1D mark iv image quality against 5D2

[George Spiridakis]

Hello,


firstly, does anyone knows when 1D Mark iv will be in Adorama and other known sellers, as well as European markets? i've seen in the forum a couple of people who already bought it.


The other thing is, i waited for the 1D4 because the former model did not have great resolution, and hoping that 1D4 will have even better image quality and ISO performance. Ok, 5D2 is clearly better in image quality and ISO performance than 1D3, but what about 1D4?


i don't ecxept it to be better from 5D2 in these 2 factors, but if it is nearly as good it's ok with me, i think it deserves to buy it. 1D4 has ISO very high yes, but that's not the point for me, i mean, i care about the higher usable ISO. And because i am a bird and wildlife photographer mainly, i really want the 1,3x of 1D4 (ok, speed is good also). Otherwise, i would buy the 5D2, but the fact it's a full frame, it will not give me the extra reach i need almost always. I am not thinking at all about the 7D, so please don't mention it at all.


So, to make a conclusion, how much good 1D4 is, comparing it with 5D2, image quality and higher usable ISO only???


i will finally then sell my 50D which is really not something great, it has quite a lot of noise.


and somethig else, only for nature photographers which know what i mean, what you will prefer as combination, 50D and EF 500 f/4L IS, or 1D4 and EF 400 f/5,6L (or EF 100-400 - one of these lenses, doesn't really matters which one cause i have them both)

[crosbyharbison]

IQ and ISO performance looks to be "nearly as good" as you describe. If your doing birding photography you will not be happy with the 5D II's AF system.I would prefer a 50D and a 500mm just make sure to have aWimberley tripod.That being said I would rather have that unmentionable camera you described in combination with the 500mm.








The 1d IV was available today from bhphotovideo.com ("http://www.the-digital-picture.com/ShoppingEngine/Click.aspx?b=2&e=684) for about 30 minutes before it sold out. Expect this to happen weekly for about 4 months or sountiladequatestock is available.

[HiFiGuy1]

and somethig else, only for nature photographers which know what i mean, what you will prefer as combination, 50D and EF 500 f/4L IS, or 1D4 and EF 400 f/5,6L (or EF 100-400 - one of these lenses, doesn't really matters which one cause i have them both)






If you mean that you have a 50D and 500mm f/4 L IS currently, and you also have a 400mm f/5.6 L and an EF 100-400mm zoom, and want to know which will pair best with the 1D Mark IV for wildlife, then the answer is clearly the 1D Mark IV plus the 500mm f/4 L IS. If that is not what you meant, please clarify. A 50D with a 500mm gives a full frame equivalent effective focal length of 800mm. The 1D Mark IV and 400mm only gives an EFL of 520mm. Not even close. My experience with a 1.5x crop body and a 400mm (EFL of 600mm) with even medium range shots of moderately large birds (Mallards) tells me you are going to be unsatisfied with the reach.


On the other hand, a 1D Mark IV and a 500mm f/4 has an EFL of 650mm, which is starting to be very handy, indeed. [;)]

[crosbyharbison]

I believe that he has a 50d, 400mm, and 100-400mm currently and that he has a budget for either a 500mm or a 1d IV

[HiFiGuy1]

Wasn't sure. I can see that you see that. If so, I suggest the 500mm f/4. The 50D, what with it's AF Microadjust and 15MP sensor, is undoubtedly a better body than my 40D, and look what people like Nate can do with the 40D and 500mm f/4!! Imagine if he had that lens and a 50D. His images would be so sharp, just looking at them you might poke you eye out!

[George Spiridakis]

Yes indeed, i have the 50D and both 100-400 and 400 f/5,6L. At the moment, my problem is the body. 50D is a medium performance camera, so i want a body which is top in image quality and ISO performance. 5D2 and 1D4 are cameras with very good levels in low noise. With my 400 and a body like the above i think i will get ecxellent images. I prefer to get fewer shots but with great image quality than more shots with noise(because of the 50D). Later, maybee in 6-7 months i'll manage to get the 500, so i'll have the ultimate combination of body and lens.


Now, i really want to know how 1D4 performs (at least in comparison with 5D2 which i've seen images of that body)

[peety3]

The 1d IV was available today from bhphotovideo.com ("http://www.the-digital-picture.com/ShoppingEngine/Click.aspx?b=2&e=684) for about 30 minutes before it sold out. Expect this to happen weekly for about 4 months or sountiladequatestock is available.
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Sounds about right. I ordered my 1D III from Ritz Camera in July 2007, about two months after the camera began shipping in the US. It arrived at the store about seven weeks later. That was well after the AF reports had surfaced. If the 1D4 really is as good as claimed, I bet it'll be a tough find for seven months.

[Sinh Nhut Nguyen]

Hi George,


I havetwo questions for you. Is noise the only problem with your 50D? Are your images well composed, exposed, focused and processed? Please post a few samples and we can tell you what you need, whether you need a new camera or you just need to know more about photography (composition, exposure etc..) [:)]. Beginners tend to think "my camera sucks, it gives crappy results, I wish I have a better camera so I can make better images". [:)]

[clemmb]

I am not thinking at all about the 7D, so please don't mention it at all.
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My apologies but I have to. If you feel you need a better body than a 50D then why not? I think most will agree that the glass though is more important than the body. Are you looking to be on the leading edge of technology or the bleeding edge? Do you have to make a move now or can you wait for the 1D MKIV to get on the market and really see how it performs before asking the question?


Still love my 5D. Looking for more glass first.


Mark

[Daniel Browning]

I am not thinking at all about the 7D, so please don't mention it at all.









My apologies but I have to.





Save your breath. I made an effort to explain why the 7D was an excellent choice in the last thread he started with a similar subject ("/forums/t/2274.aspx), but he dismissed it all with the wave of a hand. This time he even gave you advance warning.

[George Spiridakis]

<h2>Here are some of my best recent photos in Greece./cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.33.86/IMG_5F00_9737.JPG/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.33.86/IMG_5F00_0749.JPG</h2>

[tancanon58]

I thought you would be interested to read this


http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=811130&amp;page=2 ("http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=811130&amp;page=2)

[George Spiridakis]

Hello, thanks for your interest firstly. Well, i am not a beginner actually, i am 3 years now in bird photography mainly. There are still things i must learn, but i believe i know how to capture a nice photo. I mainly shoot birds as i said, and other wildlife, much less landscapes and even less people. When i shoot birds and other wildlife, i shoot them in raw always. The others in jpeg only. Also, i use the Av, to change the aperture only. My captures are usually at f/8, rarely more than 8, and can shoot even at f/5,6 when needed. One shot or AI Servo most times, ISO varies, mostly 400 and try to avoid go more than that because noise begins to get apparent. I will shoot at ISO 200 when i can so, (i try to get speeds 1/800 0r 1/1000 at least with my 400 f/5,6). WB mostly in auto, when cloudy or shade i will change it.


I have some pictures in my profile, but i can't post them unfortunately, i don't know how...Please check them. All shoot with my 50D and the 400 f/5,6L, and they came out of the camera (only sharpness at level 3). I had a problem with the lens also, i think it needs microadjustment. Images look a little soft.


Anyway, i want an other body so much, because i think is much better to get i high quality photo and use programs like photoshop as less as possible. I actually want to make just sharpen to my images. Now, i have to sharpen and reduce noise, which is also a boring activity, and sometimes results are not the best.

[HiFiGuy1]

George,


Curious, but why in the world would you shoot in JPEG only for anything? You do know that RAW can be converted, no? If you are going to choose a storage file type as your only one, in my humble opinion, it should be RAW. If you decide to eschew the convenience of RAW+JPEG in order to save space, it certainly makes more sense to dump the JPEGs.


As far as the 7D, even though you've said you'd not consider it, it is the most obvious, logical camera for what you've explicitly stated are your typical targets. What, exactly, is your rationale for not even looking at it seriously? Don't you want the best performance available for the images you intend to capture? I sure do.








P.S. Make sure, when posting your images, that you keep the maximum width at 800 or less. That way we can see the whole picture. I typically don't set height, and allow it to be determined by the width and native aspect ratio of the image I post. It is also commonly accepted practice to provide the following information so that others may learn from the results:


Camera body, lens, focal length, f/number, shutter speed, ISO, hand-held/tripod/monopod, and any post-processing you may have done before posting.

[George Spiridakis]

Because some subjects are not so important for me, so i don't want to keep large files for those. Bird photos are a different story, and because i want to have the original image, i keep the raw and play with jpeg later.


As for 7D, it may be a good camera, and if i didn't have the 50D i may think about it. Now, i don't think that is a right solution to sell my 50D and buy a 7D. It's not a large improvement, i will just buy a little better camera. But getting 1D 4, i think then i am getting in an other level. DXO Markmakes a comparison about most camera bodies. Check that. 7D is not a big step from 50D, (one friend of mine which has it also told me that), 5D2 and 1D4 are far better in ISO performance. I think that taking a body like 1D4 with 1,3x and if it is as good as 5D2 in image quality and ISO performance, i can get very good images with my 400 f/5,6L and then my next goal will be the ultimate 500mm f/4L IS. Getting the 7D will improve my images slightly and later i will think of taking a better body again. And i don't want that.

[Daniel Browning]

You are incorrect on a lot of points George:



Now, i don't think that is a right solution to sell my 50D and buy a 7D. It's not a large improvement, i will just buy a little better camera.


Wrong.



DXO Markmakes a comparison about most camera bodies. Check that. 7D is not a big step from 50D


Incorrect. DXOmark data does not support your position at all.



5D2 and 1D4 are far better in ISO performance.


Again incorrect. The 7D is slightly better than the 5D2 in ISO performance for birding.


I would have been happy to go into more detail about why you are wrong on so many counts, but there's no point explaining it to someone who wont listen.

[clemmb]

but there's no point explaining it to someone who wont listen.
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I have been there and you still explain things to me, LOL.


Mark

[Alan]

I would have been happy to go into more detail about why you are wrong on so many counts, but there's no point explaining it to someone who wont listen.
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Daniel, I think you should explain it again, regardless, since we can all benefit from it, and it might end up changing George's mind.

[Daniel Browning]

I have been there and you still explain things to me, LOL.


[:D] That was back when the economy was good and words were inexpensive. At today's prices, I can barely afford two-sentence paragraphs, so I have to be more careful how I spend them. [:D]

[Daniel Browning]

Daniel, I think you should explain it again, regardless, since we can all benefit from it

Good point.

I'll explain why I think the 7D is the best choice for George based on what he's told us.

First let's consider the 5D2. The 5D2 is only $900 (USD) more, but it provides lower quality for high ISO birding. If you compare the same angle of view from the 7D and 5D2, you have to crop the 5D2 down to 8 MP. At low and high ISO alike, they'll both have about the same level of noise (slightly better in the 7D), but the 7D will have far greater resolution (18 MP vs 8 MP). That factor is the most vital for birding, because even with 400mm you may have to crop the photo by 2X, 3X, or more in order to fill the frame. Of course there's the autofocus, frame rate, and other advantages that the 7D has over the 5D2 as well.

Next, the 1D4. There is a $3,300 price difference between the 7D and the 1D4. Getting the 1D4 sets him back halfway from the goal of getting the 500mm f/4. For birding, it's much better to get the 7D now and wait until after getting the 500mm f/4 before getting a 1D.

The performance measurements I've seen so far indicate the 1D4 has a 2/3 stop advantage at high ISO for birding (i.e. cropped to the same angle of view). That means ISO 6400 on the 1D4 has the same noise level as ISO 4000 on the 7D. (1.8 electrons read noise per 5.7 micron pixel in the 1D4 vs. 2.1 e-/4.3 um in the 7D.)

Now maybe that 2/3 stop is worth $3,300 to some people, but I would argue that it would be much better spent on a 300mm f/2.8 + 1.4XTC, which would give a *full* stop less noise (at every ISO), not to mention a much higher quality lens with I.S. (Or even better: save the $3,300 and put it towards the 500mm f/4.)

But even if 2/3 stop was worth it for the 1D4, what about resolution? For the same angle of view, the 1D4 only provides only 9.5 MP: about half the resolution of the 7D. In birding, especially with just 400mm, that could make the difference between a blurry, unusable shot and a highly detailed blow up.


Now, i don't think that is a right solution to sell my 50D and buy a 7D. It's not a large improvement, i will just buy a little better camera.

The fact is that the 7D is indeed a large improvement over the 50D at high ISO. It's not just because the random noise is improved (though it is, a lot), but also because the pattern noise (annoying lines / banding) were greatly improved in the 7D at high ISO. Comparing both cameras at ISO 6400 is like comparing night and day.


DXO Mark makes a comparison about most camera bodies. Check that. 7D is not a big step from 50D

The DXOMark comparison is based on assumptions that apply to most types of photography, but birding is not like most types. It is different, because it is almost always limited by the lens. Specifically, DXOMark is based on the assumption that you will use a longer focal length with the same f-number on the larger sensors. That means if you are using 400mm f/5.6 on the 7D, it assumes you will use 520mm f/5.6 on the 1D4. But that is not the case. You are are going to use the same lens on *both* cameras. So in order to get the same angle of view, you will have to crop the 1D3 from 16 MP to 9.5 MP, and once you do that the performance is only 2/3 stop better than the 7D.


5D2 and 1D4 are far better in ISO performance.

Again, that is only true if you use a longer lens with the same f-number on them. In birding, you generally use the longest lens you have, no matter what your body. If you compared the 5D2 with a 640mm f/5.6 vs the 7D with a 400mm f/5.6, then yes, you would find that the 5D2 is far better in ISO performance than the 7D. But if you put that 640mm f/5.6 on the 7D, then it turns around again and the 7D is better.

[JJphoto]

Daniel, this is just a great post, thank you very much!

[Brendan7]

and somethig else, only for nature photographers which know what i mean, what you will prefer as combination, 50D and EF 500 f/4L IS, or 1D4 and EF 400 f/5,6L (or EF 100-400 - one of these lenses, doesn't really matters which one cause i have them both)





50d and 500 f/4l is usm. I would rather have a rebel XSi and 500 f/4 than 1D4 and 400 f/5.6.

[Brendan7]

Daniel, this is just a great post, thank you very much!


Agree. Daniel, many thanks for participating on this forum.

[HiFiGuy1]

and somethig else, only for nature photographers which know what i mean, what you will prefer as combination, 50D and EF 500 f/4L IS, or 1D4 and EF 400 f/5,6L (or EF 100-400 - one of these lenses, doesn't really matters which one cause i have them both)





50d and 500 f/4l is usm. I would rather have a rebel XSi and 500 f/4 than 1D4 and 400 f/5.6.






Absolutely! When I first read that, I thought he was kidding! With AF Microadjust on the 50D, and even decent photography technique, those would be some fantastic wildlife shots.