70d and 60d, questions

[jamsus]

Hello everyone, some days ago i asked a few things about my thoughts on buying a new APS-C camera.

I readed a lot of articles on 60D and on 70D.

Let's start for the actual big difference (at least, in Italy): the price

The 70D is going around 850-900 euros (only body)
The 60D is going around 575-625 euros (only body)

Then, i'm not really interested in videos... i mean, maybe little on and just for fun purposes.

I'm interested on buying a good general purpose camera that will be ok for an enthusiast amateur, and i noticed that the 70D has many interesting features.

Touch screen "focus" could be good in some situation (some artistic or "aerobic" poses :D) and the reviews seems to put the 70D CMOS AF technology in a very good way used with touch screen.

Second, many AF point that suite the 70D for a better wildlife\sport shooting condition than the 60D.

I'm not really interested on the MP difference.

What are my doubts?

I readed really a lot of topics about the 70D AF problems using it with "non canon" lens, or very fast apertures (< f/2.8), mainly using it with autofocus on distant subjects.

What do you think about it? Do you have some opinions, experiences, ideas about that?

I really prefer to take the cheaper and pretty good 60D without thinking about some of those problems that encountering an unlucky model of the 70D.

Second, what do you think about the differences between those 2 cameras?

Thank you for your opinion ;)

[Lars]

This is an interesting subject also for me, since I am contemplating on the same choices. For me, I am upgrading from a 400D and at the same time, I will be exchanging my Tamron 18-50, which has taken some beating, and is no longer as sharp as it used to be. I guess one of the factors you must consider is the difference from you old camera. For me, that difference will be substantial, so I guess I will be more than satisfied with the 60D.

But the tought that there is something better out there is nagging me, and what if I would be more satisfied with a slightly better model?

However, it needs to be compatible with non-Canon lenses, for sure.

Sorry, I could not help much, maybe only increase the frustration :p. But any thoughts are appreciated.

Lars

[jamsus]

No, your answer made ​​me consider another aspect that I had not ignored, but I did not have deepened - the differences between my actual model and the new one, instead of difference between the newest, possibile, two models.

I got a 600D which is very good but is not really mine (my father's is the theorical but not pratical owner), and i think that i will be appreciate some of the improvements between the 600D and the 60D... and invest on future lens!

Thank you for your answer

[Kayaker72]

I do not believe I can do better than Bryan (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-70D.aspx) for comparing the two bodies:

"You can check out the Canon EOS 70D vs. 60D specification comparison (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=845&CameraComp=736) to fully compare these cameras, but here are some of the highlight differences (70D vs. 60D respectively):

19 cross-type AF points (f/2.8 at center) vs. 9 cross-type AF points (f/2.8 at center)
Dual Pixel CMOS AF in Live View including Movie Servo AF vs. contrast-only Live View AF with no Movie Servo AF
7 fps for 40/15 images (JPEG/RAW) vs. 5.3 fps vs. 58/16 images
20.2 vs. 18.0 megapixel sensor
Built-in WiFi vs. Eye-Fi cards
DIGIC 5+ vs. DIGIC 4 (17x faster)
ISO 100-12800, 25600 vs. 100-6400, 12800 (but you will not want to use ISO 25600)
Clear View II LCD with capacitive touch capabilities vs. Clear View I with no touch feature
Approx. 98% viewfinder coverage vs. 96%
Metering EV -1 – 20 vs. EV 0 - 20
Shutter lag of 65ms vs 59ms
Intelligent viewfinder
Viewfinder grid lines available vs. optional focusing screen required
Dedicated viewfinder level indicator vs. exposure meter doubling functionality
AF Microadjustment vs. does not have
Zone AF vs. does not have
23 Custom Functions vs. 20
Additional shooting modes
Ultra High Speed (UHS-1) memory card support
Stereo in-camera sound recording vs. mono"


It does depend upon what you shoot if any of these differences mean anything too you. But, the one I will highlight, the 70D has AFMA and the 60D does not. AFMA allows you to calibrate the focus plane of each lens to each camera body. Like any high performance equipment, there is variability. This is less of an issue at apertures where you have a great DoF, as that large DoF will swallow the actual difference. But if you plan to start shooting Phase Detect AF (through the viewfinder) with shallow DoF, this can become a critical feature.

After that, for me, the EV -1 vs EV 0 would be nice as you can focus in 1 stop lower light. And the UHS-1 memory support and DIGIC5+ would be nice as you may be able to write to a memory card and process faster.

But, make no mistake, both of these cameras are capable of many of the exact same things. Generally speaking the better AF system, zone AF, and a few extra FPS will make the 70D a little better for wildlife, sports, and action (including around the house action). The extra stop of EV sensitivity will cause your lenses to hunt less in lower light. And the AFMA is a very nice feature if you will be shooting with shallow DoF. But, all that said, my sister owns the 60D. It is a very nice camera. In fact, even after owning it for a couple of years now, I think she is still getting to know its features.

Good luck.

[jamsus]

I do not believe I can do better than Bryan (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-70D.aspx) for comparing the two bodies:

"You can check out the Canon EOS 70D vs. 60D specification comparison (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=845&CameraComp=736) to fully compare these cameras, but here are some of the highlight differences (70D vs. 60D respectively):

19 cross-type AF points (f/2.8 at center) vs. 9 cross-type AF points (f/2.8 at center)
Dual Pixel CMOS AF in Live View including Movie Servo AF vs. contrast-only Live View AF with no Movie Servo AF
7 fps for 40/15 images (JPEG/RAW) vs. 5.3 fps vs. 58/16 images
20.2 vs. 18.0 megapixel sensor
Built-in WiFi vs. Eye-Fi cards
DIGIC 5+ vs. DIGIC 4 (17x faster)
ISO 100-12800, 25600 vs. 100-6400, 12800 (but you will not want to use ISO 25600)
Clear View II LCD with capacitive touch capabilities vs. Clear View I with no touch feature
Approx. 98% viewfinder coverage vs. 96%
Metering EV -1 – 20 vs. EV 0 - 20
Shutter lag of 65ms vs 59ms
Intelligent viewfinder
Viewfinder grid lines available vs. optional focusing screen required
Dedicated viewfinder level indicator vs. exposure meter doubling functionality
AF Microadjustment vs. does not have
Zone AF vs. does not have
23 Custom Functions vs. 20
Additional shooting modes
Ultra High Speed (UHS-1) memory card support
Stereo in-camera sound recording vs. mono"


It does depend upon what you shoot if any of these differences mean anything too you. But, the one I will highlight, the 70D has AFMA and the 60D does not. AFMA allows you to calibrate the focus plane of each lens to each camera body. Like any high performance equipment, there is variability. This is less of an issue at apertures where you have a great DoF, as that large DoF will swallow the actual difference. But if you plan to start shooting Phase Detect AF (through the viewfinder) with shallow DoF, this can become a critical feature.

After that, for me, the EV -1 vs EV 0 would be nice as you can focus in 1 stop lower light. And the UHS-1 memory support and DIGIC5+ would be nice as you may be able to write to a memory card and process faster.

But, make no mistake, both of these cameras are capable of many of the exact same things. Generally speaking the better AF system, zone AF, and a few extra FPS will make the 70D a little better for wildlife, sports, and action (including around the house action). The extra stop of EV sensitivity will cause your lenses to hunt less in lower light. And the AFMA is a very nice feature if you will be shooting with shallow DoF. But, all that said, my sister owns the 60D. It is a very nice camera. In fact, even after owning it for a couple of years now, I think she is still getting to know its features.

Good luck.

Thank you, yesterday i readed twice the 70D review of Bryan, what stopped me a little was the continuous voices around the "AF" problems and the difference (+50%) of price between those two models...

For now i'm on 60D, but let's see!

[neuroanatomist]

You can find reports of all sorts of problems about anything on the Internet, the 70D's AF is inherited from the 7D, and is a very good AF system.

I'd say the 70D is a significant improvement over the 60D, but price is certainly an important consideration.

[jamsus]

Another thing that bumped my head was...

With 50-100 extra euros sometimes you can find a 5D Mark II... uhm!

[peety3]

Another thing that bumped my head was...

With 50-100 extra euros sometimes you can find a 5D Mark II... uhm!

Yes, but my (current) advice is to never buy a camera that's more than three years old (referencing the day the product first went on sale, not the manufacture or purchase date of [that particular unit]). The 5D2 was announced six years ago, whereas the 60D was released four years ago. You'd be getting a lot more with the 60D than the 5D2, though the 70D would be the "only" choice of the two-digit models and better.

With a 5D2, you also have massively different lens needs, which are potentially more expensive. The camera might be affordable, but the whole kit now becomes out of reach.

[jamsus]

Thank you Peedy for your opinion.

Today i discovered some other troubles on the 70D that really make me doubt of the purchase... some "non-canon" lens have problems with the new technology of the camera, i got 3-4 feedbacks about tamron\sigma that doesn't work on that body (software problem).

Probably, but just for a matter of economy and personal needings, i'll probably will go on the 60D

[clemmb]

Yes, but my (current) advice is to never buy a camera that's more than three years old (referencing the day the product first went on sale, not the manufacture or purchase date of [that particular unit]). The 5D2 was announced six years ago, whereas the 60D was released four years ago. You'd be getting a lot more with the 60D than the 5D2, though the 70D would be the "only" choice of the two-digit models and better.

With a 5D2, you also have massively different lens needs, which are potentially more expensive. The camera might be affordable, but the whole kit now becomes out of reach.
I totally disagree with this advice. I just this year purchased used a 1DIII and a 1DsIII to go along with my original 5D. I love them all and am very happy with my kit. I do like the AF Microadjustment of the 1D & 1Ds. I do not see the need to ensure I have the latest technology. I do much prefer the full frame to a crop frame. I would rather have my 12.8MP full frame than a 20MP crop frame.
I say if you can get a 5DII, go for it. You can't go wrong.

[jamsus]

I totally disagree with this advice. I just this year purchased used a 1DIII and a 1DsIII to go along with my original 5D. I love them all and am very happy with my kit. I do like the AF Microadjustment of the 1D & 1Ds. I do not see the need to ensure I have the latest technology. I do much prefer the full frame to a crop frame. I would rather have my 12.8MP full frame than a 20MP crop frame.
I say if you can get a 5DII, go for it. You can't go wrong.

To be honest, with the 40mm f2.8 and the Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 the only "loss" in term of equipment would be the 10-18, that is pretty new right now and i can sell it to obtain with a little extra money the Samyiang 14mm f2.8, that is really good (only manual but, at 14mm is ok)!

I'm thinking about it and i'm also looking around for some good offer, but i also love to shoot and if i didn't found a really good offer for the 5dMkII i'll probably go with 60D (the 1.6x factor makes the 70-300 very long)

Thank you for your opinion

[peety3]

I totally disagree with this advice. I just this year purchased used a 1DIII and a 1DsIII to go along with my original 5D. I love them all and am very happy with my kit. I do like the AF Microadjustment of the 1D & 1Ds. I do not see the need to ensure I have the latest technology. I do much prefer the full frame to a crop frame. I would rather have my 12.8MP full frame than a 20MP crop frame.
I say if you can get a 5DII, go for it. You can't go wrong.
I totally disagree with your disagreement. You went from 2005 tech to 2007 tech, and you like the improvement. However, you haven't continued that trend, which would allow you to experience everything (tangible and not) that's gone into newer cameras, so you aren't speaking from direct experience about today's products, nor are you speaking from experience with a continued progression of technology.

My wife and I have owned a Rebel XTi (2006), 40D (2007), 1D Mark III (2007), 7D (2009), 5D Mark III (2012), and 1Dx (2012). As such, I've got familiarity with the evolution of the product line more than you, which speaks to my advice. Our XTi has been sold, and the 40D is about to go, but honestly the 7Ds aren't going to stay here long either. The evolution has brought a lot of new features, some of which are useful and some aren't, but there are lots of other improvements not easily quantified such as timing, menu ease of use, control layout.

[Kayaker72]

Some people like classic cars. Some people like new releases with bells and whistles. I think it is up to you to find something that fits your needs the best; new or used.

The only issue I have ever heard with buying used is that at some point Canon stops supporting older cameras. But that is typically after a couple of generations. Also, if the camera is working, what good is support?

[clemmb]

I totally disagree with your disagreement. You went from 2005 tech to 2007 tech, and you like the improvement. However, you haven't continued that trend, which would allow you to experience everything (tangible and not) that's gone into newer cameras, so you aren't speaking from direct experience about today's products, nor are you speaking from experience with a continued progression of technology.

My wife and I have owned a Rebel XTi (2006), 40D (2007), 1D Mark III (2007), 7D (2009), 5D Mark III (2012), and 1Dx (2012). As such, I've got familiarity with the evolution of the product line more than you, which speaks to my advice. Our XTi has been sold, and the 40D is about to go, but honestly the 7Ds aren't going to stay here long either. The evolution has brought a lot of new features, some of which are useful and some aren't, but there are lots of other improvements not easily quantified such as timing, menu ease of use, control layout.
I have played with friends 7Ds and 1Dx. So I am speaking from experience. I like these new models quite a bit but I just don't have to be on the bleeding edge of technolody all the time to get fantastic IQ. I also do not have the disposable funds to keep up either.
You also will not find me standing in long lines for the iphone 6. I'll keep my out dated 5 for as long as I can.
By the way. It was not too long ago, less than a year, I had my original 5D repaired. Seems it is still supported or at least was less than 12 months ago. And I'll take its IQ over a 7DII.
So when someone else who is struggling with $$s is thinking 60D, 7D or 5DII, I'll recomend the 5DII :cool:

[Dave Throgmartin]

The latest and greatest is nice when cash allows. When it does not take the best alternative for the cash available.

Full frame is great, but good lenses will cost.

Canon has come out with some really nice crop lenses the past several years that are also relatively inexpensive 10-18 STM, 18-55 STM, 55-250 STM, 24 STM, and the older 60mm macro is also quite good (I still own this one, have not used the others but people like them and they review well).

If you don't want to spend a lot of money on lenses, APS-C is the way to go. I own the 60D and it is a good camera although it is getting a bit long in the tooth. I'd suggest the 70D should be a good step up in performance versus the 60D.

Dave

[DavidEccleston]

I'll chime in here. I have an obsolete fullframe 16MP 1Ds2. I have an aging 18MP 7D as well. I use them both. They could both use a refresh, but they both work. Both make pictures that people want to give me (small amounts of) money for. They both can only really go to ISO 1600, and they've got nearly identical pixel counts, and similar weather sealing.

I wouldn't want to give up either of them. They complement each other nicely, each with different strengths, and each using my lenses differently. Despite having a fullframe, I still bought an EF-S lens this year. Complete compatibility is a nice idea, but a usable and affordable set of tools is more important. I can shoot the various things I shoot with *either* body. Some things are just a bit easier, or work a bit better, or have less limits when combined with one of the bodies. Crop kits are definitely lighter and cheaper. Having both, I can get away with ignoring the heaviest and most expensive full-frame components, the super-tele primes.

As you can only afford one, you want the best tool for the job... But what's "the job"? I've heard a lot of "I've heard (third party lens) doesn't like (some body), so I'm leaning towards (other body)". I haven't heard what you plan to shoot. Yes, a little of everything. Everyone shoots everything. But you've got something you love to shoot most. You want your new camera specifically so you can take awesome pictures of X. What's X? When we know X, we can tell you the best body to get you there. It might not be a 60D or a 70D. Maybe it would be a 5D1. Maybe you'd need the 6D. Maybe you'd be better off getting the cheapest thing you can afford for now, and saving your pennies for a 5D3, or a 7D2. Or maybe the 60D *would* be perfect. Right now, we're guessing.

[jamsus]

Eheh, you are right - i'll answer later in the morning (at least, here in Italy, is morning now)

[jamsus]

I'll chime in here. I have an obsolete fullframe 16MP 1Ds2. I have an aging 18MP 7D as well. I use them both. They could both use a refresh, but they both work. Both make pictures that people want to give me (small amounts of) money for. They both can only really go to ISO 1600, and they've got nearly identical pixel counts, and similar weather sealing.

I wouldn't want to give up either of them. They complement each other nicely, each with different strengths, and each using my lenses differently. Despite having a fullframe, I still bought an EF-S lens this year. Complete compatibility is a nice idea, but a usable and affordable set of tools is more important. I can shoot the various things I shoot with *either* body. Some things are just a bit easier, or work a bit better, or have less limits when combined with one of the bodies. Crop kits are definitely lighter and cheaper. Having both, I can get away with ignoring the heaviest and most expensive full-frame components, the super-tele primes.

As you can only afford one, you want the best tool for the job... But what's "the job"? I've heard a lot of "I've heard (third party lens) doesn't like (some body), so I'm leaning towards (other body)". I haven't heard what you plan to shoot. Yes, a little of everything. Everyone shoots everything. But you've got something you love to shoot most. You want your new camera specifically so you can take awesome pictures of X. What's X? When we know X, we can tell you the best body to get you there. It might not be a 60D or a 70D. Maybe it would be a 5D1. Maybe you'd need the 6D. Maybe you'd be better off getting the cheapest thing you can afford for now, and saving your pennies for a 5D3, or a 7D2. Or maybe the 60D *would* be perfect. Right now, we're guessing.

You are right, for me is not a job is a strong passion. My kind of photography regards pretty everything, from landscape to nature details to architecture and sometimes sport. But for sport "pictures" consider that i'm finding fine with the Canon 600D autofocus system - because i usually shoot from a medium distance with 70-300 during daylight so... i do not really need a camera body-breaker for action pictures.

Wildlife (birds etc) is not really my priority, i do prefer a lot more natural details or static \ little animals (spiders etc)!

[jamsus]

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=7260

Reading this, i see that 70D has a list of "compatible" lenses, do you know if the AF problem of 70D are coming out also with those lenses?

My only fear on the 70D is encountering one of those problems...

[DavidEccleston]

This is the first time I've seen this list, but I don't think this list is anything to be concerned about. That's a list of lenses incompatible with the second, new and faster, focusing technology for LiveView.

The optical viewfinder still works, as it always has, with all lenses. The LiveView will work in contrast-detect (accurate but slow), as it has since it was introduced. It's just that many older lenses don't work with the new DualPixel system. This system sends half the light to the sensor for LiveView, and half to the phase-detect focus system (the type of focus system the optical viewfinder uses).

The list also looks like very old lenses. These are focal length ranges that Canon hasn't made in a long time. Notice you'll see 70-210, and 80-200, instead of 70-200. 28-70 and 28-80, instead of 24-70. I own one of them (28-70mm f/3.5-4.5)... it was my cheap (used, $99) way of getting a general purpose lens for my 1Ds2. It's ancient.

This could mean issues for 3rd party lenses too, but only for the new Dual Pixel Live-View focus mode.

[jamsus]

This video explain, accurately, what are the problems and at what aperture they went out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA6JnzYSDJE

It is a very accurate description of the problem.

Actually for me, i didn't have any lens (and i'm not thinking to buy one) with aperture < 2.8, so it seems that i should'nt encounter the problem

[neuroanatomist]

This video explain, accurately, what are the problems and at what aperture they went out:

It is a very accurate description of the problem.


The problem was the person who posted the video had a defective camera. Some time after he posted the video, he posted the following update on his blog/review site. The link I had to that update no longer shows the update...his review/blog earns him income, I suppose a report of a problem generates more hits than admitting his camera was merely defective.

"I sent my 70D into the Canon Service center and now have it back. They responded that image sensor was incorrect and electronic adjustments were made. I have just started preliminary testing and can say that the difference between live view and viewfinder sharpness is still noticeable and sometime significant but seems to be almost completely corrected with AF Micro Adjustments – something that was not possible before."

[jamsus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc&t=33

THAT IS GOOD

:)

[jamsus]

Finally i choosed the 60D, and today i got it. Thanks everyone for the discussion - i keeped the extra 300€ of difference from the 70D for future lens shopping.

The camera is really beatiful, i was really excited and the felt in my hands was superbe.

If the weather will go better, from tomorrow i will start to use it!

Thanks again

[jamsus]

And thanks to digital-picture itself, i learned pretty everything on this website resources

[Lars]

Just curious on how your 60D feels after you've tried it a few times. Anything you miss, or feel could be better? Any regrets or second thoughts?

Lars

[jamsus]

Lars, i just feel... satisfied! And happy too. The camera is big, like my hands. The commands are in the right place, really... maybe i'm limited and i'm learning as a photographer but i just feel okay with this camera, really, i don't need anything else (now) by a camera. Maybe one day i'll choose a full frame, but for aps-c format 60D is right what i wanted