T2i or 60D for Indoor Volleyball [Archive] - The-Digital-Picture.com Community

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MikeA01730

12-07-2010, 01:20 AM

<p class="MsoNormal"]Hi,
<p class="MsoNormal"]I want to buy a DSLR for general use and in particular to
photograph my daughter’s indoor volleyball games.<span> After a lot of poking around on the internet and
some time at the camera store I concluded that a Canon T2i would be a good
choice.<span> I’d like to spend what’s
necessary, but no more.<span> I thought that on
balance the increased value of the T2i vs. less expensive cameras was
worthwhile, but the added value of more expensive cameras wasn’t worth the cost
for me.<span> I’d love to get a 60D or 7D, but
didn’t think that for my needs the extra costs was justified.<span>
<p class="MsoNormal"]<span>Then at http://www.cameratown.com/reviews/canont2i_vs_7d/index.cfm,
which compares the 7D and T2i, I read this:”The Rebel T2i features a reliable
but slower 9-point AF system. The center point is a cross-type AF sensor for
use with f/2.8 or faster lenses. While overall reliable, the Rebel T2i focusing
system was not designed to accurately keep up with fast moving objects
(tracking).”<span> I doubt that I’ll be able
to afford an f/2.8 or faster zoom lens, so I wouldn’t be using the center point
cross-type sensor at all.<span>
<p class="MsoNormal"]At http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=36168302
there’s also this: “The xxxD and xxD have always shared these features. But the
AF is NOT the same. 550D has a cross sensor only at the center. 60D continues
the xxD of cross sensors at all 9 positions, and the center is both
"+" orientation with slow lenses and "x" orientation with
f/2.8 and faster.”
<p class="MsoNormal"]At https://dojoklo.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/httpdojoklo-wordpress-com20100503canon-7d-vs-5d-vs-50d-part-iicanon_5d_vs_7d_vs_60d_vs_50d_vs_550d/
there’s this: “The 60D shares a similar autofocus system to the T2i and the
previous 50D, with 9 focus points and three auto focusing modes. However the 9
AF points of the 60D are more sensitive than those of the T2i: all are
cross-type in the 60D, only the center is cross-type in the T2i.”
<p class="MsoNormal"]At http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/canon_eos_60D_preview.html
<span>there’s this: “The main difference
between the EOS 7D and EOS 60D is that the 7D has a new 19 point AF system with
cross sensors at all 19 positions, while the 60D has the older 9 zone AF system
(from the 50D), again with cross sensors in all 9 positions. The T2i has a
similar 9 zone pattern, but only uses a cross sensor for the center AF zone.”<span>
<p class="MsoNormal"]All these comments suggest that the AF on the 60D is
superior to that of T2i, but what I’m unsure about is how much difference I’ll
notice shooting indoor volleyball.<span> It
could be that the superiority of the 60D AF won’t be noticeable, but I have no
idea if that’s true.<span> Can anyone with
real world experience with these cameras or sports photography experience help
me with this?<span>
<p class="MsoNormal"]Thanks,
<p class="MsoNormal"]Mike

neuroanatomist

12-07-2010, 01:37 AM

Hi, ,and welcome to the TDP Forums!

AF performance is T2i < 60D < 7D. For indoor sports, the 7D is the best choice. AF performance isn't the whole story - for sports/action, the faster the frame rate the better. The order is the same - T2i at 3.7 fps, 60D at 5.3 fps, and 7D at 8 fps. It's not really the center AF point that's needed for moving subjects, it's a sufficient number of AF points and a good AI Servo processing system, which also improves as you increase in cost. The other factor is shutter lag (T2i > 60D = 7D). The longer the shutter lag, the longer the time between the AF system setting the focus and the image capture, meaning more time for a subject to move out of focus.

FWIW, I started with the T1i and found that the AF couldn't keep very well once my toddler started running around, and I'm sure your daughter is moving faster than my 2-year old was at the time. I upgraded to a 7D around 6 months after getting the T1i.

The other consideration is the lens:

I doubt that I’ll be able
to afford an f/2.8 or faster zoom lens, so I wouldn’t be using the center point
cross-type sensor at all.<span>

I have to dispute this to some extent. First on the center AF point - you're right that you won't be using it every time - if you're using AI Servo (tracking), you'll be using off-center points a fair bit of the time anyway. But I think you're wrong about lenses at f/2.8 or faster (at least, I am suggesting you consider fast lenses). It makes perfect sense that an f/2.8 zoom is out of budget, especially a telephoto zoom. But an f/4 or slower zoom isn't going to work well for indoor sports, especially non-pro where the lighting isn't intended for TV cameras. Frankly, even an f/2.8 zoom will struggle especially at ISO settings that are tolerable (to me, anyway) on a crop body. Instead, consider a fast prime like the EF 85mm f/1.8 or EF 100mm f/2 - relatively inexpensive lenses that are tack-sharp and great for indoor sports.

Hope that helps...

scalesusa

12-07-2010, 01:58 AM

I believe it carefully taking just one shot, not trying to machine gun them in the blind hope that one will turn out good. It takes practice to push the shutter at the right time, but you can do it.

I

dragonmojo

12-07-2010, 02:05 AM

Instead, consider a fast prime like the EF 85mm f/1.8 or EF 100mm f/2 - relatively inexpensive lenses that are tack-sharp and ideal for indoor sports.
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I play volleyball competitively. Indoors, outdoors, 6-man, coed,doubles and quads. A lot of the action of the sport can be anticipated in order to set up the camera properly to bracket several exposures within the range of the main subject. I agree with Neuroanatomist that your best bet is a good, fast prime lens (I would opt for the 85mm f/1.8... f/1.4 if I could afford it). Gymnasiums are often small enough that you can get quite close to the game, where a fast nifty-fifty would be appropriate to get a broader swath of the teams. The 100mm is great for further isolating individual plays (a perfect pass, double-blockers, the spike). Some of the plays lend very well to taking some video too!

erno james

12-07-2010, 04:55 AM

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Many thanks to those with the great points made above. I too shoot indoor volleyball and agree with getting the fastest glass and most FPS you can afford (frames per second). There's always the option of renting f/2 or faster glass if only using it a few times per season.

Being the ultra-geek that i am, I took notes on taking sports photography when i started out doing this (like way back in February 2010!):

-to capture the peak action, 8-10 FPS is often necessary. this is one time where i shoot jpeg instead of raw...i know...GASP!

-shoot tight, then crop tighter. but don't crop on body joints, mid arm or mid leg is more appealing

-get the ball in frame

-get the eyes sharp. for me, a player's eyes in focus at the expense of an out of focus ball is better than the converse

-use narrow DOF to blur out backgrounds and try to keep the backgrounds clean. often a challenge at youth gym's with other games going on

-freezing the action often requires 1/1000 sec, so don't be afraid to crank up the ISO to 1600 or greater

-don't forget to capture the emotions and fun of the game, often when a game just ends

-i'll take lots of pictures during warm ups to practice anticipating peak action. players often do the same thing over and over, like setting and serving. this is a great time to practice on your timing

Most of these shots were done with my Canon 7d and EF 135mm f/2 and EF 24-70mm f/2.8 lenses:

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MikeA01730

12-08-2010, 02:09 AM

Hi,

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond in detail. You

peety3

12-08-2010, 07:23 AM

Why the 18-135?

A friend wanted to get a camera a few years ago to shoot his daughter playing volleyball. His budget was $1500. I told him to get the 85/1.8, and than fill in with the camera he could afford, which was the 40D and the 17-85 EF-S. He

MikeA01730

12-08-2010, 07:00 PM

Peety3,

I

neuroanatomist

12-08-2010, 07:57 PM

By the way, no one seems to recommend IS lenses for this use. Is it because I'll be pushing the shutter speed as much as I can so there would be no blur?

Correct. IS works by allowing you to shoot at a slower shutter speed than you otherwise would be capable of handholding. The 'rule of thumb' is 1/focal length (adjusted for crop factor), so with a 100mm lens on a 1.6x crop body, you should get a reasonable keeper rate when shooting at 1/160s. If that 100mm lens had 4-stop IS (e.g. the 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS), you could handhold it at ~1/10 s shutter speed. Even 1/160 s is too slow for most action shots, so there's not as big a benefit to IS (except the increased steadiness of the viewfinder image, which can help with framing a shot).

Any thoughts from anyone on the 60D vs. the T2i?

Well...just to throw a wrench at you, have you considered the 50D? For your purposes it might actually be the best choice. Same AF system as the 60D (better than the T2i), same shutter lag as the 60D (faster than the T2i), a faster frame rate than the 60D (6.3 fps vs. 5.3 fps), and the kicker for me, the 50D has AF microadjustment, which IMO is a must-have if you're shooting with a fast prime (and was a big reason I upgraded from the T1i to the 7D).

erno james

12-08-2010, 10:10 PM

hey MikeA01730, here is what I would do:

buy the 60d + EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS + 50mm f/1.8 (your low light, indoor, walk around town without getting neck strain, party-shot lens for about $100)

for the volleyball games to be played presumably on the weekends, rent the EF 85mm f/1.8 ($19/3 days at borrowlenses.com).

good luck in your choice and post some pix taken from your new toys! erno.

MikeA01730

12-08-2010, 10:14 PM

Neuroanatomist,

Actually I did think about the 50D. I know about the faster frame rate, but didn

erno james

12-08-2010, 11:09 PM

Mike, you mentioned "because I

neuroanatomist

12-09-2010, 12:10 AM

Erno has hit on my exact point. While I don't shoot sports (yet, I suppose, since my daughter is not quite 3 and doesn't play sports), I do shoot flying birds. I don't routinely shoot bursts of more than 4 frames (which is why I didn't even mention differences in the max buffer capacity of the bodies being compared). The difference is that on a 7D those 4 frames are half a second, while on a Rebel the same number of frames takes more than a second. Flying birds and sports are fast-action, and many times the moment you want to capture is faster than you can see. Yes, with practice you can anticipate. But a short, high-speed burst makes catching that fleeting moment a lot more likely than trying to squeeze off a frame at exactly the right moment.

Having done AF microadjustments on all my lenses, I will never get a camera without it. If you haven't read THIS ("https://www.lensrentals.com/news/2008.12.22/this-lens-is-soft-and-other-myths) and THIS ("http://www.lensrentals.com/news/2010.03.06/this-lens-is-soft-and-other-facts), you might want to peruse. If you've heard of Canon Professional Services (a membership service offered by Canon for pro photographers), that service had it's genesis in the need for pros to send their cameras and lenses (especially the fast superteles used by the sports pros) to Canon to have the lenses calibrated to the bodies for best focus. If your only lens was going to be the 18-135mm, I'd say AFMA would be unnecessary - the DoF is deep with slow lenses, so that masks any issues. But fast lenses shot wide for maximum shutter speed have thin DoF. If an 85mm f/1.8 shot wide open is not well-matched to your camera body, most shots where you depend on AF will not be as sharp as they should. I look at it this way - without AFMA, your best bet is to buy at a brick-and-mortar store where you can test several copies of a lens, or buy online and be prepared to return one or more lenses. So you'd either be paying more (most likely, plus possibly sales tax) at a shop, or paying return shipping, etc. If it's one lens, ok. If you accumulate a few lenses, that extra cost might have gotten you a body with AFMA.

I do agree that newer is better with bodies, in most cases. But I'm also in the camp that the 60D is the upgrade path for Rebel owners, and the 7D is the upgrade path for 40/50D owners. For me, though, if I had it to do over, I'd have started with the 7D instead of getting a T1i, using it for 6 months and deciding it was limiting me in many ways (AF performance being a big one), then selling it (at a loss, which is almost always the case especially for bodies), and buying the 7D.

Still, a budget is a budget. Generally speaking, a better lens is a bigger improvement than a better body. The 60D is a fine camera, as is the T2i, and as long as you learn the limitations (the 7D has its own set of them!), and learn to work around them, you'll be in good shape.

Good luck!

--John

MikeA01730

12-10-2010, 12:03 AM

John & erno,

Thanks again to both of you for taking the time to provide detailed responses. You