Need quick Canon 70d advice

[Silkylead]

Hello... I need quick help from the community... I just sold my Canon T2i, with the thought of getting the 70d. I am apprehensive about that camera because I'm not sure I'll get better photos... with it only has 19 focus points. Am I making an error in judgment based on that thinking, or is it in fact a good camera? Is it an decent upgrade from the T2i?

Assuming I do buy it, (the 70d) I am wondering what to do about a lens? After selling my T2i the lenses I still own are the Canon 15-85, the 50mm 1.8, and a 70-300 EF IS. I was wondering which lens should I get with it... or would you get any at all.. but just use what I have? I am not terribly concerned with video. If YOU already had a 70-300 would it make sense to get the 55-250? If YOU already had a 15-85 would you get a 18-135? What to do... What to do? I need to know soon if I'm going to beat a year end price deal. Thanks

[HDNitehawk]

The T5i will take fine pictures, the 70d has a newer sensor and a few more features. The 7D II a even a few more.
I do not have a 70d, but bought the wife a T4i and I have a 7D II. I think any of the three models would be a good upgrade for you.
It comes down to your budget, experience and what you are expecting of the hobby.
For instance the wife, and most people for that matter, would be very happy with those lenses and a t5i.
On the other hand I would want a full frame body, the highest quality lenses and the best AF system available.

So how much you want to spend, and how much does the hobby mean to you?

[peety3]

A while back, I thought through the Canon lineup and tried to categorize the typical shopper for each current model (I took a little license and ignored the "old" models that've been replaced). With a quick modification for the 7D2, here's what I came up with. Obviously, it's just one person's opinion, and others may see it differently, but I think it's a start where you can see where you fit in.

SL1 if small size is most important
T5i if photography is an interest rather than an end goal
70D if photography is a hobby
7D2 if sports photography is a passion
6D if landscape photography is a passion
5D3 if photography is a business or you're serious about your passion
1Dx if rugged build is essential or your hobby wallet is huge
T5 if none of the above apply

[DavidEccleston]

Asking questions on behalf the Silkylead, rather than answering them... ;)

I know back when I had a T1i, it could not capture fast-moving objects with a shallow DOF. Dogs running at the camera had blurry faces and sharp tails. The firmware intentionally made the focus system lag, such that the entry level Rebel couldn't be used for fast sports. Does the 70D have any fast-moving AF servo issues? Does Silkylead care about fast action?

Aside from that the 70D should be good. Perhaps it won't focus in the same light levels as the 7D2, 6D, 5D3, or 1Dx, but otherwise it should be a fairly solid camera. Someone here posted high-ISO shots from their 70D which is what convinced me that moving from the 7D to the 7D2 would be a nice upgrade (assuming the 7D2 had the same or better high-ISO as the 70D, which was a reasonable assumption to make).

Most kits have mediocre lenses, so I wouldn't worry about getting a camera+lens kit. The 18-135 IS STM would only be an option if you wanted an STM lens for video, which you said you don't care about. For stills you're already covered for a wide range of focal lengths. The newer 55-250 STM it might be sharper than the 70-300, but only a little, and it would still be a "slow" lens (f/5.6 at the long end). I would get just the body and put the savings towards a "Nice Lens" instead.

"Nice Lens" of course depends on what you shoot... landscapes, portraits, indoor sport, outdoor sport, wildlife, macro, etc.

[Kayaker72]

Hi Silkylead,

First off, welcome to the forum!

Regarding the lens selection, it would be helpful if you could elaborate on what you like to shoot and where you have found yourself limited. The EFS 15-85 is a great lens. While I do not shoot crop anymore, it is still one of my favorite general purpose lenses as it provides very good IQ over a very wide and useful focal length range. The 50 f/1.8 is a great value. I owned it and really liked the images I got from it at greater than f/2.8. I upgraded to the 50 f/1.4 for faster AF and really liked the images I got off that lens at greater than f/2 (at least center frame). So, there would be a potential upgrade I could recommend, if you view that as a need. I've heard good things about the 70-300 IS. I never owned one. Generally speaking, I would almost call the IQ between the 70-300 IS and the 55-250 STM to be a wash. It seems that which lens has better IQ changes (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=358&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=2&API=2&LensComp=856&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=3&APIComp=2) with each focal length (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=358&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=2&LensComp=856&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=1&APIComp=2). So, if you like your 70-300 IS, I wouldn't change it. If you have issues, you may want to consider an upgrade say to a 70-200 f/4 (1 more stop, slightly better IQ) or 100-400 II (more reach, better IQ), depending upon your budget.

Regarding the camera body, I would expect some improvement in IQ between the T2i and 70D (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=688&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&Sample=0&SampleComp=0&CameraComp=845&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0), and slightly better control of noise (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-70D-ISO-Noise.aspx). But the real changes have been improved specs. (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=688&CameraComp=845) Of course, this gets down to if any of these interest you, but what would interest me would be:


Almost double fps
Better battery life
19 cross type AF points
Multiple AF point selection modes
Ability to AFMA
Better viewfinder
Less shutter lag
Physical size (Rebels do not fit in my hand well)


For me, there are some nice features there that would help me capture images. But that is what I shoot.

But, at least my experience, the biggest jump in IQ is going from P&S to a DSLR. Upgrading to the 70D would not be the same kind of jump in IQ. But, there are still nice benefits. Jumping to FF would be a bit more of an IQ jump. But, to me, still not as big as going from P&S to a crop sensor DSLR.

[sedwards]

I upgraded to a 70d from a t4i last year. The biggest improvement i saw was having AFMA . none of my lenses seemed to focus quite right on the t4i. I can also use a higher iso before seeing a lot of grain.

[sedwards]

Here is a link to a post where i tried some high iso shots with my 70d .
As for focus points i most often use just the center point exept for birds in flight
.http://community.the-digital-picture.com/showthread.php?t=7847

[Dave Throgmartin]

The 70D is a really good camera and should be a fairly noticeable upgrade over the T2i.

I'd say the 15-85, 70-300, and 50 f/1.8 is a good combo. You should consider adding a flash such as the 430 EX II if you don't have one.

Dave

[Silkylead]

The 70D is a really good camera and should be a fairly noticeable upgrade over the T2i.

I'd say the 15-85, 70-300, and 50 f/1.8 is a good combo. You should consider adding a flash such as the 430 EX II if you don't have one.

Dave

Yes Dave, I have a 430EX and a 580EX II already. Also, what are YOUR thoughts on the 7D II ? Reviews say it's more "pro" but little IQ differences.

[Silkylead]

The T5i will take fine pictures, the 70d has a newer sensor and a few more features. The 7D II a even a few more.
I do not have a 70d, but bought the wife a T4i and I have a 7D II. I think any of the three models would be a good upgrade for you.
It comes down to your budget, experience and what you are expecting of the hobby.
For instance the wife, and most people for that matter, would be very happy with those lenses and a t5i.
On the other hand I would want a full frame body, the highest quality lenses and the best AF system available.

So how much you want to spend, and how much does the hobby mean to you?

Hello Sir.... I have about $1200.00 on hand at the moment... and being retired... don't want to make a purchase error.... also wonder about the 7D II ... you mentioned you have one. How do you like it? I've read it's built like a tank.... has more focus points, ... but IQ not much better than the 70d. ???? Also, .. in reality, .. what IS THE SCOOP about focus points??? Does more get better photos? I am often asked to take shots of groups at church... and was hoping more points would do a better job. I usually had HORRIBLE results, .. and a very tough time getting several faces in groups to all be clear. Thanks so much

[HDNitehawk]

Hello Sir.... I have about $1200.00 on hand at the moment... and being retired... don't want to make a purchase error.... also wonder about the 7D II ... you mentioned you have one. How do you like it? I've read it's built like a tank.... has more focus points, ... but IQ not much better than the 70d. ???? Also, .. in reality, .. what IS THE SCOOP about focus points??? Does more get better photos? I am often asked to take shots of groups at church... and was hoping more points would do a better job. I usually had HORRIBLE results, .. and a very tough time getting several faces in groups to all be clear. Thanks so much

I like the 7D II, but I like my full frame cameras more.

The 7D II has a better AF system than the 70D, would it benefit you? If I were taking pictures of groups at church maybe not. I would probably be using single shot single point AF mode and using only the center point. I would only need 1 point not 65.

Some people use the multiple points rather than focus and recompose. (focus and recompose where you hold the shutter half way, make focus at your subject and then move your view to your liking before you click) You can toggle the AF point to where you like using single point.

If however you are shooting moving objects all the time it would probably help.
The 7D II is weather sealed, but with the lenses you have that probably isn't going to matter. You are probably not shooting in the rain.
The 7D II does not have the flip screen and it doesn't have touch screen.
It is geared toward Action and Sports with its high frame rate and AF system.

Someone said the 70d could do a Auto Focus Adjustment for lenses. This would be important for me but for most consumers it would be beyond what they would normally do.



I am often asked to take shots of groups at church... and was hoping more points would do a better job. I usually had HORRIBLE results, .. and a very tough time getting several faces in groups to all be clear. Thanks so much

Sounds more like a depth of field issue than a focus issue. Use a larger aperture on your widest lens setting. (15mm at f/4 10' from subject gives you infinity)
Here is a DOF calculator

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

The few hundred dollars for the 70D over the t5i will give you a 4 or 5 year newer sensor.

All three of these have excellent live view shooting (using the screen to focus) and video modes. With the 70D and t5i you get a flip screen that really helps.

[Dave Throgmartin]

Yes Dave, I have a 430EX and a 580EX II already. Also, what are YOUR thoughts on the 7D II ? Reviews say it's more "pro" but little IQ differences.

Full disclosure: I use the 6D and 60D and I'm not experienced with either the 7D II or 70D. Everything I've read about, and samples I've seen from, the 70D suggests it is an outstanding camera.

The 7D II appears more intended for wild life and sport shooters.

Davae

[Silkylead]

So, If I understand more focus points wont necessarily make more faces clear in group shots..... and maybe I'm spending more money on a 7D Mk ii but may not get better photos? And, perhaps the 70D would serve me just fine? I tried a 70d out last weekend, and although not every picture was in focus... but the touch screen focusing was indeed a hoot!

[Kayaker72]

So, If I understand more focus points wont necessarily make more faces clear in group shots.....

Exactly. Think of the number of focus points as the number of options to where the center of the focus plane is located within your composed frame. You could have it in the center, far left, top left, far right, etc, etc, etc (65 different locations in any given scene). But, what you described sounds more like an issue with the width of the focus plane, or depth of field. The width can be very small and everything outside the focus plane will be out of focus or very wide. To have more of a scene all in focus, you typically need to use smaller aperture values (f/8 to f/22, etc), depending upon your focal length. For specifics, I would consult the calculator HDNitehawk already provided.

[HDNitehawk]

So, If I understand more focus points wont necessarily make more faces clear in group shots..... and maybe I'm spending more money on a 7D Mk ii but may not get better photos? And, perhaps the 70D would serve me just fine? I tried a 70d out last weekend, and although not every picture was in focus... but the touch screen focusing was indeed a hoot!

The 7D II doesn't have the touch screen but its live view focus is very effective. It is an option I would like to see on some of the high end cameras. The flip and the touch. It may sound like a gimmick but I find myself all the time in a position that I can't get my face to the camera.

You will get better pictures out of the 7D II if you use it for what it is intended.

Keep in mind we do not know your skill level and what you shoot, or if you shoot in manual or automatic modes. My wife does fine with the t5i but it has the running man, mountain and face setting on top. She only has to choose one for landscape, portraits or action. The 7D II doesn't have that and is geared toward individuals that are dedicated to the hobby, on this forum you will find most shooting in manual modes. But if you are shooting in the automatic modes and not the manual you would probably not benefit form the 7D II.

Kayaker72 gave you a good description of depth of field.

[Silkylead]

The 7D II doesn't have the touch screen but its live view focus is very effective. It is an option I would like to see on some of the high end cameras. The flip and the touch. It may sound like a gimmick but I find myself all the time in a position that I can't get my face to the camera.

You will get better pictures out of the 7D II if you use it for what it is intended.

Keep in mind we do not know your skill level and what you shoot, or if you shoot in manual or automatic modes. My wife does fine with the t5i but it has the running man, mountain and face setting on top. She only has to choose one for landscape, portraits or action. The 7D II doesn't have that and is geared toward individuals that are dedicated to the hobby, on this forum you will find most shooting in manual modes. But if you are shooting in the automatic modes and not the manual you would probably not benefit form the 7D II.

Kayaker72 gave you a good description of depth of field.

I would say my skill level is somewhere in the moderate area. I mostly shoot landscapes, and close-up's of strange things.... animals.... in-animate objects.... nature ... things of that nature. I have a number of friends that suggest shooting in AV mode.... but that really doesn't help me learn the way I would like (I'm 67 yrs. old) ... so I've been concentrating on working in Manual mode. By the nature of the beast... I find myself HAVING to use my 580 EX II flash a lot... especially in group settings in church.... but you just can't always do that cause it ruins the scene... or is too disruptive. As the whole world knows though, it's hard to get decent low light photos .... hand held without a lot of noise. Hope that helps....

I know some will advise full frame, which will give the best low light performance, .. but then I'd have to start completely over with lenses too, .. and my budget just won't allow that. And, by way of admission, I really don't understand what Kayaker72 means about focus points. ???

[HDNitehawk]

He is talking about the focus points the camera has. For instance the 7D II has 65, the 70D has 19. You can select in your AF menu to use 1 single point in the middle, multiple points or all the points. You can scroll around with the little joy stick if you are using a single point and pick one wherever you want. That is where the lens will focus.

By default your camera will come using all the points. When I get my camera the first thing I do is set it to only use the center point and adjust it when I need to do something else. Some leave it on and always use all points. If you leave it on it may focus on the closest thing it finds.

Your camera focusing isn't always what would cause some people to be in focus and some out in a group. You may have enough Depth of Field but the AF system choose the closest thing. With one point you can focus on the area or spot you want to be the center of your focus.

If you do not plan on shooting fast moving things, sports, birds, running kids you would probably be as well off with the 70D. 19 points scattered over the screen are still enough for still objects.

[Silkylead]

Thank you sir. My budget is more geared to the 70d ...hopefully it will be a smart decision. And if video isn't my real goal...it seems like a body only decision ...using my 15-85 lens is a smart choice. I've read that there isn't a lot of difference in iq between the 70d and 7D ii. ... .... so I guess my last concern would be should I wait for an upgrade to the 70d ...
But that may be a while....and it's hard to be without a camera!

[Anthony M]

I just bought a refurb 70D for $717, I believe that the 70D can be had for under $750 with the 18-135 STM, which is a fine lens.
The 70D is a replacement for my 60D, which I've just sold. I don't expect it to hold a candle to my 6D, at least as far as IQ.

I bought it for a couple of reasons. The first and foremost is for my video work. While it's not going to have quite the quality of the 6D, it will certainly be easier to use, and I can actually focus the camera, and don't have to break out my follow focus.

The second reason is that it's basically the same AF system of the 7D(1). Just to throw it out there, when the 7D came out people were having problems with its complex AF system, all those points and all those settings. Steep learning curve! Of course, compared to the 7DmkII, it's downright primitive. For my purposes however, it's perfect! I recently got the Tamron 150-600, and as much as I enjoy it on the 6D, the additional reach, along with a much, much better overall AF system and fast burst rate will be just what the doctor ordered. The lens needs a fair amount of light to be at its best, and what a coincidence! So does the camera. A match made in heaven, as was the Tamron and the 7D before the new one came out.

There's also a couple of things I like about the 70D that the 7DmkII doesn't have (for better or worse). First, the articulated screen. Once you use one, you start liking it. I don't have to crawl on my knees for some shots, and I can also hold the camera over my head. I thought this would be a useless feature on my 60D, and I fell in love with it. The second thing is that the camera is smaller and lighter than the 7D's. All metal build is great. Plastic is wonderful. Plastic doesn't scuff. The paint doesn't wear off, it's black all the way through. It bounces. It doesn't dent. Once you get over the not feeling like a tank, you start to appreciate it not weighing as much as a tank.

Honestly, you would be very hard pressed to find any IQ difference between the 7DmkII and the 70D. In fact, the difference between these and the last generation sensors is pretty subtle. I've got photos I took with my 60D, heck, my XTi that are just as nice as my 6D.

I had every intention of getting the 7DmkII, and then I re-read about the 70D. And as much as I wanted the latest and greatest, the 70D made the most sense for what I use it for. The 6D will still be my go-to for stills. But for video, the 70D has advantages over the 7DmkII, and the 19 cross point AF system is every bit as complicated as I really feel like dealing with.

You might want to consider the refurbs if they're still available. Basically brand new cameras, or with almost no use with the advantage of having been checked out and tuned by hand. With a $200 plus savings, that could help pay for a flash or a 24mm pancake!

[Kayaker72]

Hi Silkylead.....

Below are images of the AF points of the 70D vs 7D II AF points. The camera is capable of focusing on each single point or using multiple points to achieve focus:

70D:
2352

7DII
2353


So, you can see that the 7DII has 65 vs the 19 AF points of the 70D and that they are spread out further across the frame. This is very helpful, especially, as others have noted, for wildlife photography.

But, it doesn't seem like that is what you need. The 70D is a very capable camera. As mentioned, refurbished cameras go on sale all the time. I just checked, and it is currently soil out in body only, (http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras/eos-70d-body-refurbished) but is available (http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras/eos-70d-18-55mm-is-stm-kit-refurbished-camera)in kits with different lenses (http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras/eos-70d-18-135mm-is-stm-kit-refurbished). So, you could buy the kit and then sell the lens if you do not want it. Or wait for a refurb to go on sale again, which happens every couple of months. I own two lenses that were bought from the refurbished store, both are excellent.

For your low light needs, you may want to keep your eye out for lenses with wider apertures to supplement your 50 f/1.8. I would consider the 24 f/2.8, 28, f/2.8, 35 f/2 IS, 85 f/1.8, and 100 f/2, depending on which focal length you may use.

Good luck.

Edit---the 70D has popped up as available at the refurb store (http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras/eos-70d-body-refurbished?WT.mc_id=C126149).

[Anthony M]

The 70D body is back in under refurbs! I just checked earlier this morning and it was gone.

BTW, I've been running around taking shots with my 70D that just arrived - I'm delighted!
They really have made some significant improvements over the 60D, the noise level is lower and out of camera JPEG's are actually useful!
Not missing the spot AF mode a bit either - and the AF in general is really fast and quite accurate. Very cool little camera - this'll get a lot of use!

[Silkylead]

Ordered the "body-only" version of the Canon 70d from B&H last night. I am hoping for good shots with my 15-85 IS .... Thanks contributors!

[Anthony M]

Ordered the "body-only" version of the Canon 70d from B&H last night. I am hoping for good shots with my 15-85 IS .... Thanks contributors!

Congratulations! If you've got a 15-85, I'm not sure what lens you would want at the moment. I'll be surprised if you're not happy. Bryan downplayed the performance in his review, I find a noticeable improvement over my 60D in not only resolution, but ISO noise as well. No, it's not huge, but a nice step. I'm really excited to stretch its video legs soon. The AF performance is just a hoot all the way around.