,600 setting.

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Hi jks_photo,


As Daniel Browning already has written, I think this is safe. If you are afraid of your camera or if it still is under warranty you must think about it. My 400D has a 5 years warranty but I consider the hack very safe to use anyway. Read carefully what other members are saying before you make your desicion. The link I gave you has another link to a forum thread that discusses this in detail. You can find it here: http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php/topic,3290.0.html 17 pages with information. The community still consider this hack as "under development". New features can be added easily. You download a .fir file from here http://code.google.com/p/400d/downloads/list and replace it with the one already in the cf-card when new features are added. The latest file is dated 2009.09.13


In the initial process I think the hack is loading a small command line to the CMOS in your camera. That is all. This command line is "pointing" to the cf-card where the hack is. You can then boot the camera from the card. As soon as you format your card or uses a card without the hack the camera behaves like before. The question is if you can get rid of the command line that is in your cameras firmware if you are performing a flash using Canon&acute;s latest firmware v1.1.1. Some in the community say yes, some are uncertain.This is not a problem for me, I am going to use this hack as long as the camera is working. I already have 40.000+ clicks on it and when the shutter stop working it&acute;s time for an upgrade anyway.


About the 3200 ISO extension: The community says this is a native extension. Not a ISO 1600 underexposed 1 stop. I guess I have to take their word for it.


About the spotmetering extension: Works like a charm.


About the added focus frame patterns: This is in my opinion the most useful extension in the hack. I can set the focus points like you do in the 1-series and the 7D. I really like that option. You can use a zone setting, vertical setting, horizontal setting etc. A very nice feature when shooting moving subjects or when you want you to get the composition right.


Think about it before you make your desicion. I personally love it.





Best wishes,


Johnny

[Daniel Browning]

About the 3200 ISO extension: The community says this is a native extension. Not a ISO 1600 underexposed 1 stop. I guess I have to take their word for it.


Yes, it is a native extension. But that's my point: like all Canon cameras, the native extensions are bad. It's far better to avoid the native extensions and use ISO 1600 underexposed instead.

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Hi Daniel,


Can you explain what you mean by that? I know that you loose headroom and dynamic range as you climb up the ISO ladder but I have never heard that underexposure will give youless noise. I thought it was the opposite. I have never done a comparison though. I have sometimes set my camera to -2EV at ISO1600 simply because I needed the shutter speed. But the images needed a lot of work to become usable.





- Johnny

[Daniel Browning]

I have never heard that underexposure will give youless noise. I thought it was the opposite.


You are correct for all the other ISO settings. 200 has less noise than 100 -1 EC. 400 has less noise than 200 -1 EC and 100 -2 EC, so on and so forth.


But when you get to ISO 3200 it changes. ISO 3200 has the same noise as ISO 1600 -1 EC. But since 3200 throws away one full stop of highlights (1 stop less DR), it is bad.



I have sometimes set my camera to -2EV at ISO1600 simply because I needed the shutter speed. But the images needed a lot of work to become usable.


ISO 1600 with -2EV is the exact same as using an ISO 6400 setting, if your camera had one. The only difference is that ISO 6400 would throw away 2 stops of highlights for no reason, so 1600 is superior.


Canon did really great with most of their ISO settings, but some of them were horribly botched.

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Daniel,


Now I understand what you mean. We are talking about footroom, headroom and noise. ( http://www.qpcard.se/BizPart.aspx?tabId=75&amp;tci=128 )


I remember there was a lengthy but interesting discussion here 3-4 months ago. ( http://community.the-digital-picture.com/forums/t/1742.aspx?PageIndex=1 )





- Johnny

[jks_photo]

Hi guys,


thanks for all the input.


lately i took some pictures at ISO 800. Some of them I was able to shoot with available light. Will post them. Do please tell me what you think of them.


Hopefully I can get better pictures with all your help. Thanks!!

[jks_photo]

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shot at ISO 800 F2.8. Did some post processing in DPP. Brightened the image by about .6 and applied NR. It was taken at dusk.


what do you think??

[jks_photo]

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here's another one at ISO 800 F2.8. By the way both of the pictures were done in manual mode. No post processing wAS applied to this second photo.


Would you think it usable??

[Sean Setters]

I&acute;m also using the XTi or 400D. I have an 580EX II flash. I have loaded a canon firmware hack to the cf-card and now have access to ISO 3200. Native ISO. I also got access to more advanced focus patterns and spot metering. It works great. You will find more info here: http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/400D if you are interested. It loads from the cf-card so it does not mess up the internal firmware.


Wow, I just loaded the chdk firmware and it's fantastic! I love the more precise ISO increments as well as the handy focus patterns. Really brings new life to that camera. I knew they were working on implementing different things on the 40D, but I never thought to check on a chdk firmware for my XTi. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Hi jks_photo,


I think both photos are fine. Very nice colors, exposure looks spot on. My monitor are calibrated and in the first photo I can see details even in the deep shadows. You are doing well.


- Johnny

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Hi Sean,


I think new hacks will come for the 5D and 40D but that may take a while. I really like the new features that came with the hack. Will use my 400D as long as the shutter keep working.


- Johnny

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Hi Daniel,


I have been going through the reviews at dpreview, looking at the DR for most of Canon&acute;s DSLR&acute;s. You are right about the ISO settings above 1600, most of them drop sharply at that point. Only the 5D MII and the 7D are doing good above ISO 1600. Nikon is doing noticeably better. Even the "cheap" D5000 is doing exellent. Do you know the reason for this?


- Johnny

[Daniel Browning]

I have been going through the reviews at dpreview, looking at the DR for most of Canon&acute;s DSLR&acute;s.





Let me stop you right there. DPR's section on "dynamic range" is based entirely on JPEG with default settings. It has nothing to do with the actually dynamic range of the raw files or with non-default settings. It's worse than useless: it's highly wrong and misleading.


Even their "raw headroom" statements are unfactual. They're based on subjective opinions about how well the highlight guessing algorithm works in Adobe!


DPR has some good information, but some of it is very wrong, and dynamic range is one of those things.



You are right about the ISO settings above 1600, most of them drop sharply at that point. Only the 5D MII and the 7D are doing good above ISO 1600. Nikon is doing noticeably better. Even the "cheap" D5000 is doing exellent. Do you know the reason for this?


The reason is that DPR has no clue about dynamic range. They don't even know what they are measuring, let alone know what they should be measuring. Even if they started measuring it correctly, I doubt they would analyze it correctly.


DxoMark.com is not perfect, but they're a sight better than DPR when it comes to measuring noise and dynamic range.


Don't feel bad that you were misled. DPR is the most popular camera review web site in the world, so you would think that they at least get the basics right. Unfortunately that is not so.

[Johnny Rasmussen]

Daniel,


I don&acute;t feel bad at all. DPR is not my favorite site, I prefer The Imaging Resource for technical analysis. Do you think their methods are better?

[SupraSonic]

Mannual mode or Tv with flash attached

[Daniel Browning]

I prefer The Imaging Resource for technical analysis. Do you think their methods are better?


Yes.

[BCalkins]

I usually run in manual mode, setting a relatively low aperture (maybe a half stop or so from the maximum aperture - typically f/4.5 on my 24-105). For the shutter I either keep it at 1/250th if there is little ambient, or try to lower to what I can handhold comfortably - usually 1/60s or higher for semi telephoto. Then I use a flash in the hotshoe and bounce it off of whatever I can - cupboards, ceiling, walls, doors, etc. I use the flash exposure compensation to run the exposure up and down a bit if needed. I find this works better than diffusers, unless there is nothing to bounce off of. I usually shoot at ISO200 to get a bit more from the flash without needing full power.


I rarely use a fast prime wide open without flash indoors for family shots as they move too fast. For babies that lie still I do open up the aperture, ramp up the ISO and shoot at the highest shutter speed I can manage.


This is for my typically running around after the kids type shots. For something like a wedding, etc. that is indoors it is a whole different story (tending more towards higher ISO and no flash).


One thing I often wonder is if you are better to gain a shutter speed and underexpose to get more sharpness (at the expense of noise), or likewise go up an ISO stop. What is sharper looking in a print - faster shutter and higher ISO, or lower shutter speed/lower ISO?

[Daniel Browning]

One thing I often wonder is if you are better to gain a shutter speed and underexpose to get more sharpness (at the expense of noise), or likewise go up an ISO stop. What is sharper looking in a print - faster shutter and higher ISO, or lower shutter speed/lower ISO?


I always choose fast shutter+high ISO over slow shutter+low ISO.


Unless the motion blur is an intentional part of the image, I find it more displeasing than the increase in noise. But you have to keep several things in mind. One is the final display size. If you want to make a 20x30 print or have it be sharp on a 100% crop, let's say you need need 1/500. But if it's just for a 1024x683 web image, then you can get away with 1/125 and the motion blur will still be invisible.


Another consideration is that if the motion blur is simple and consistent (e.g. camera shake in one direction) and you oversample enough, you can correct it in post processing. It's easier if you have a specular highlight that matches the motion blur you want to reverse.