Upgrading body - lens help please.

[Magijr]

Hello,
I am looking to upgrade from my 60D possibly to the 7D Mark II. I currently primarily shoot with EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM. Should I keep the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM or also upgrade the lens to either the Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM or the Canon EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM? I understand I lose some of the wide angle, but I find myself zooming in and shooting in 35mm to the 55 mm range more often then not.

Please feel free to recommend additional lenses, camera bodies and ask me questions.

Thank you for looking, thank you for your help.

Bruce J.

[DavidEccleston]

What do you shoot? What are you hoping to get from a 7D2 that you don't have on your 60D?

If you don't need the 10FPS / super AF tracking of the 7D2, then for a similar price, the 6D would get you a higher quality image (but you would definitely need to switch lenses at that point, as the 6D is full-frame and requires EF lenses, and will not take EF-S lenses)

Hard to steer you in one direction or the other without knowing what you want a) from the upgrade, and b) from your shots in general.

[Magijr]

Hi David,

Thanks for the reply. I photograph my family mostly. I have a three year old boy and my wife and I just had our second child 8 weeks ago. I have a 60 mm macro for the close up infant pics, and I need a great zoom as my son is getting faster and faster. Ive taken 25K+ pics in just three years, love photography!! Only hobby though.

I want higher IQ from the upgrade, 100% view finder, and maybe the WiFi (6D), and the most up to date technology (not sure if that applies to camera bodies like it does to computers, tablets and phones).

The 10 FPS definitely appeals to me, but not the end all be all. My cousin shoots with a 7D and lives and dies by it. The body of the 7DII is an upgrade (magnesium), but so would the 6D. Those are the two I'm contemplating between... does this help, would you go with the 7DII, 6D or stay with the 60D?

Is full frame the way I should go? 5Ds or 5Dr?

[jrw]

What is it that a new camera body will allow you to do that your 60D won't let you do?
Unless there is some specific need for what you are planning to do with it you may be better off exploring a different lens or two instead to increase the range of what you can do.

[jrw]

Edit: I see you answered some of that while I was pecking away at the keyboard.

[Magijr]

I appreciate your response. I guess I wanted to know if after three years, 25,000 pics and an outdated camera later if there was something better. The view finder in the 60D is annoying, other than that the camera is good. Is the 7DII a better choice than the 6D, or should I upgrade my lense and keep the 60D?

Thanks again for your response.

Bruce

[jrw]

The funny thing is that there is almost always something newer available to purchase. It is only better for you when it meets a need that your current equipment can not fulfill. The zoom lens you have is not one that folks would call a bad one by any means.
Backing up a bit, What do you do with your images? Prints to what size, sharing on social media, digital picture frames perhaps? Unless you print rather large on a regular basis then 50MP isn't something you really require from a camera. If you don't frame tightly in camera and crop your images do you still have enough resolution for your end purposes? If so then a 100% viewfinder, while nice to have, isn't a necessity and this approach can help with moving targets. When I was doing contract sports shooting the companies only wanted images of around 10 MP which was sufficient for all their print needs and took up a lot less storage space. Loose framing allowed cropping the images to 8x10 and not lose body parts in the process. The slightly deeper depth of field from greater distance or shorter focal length helped to ensure that fast moving subjects would be sharply in focus as well. As far as outdated equipment goes the preferred body for this work remains a 1D3 as it has the right resolution for their needs while being low cost on the used market.
At work we still use an original Canon Rebel for our still shots. It still works fine and provides all that is needed for the job at hand.

Hope that something in my rambling helps.

[DavidEccleston]

If you don't have something specific you don't like about the camera, the camera is the last thing to upgrade. Lenses make a bigger difference. A 60D is not outdated. They're only at the next model. Unless you're finding yourself at ISO 1600+ most of the time, and the noise levels are bugging you, your 60D is fine. I have a fullframe body that generally stays home because it's extra big and extra heavy. If you're lugging around things for two kids, the last thing you need is a bigger, heavier camera.

Lenses on the other hand, can change how things appear. An ultrawide angle can make the "very" immediate foreground appear large, while the background is pushed way out to the distance. You can get a distorted look, like the first two images here, or non-distorted, like the last.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3903/14229855640_038dfb0be2_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nFrJjC) https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5568/14229855810_36a90ce5a9_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nFrJny) https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3874/14902858497_db1b8e3bc5_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oGV3Ca)
My, what a big nose you have (https://flic.kr/p/nFrJjC) by Dave E (https://www.flickr.com/photos/15493374@N03/), on Flickr
Bobble Head (https://flic.kr/p/nFrJny) by Dave E (https://www.flickr.com/photos/15493374@N03/), on Flickr
Puppy daytime, gnawing (https://flic.kr/p/oGV3Ca) by Dave E (https://www.flickr.com/photos/15493374@N03/), on Flickr

A telephoto can let you capture things you can't get close to, animals, the way your children play when you're not hovering over them with "the camera".

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5194/14232270616_7c7b5b1440_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nFE7d9) https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8297/7869276842_2b2925561c_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/cZo6QW)
Goslings swim (https://flic.kr/p/nFE7d9) by Dave E (https://www.flickr.com/photos/15493374@N03/), on Flickr
Jumping the waves (https://flic.kr/p/cZo6QW) by Dave E (https://www.flickr.com/photos/15493374@N03/), on Flickr

Your f/2.8 lens is pretty fast, so I won't do a series of "wide aperture" images, but something like one of the Sigma Art f/1.4 primes will make your background extra bokeh-licious.

What images are making your feel like you're not getting similar results? Most likely, it's not an issue with noise levels, it will be one or more of:

a) Lighting. Lighting isn't just speedlights, but morning/evening light vs. noon. Using a diffuser to soften the light. Open shade. Direction of light. Shots of shadows. Lots of free options to explore here. Heck, an old thin sheet can be a very big diffuser, or double as studio a backdrop.

b) Framing/Composition. Tight framing, even cutting parts off of the face. Not every hair has to be in every shot. Loose framing, showing the environment, leaving "breathing room" around your subject. Composing for rule of thirds, artfully angled, or even subject dead-center. Each one has a different mood/feeling to it.

c) Perspective. This is a mix of lens choice, and camera/subject placement. I covered wide vs. tele looks above, so I'll focus on camera/subject placement. Shooting up, from down low, to exaggerate height. Shooting down low at a low subject (kids/dogs) to mimic their perspective and give a better background. Shooting from way above. From up a ladder, up a tree, up a cliff, whatever. Mix it up.

or even d) Location. Do you shoot your family at the same places, over and over. The house. The yard. The park. Perhaps you're bored of *where* you shoot, not of (or not just) how you're shooting it. Go for a hike, get shots of the 3 year old exploring a forest. Dress the kids up and take them somewhere to make an interesting shot. Perhaps they're bandits, or spies, or piano virtuosos, or they're on their way to Mars. Recreate movie posters or something. Find an idea that makes you *want* to shoot.

[jamsus]

The 60D is quite a good camera, i'm practically shooting only with it and the only limit that i found is "AI-Servo" focusing the flying birds, something that this camera isn't build for :)!

In my opinion, if you "feel" to change but you don't want to go full sport\bird hunting, you should safe some money and go with a 6D full frame, and keep the 60D as backup or second body - the 7DMkII is not the evolution you want.

The 17-55 f2.8 is a really good lens too

[Kayaker72]

Hey Bruce....

Congratulations on the 2nd. I am about to go spend the weekend with my brother/sister in law who have two little ones (2+ and just 0+). I am looking forward to it. Those ages are a lot of fun.

Regarding how to upgrade, it does really depend on what you want. As others are saying, the 60D is a good camera. Several members are posting great pictures with it or other similar cameras. But that doesn't mean that you can't "improve" upon it. Just bare in mind, "improve" may be marginal.

The 7DII. I loved my 7D. It was the ergonomics as much as anything, but just a great all around camera as it combined good AF, fps, etc. And the 7DII is better in just about every respect. Over the 60D the first thing I will point out is that you will be able to AFMA you lenses. Often, for me, AFMA results in minor improvements, but, once in awhile, I AFMA a lens and it is suddenly so much better than before.

Some comparisons of the 7DII to the 60D: Spec List (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=736&CameraComp=963), Sensor (http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-60D-versus-Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II___663_977), and resolution (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=4&LensComp=458&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=4). The 7DII clearly has better specs. Those that jump out to me are the fps, AF system, and metering system. You should expect better overall performance from the 7DII. You mention 100% viewfinder, the 7DII has that. The sensor specs start to show the difference. Not only do you have 20 MP (slightly more), but you get better dynamic range, tonal and color performance from those pixels. Not up to a FF sensor, but better, typically by ~0.5 stops, maybe 0.7 stops over the 60D. Will that help, sure, if you are limiting yourself to ISO 400 in some situations, you can likely now use ISO 640. Then the resolution, the 7DII is slightly nicer, IMO. This could be due to the MP, or, a better AA filter. So, the big difference to me is the specs, but you could expect a small bump in IQ as well.

Comparing to the 6D to the 60D: Spec List, (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Camera-Specifications.aspx?Camera=736&CameraComp=819) Sensor (http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-60D-versus-Canon-EOS-6D___663_836), and resolution (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=4&LensComp=458&CameraComp=819&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=4). I've heard the 6D called the FF version of the 60D, and looking at the specs, I can see why. Very similar. Thus, I would expect a similar experience. Once exception is people talk about the low light AF of the 6D, and you can see it AFs down to -3 EV. You do gain Wi-Fi and GPS. But your viewfinder is the same. But, you see a distinct jump in sensor performance. Approximately 2 stops across the board. In other words, if you limited yourself to ISO 400, now, you could shoot ISO 1600. Big difference in the sensor. Also, ISO 100 would have better color rendition, tone, etc. But do note, you will only see those differences in certain situations. Also, I seen a nice difference in the resolution.

All of that said, I think the 7DII is one of the best "all around" cameras. One camera and you can use it for most things. Its weakness would be low light situations, but, honestly, that is a limited weakness as eventually with all cameras you will need to create your own light.

But this brings me to where others have already suggested, the camera body is only one area where you could upgrade. Others include:

Lenses. Based on what you've said, the EFS 17-55 is a good lens. But adding a fast prime like a Sigma 35A/50A would give you increased sharpness, bokeh, and allow you to photograph in lower light. Something like a 70-200 will give you more reach and a EFS 10-18 or 10-22 could be UWA.
Lighting. Do you have a flash? I used my 7D, EFS 15-85 and 580EX for years for indoor shots. Actually, I just found out that a friend, who had a professional photographer, just finished her wedding album and, I was told but I have seen it yet, contains "mostly" my shots taken with that combination (the wedding was before I upgraded to the 5DIII).
Support. Tripods slow you down, make you a deliberate photographer. They also allow for slow shutter speeds for waterfalls or to blur people and will allow you to run back into the shot so you can start taking some family portraits.
Filters. I love 'em. I probably have too many. CPLs and ND filters simply allow you to do or enhance different things.
Transportation. By this I mean bags. Back packs, pouches, etc. But good ones really help get you to where you want to be.
Storage. Where to you store your gear? I have heard safes, gun safes, and pelican cases go by.
Accessories. Memory cards, remotes, cable releases.


So, there is a lot there. Hopefully not overwhelming. But as you can see, you can pick what you want and go with it. As others have said, I've always found it best to shoot until you have found a need and solve it. But, you can also anticipate your eventual needs, as you might want to do with a growing family, and have an upgrade plan to meet those needs.

Good luck...let us know what you decide.

[Magijr]

Hi all,

Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond. Your comments have certainly given me a lot to chew on. I'll answer the questions to several comments.

1) What do you do with your images?
-I shoot family photos mainly. I publish them into books (Shutterfly), large prints for walls / gifts 8X10 or bigger, and share on social media. My family has a couple young web designers and they like to shoot with my camera for the resolution.

2) Do you have a flash?
-I do shoot with a flash when needed - Speedlite 430 XII

I don't have something specific I dislike about the 60D, overall its a great camera and I've had a lot of fun with it. The view finder takes a little getting used to and I still chop off some of the image once in a while.

I'm thinking that my best decision is to upgrade the lens. The 17-55 is great, but is the Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM a better choice for me? I understand I'm losing some wide angle, but I like the additional focal length.

What lens would be a great all around lens and have the best focal length? Should I pair a zoom and a prime?

Thank you again for your assistance!!

Bruce

[DavidEccleston]

The cheapest way to find out if the 24-70mm is a better fit for you, is to rent one. If your city has a large photography store, they likely offer rentals. If you're in the USA, there's LensRentals.com, so you don't even need a large store nearby.

To get a rough idea of how much a change in focal length that is, check out the 24-70mm F/4L IS USM review (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-24-70mm-f-4-L-IS-USM-Lens-Review.aspx). The second row of examples has a both a 55mm and 70mm view. Mouseover to see the difference. Is that reach improvement worth the extra money to you? I'd find it hard to justify. If you're on the fence, a rental can be a relatively cheap way to make the choice.

[Kayaker72]

Hey Bruce,

The 24-70 II on a 60D would be approximately a 38-112 mm lens. When shooting on the 7D, I considered this option as it would be great as a group and individual portrait lens.

However, I would not be very wide. If you got the 24-70 II, I would be tempted to hold on to the 17-55 as a general purpose lens, or get an UWA lens as well.

Great lens, BTW.

[Joel Eade]

You may also want to try the 24-105 and the 70-200mm alongside your current 17-55mm ....that would be a very nice set of lenses for general purpose shooting

[peety3]

...and I need a great zoom as my son is getting faster and faster.

Define "great zoom". To some, the best zoom is a prime lens (best image quality). To some, the best zoom is 0.5 pounds. To some, the best zoom is f/1.8. To some, the best zoom is a 10x range. To some, the best zoom would be a 200-500.


I want higher IQ from the upgrade, 100% view finder...

What's wrong with the IQ you're getting now? Is it something that's the fault of the body? What's wrong with a sub-100% viewfinder? Are your shots so time-critical that you can't crop them?


The 10 FPS definitely appeals to me, but not the end all be all. My cousin shoots with a 7D and lives and dies by it. The body of the 7DII is an upgrade (magnesium), but so would the 6D. Those are the two I'm contemplating between... does this help, would you go with the 7DII, 6D or stay with the 60D?

Why is the incremental frame rate (5.3->10) so important to you? Do you have the infrastructure necessary to deal with it? Do you have the light (via aperture, ISO, or existing ambient/artificial light) to support the shutter speeds necessary to achieve 10fps? Do you realize that even the best cameras out there only capture 4% of time with their high frame rates, and the other 96% of time goes by while the shutter is closed?


Is full frame the way I should go? 5Ds or 5Dr?
You have five current FF options out there: 6D, 5D3, 5Ds, 5DsR, 1Dx. You have five older options: 5D, 5D2, 1Ds, 1Ds2, 1Ds3. Do you have the lenses to support it? If you've got the EF-S 17-55 and you switch to the 24-70 on FF, you're probably going to miss that last 18mm you've given up. I for one really missed what my 70-200s could do on APS-C, and bought a 300/4 as an interim until the 100-400II became a reality.

[Dave Throgmartin]

Full frame opens the door to requiring expensive lenses although you seem game based off your asking if the 24-70 f/2.8 II is a good pick.

Both your 17-55 and 60mm macro won't work on full frame.

I shoot full frame, but with a really bare bones "L" kit: 17-40L, 24-105L, 70-200 f/4 L USM (non-IS), and 100L macro. The 100 macro is night and day my best lens. I also really like the 70-200 and 17-40. The 24-105 is just ok, there's loads of distortion on the wide end and my copy suffers from zoom creep.

Used prices for every one of my lenses besides the macro is about $500. Most full frame users on the various forums have higher end lenses.

Dave

[jrw]

Family photos - to get better IQ out of the camera a good prime can deliver that along with shallower depth of field. Focal length choice will vary with shooting style. Having two, one for wide one for tighter shots, will allow you to mix things up somewhat for variety. Further developing image processing skills can also make for a huge difference in final results, usually more than changing from one lens to another.

Flash - Are you using this on or off camera? Straight on, bouncing, modifiers? I know more questions. Try taking a look at 'The Tangents Blog' by Neil van Niekirk for a lot of ideas on how to make use of flash if you feel you could improve on what you have been doing.

Great all around lens - This may be the Holy Grail of photography gear. On full frame my one lens to take when I only take one is a toss up between the 24-105, 24-70, and 16-35. It all depends on where I am headed and what I hope to find. When taking two lenses it is usually the 24-70 and perhaps a 100mm macro or 70-200 depending on what I hope to come with. The pictures you take now and the ones you want to take that your lens selection can't cover will be your best guide to narrow down the choices. Focal length selection is very much a style decision by the photographer which can lead to some interesting discussions on the choice. The guidelines posted on this site, and elsewhere, are a good starting point to help narrow things down a bit. Over time each develops their own preference.

[Magijr]

I decided to go with the 6D and the Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD. I will be taking the 6D, Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD, Canon 50 1.4 and the Canon 70-200 F4 to New Hampshire this weekend. Since I bought the 6D and the Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD from BH I have a few weeks to decide if I want to keep it or not. I am looking forward to shooting with the 6D. Thanks again for all your constructive help!! As always, any advice or comments are welcomed.

[Kayaker72]

Hey, congrats. Where in NH?

[Magijr]

We rented a house in North Conway, NH. My wife and I have been going to the White Mountains (N.Conway, Jackson) for over 10 years. We are so excited to share this amazing place with our three year old son. We are hoping to go to Story Land, Santa's Village (Jefferson NH), do a mild hike, canoe and of course Zebs!!

Do you have any additional recommendations for us? Thanks again!!

[Kayaker72]

Up around Storyland, in terms of restaurants: Margarita Grill in one of our favorites, as is "Glen Junction" for breakfast. They have a family/train theme, but also good food. Activities with a 3 yr old can be a challenge and not sure how suited waterfalls may be, but I'll let you be the judge. Glen Ellis falls is right off the road. You have to descend ~80 ft down steps to get to the base. Crystal Cascades is behind the AMC Visitor Center off Rt 16 in Pinkham notch. That is ~0.3-0.4 miles hike up hill (Tuckerman Ravine trail). I've always enjoyed driving the loop 16B makes in Jackson and there is a series of waterfalls right along side the road and a couple of covered bridges.

In Conway, Café Noche is another favorite restaurant. The "Scenic Railway" train is a option that you've likely thought of. Diana's Baths is another waterfall that isn't too much of a hike that is on the Mout Mtn side of Conway.

There are plenty of good spots to canoe. Around Conway, a favorite is Brownfield bog in Maine. The put in is really just a steep wide spot off a gravel road, but it has a lot of twists and turns though a marsh. If you head to the other side of the Whites, Long pond is small, but very scenic. You pass right by "Lost River (http://www.lostrivergorge.com/index.php)" on the way to Long pond. Of course for waterfalls, the famous "Flume" is on the other/Franconia Notch side. That may be approaching an "easy" hike, but it really gets down to what you think is easy (I know those that do not think it is), and it would be too much for a toddler unless you are carrying them somehow. "The Basin" is a cool waterfall a short hike just off I-93 over there.

Of course, the very easy stops are just driving the loop from Conway, through Crawford notch, then Franconia Notch and back to Conway through the Kancamagus. In that loop you'll pass a few ponds, waterfalls, Mt. Washington Hotel (drinks on the porch?), Cog Railway (there are some small waterfalls just off the road on the way), Franconia Notch (Gondola to summit), The Basin, Lincoln, overlooks and different waterfalls (Sabbaday, Rocky Gorge, Lower Falls, etc) just off the Kancamagus.

Best thing I can do is recommend "Quiet Waters: New Hampshire/Vermont" to find a canoe location, and then for waterfalls, "New England Waterfalls" has both a book and website (http://newenglandwaterfalls.com/). Both are very good books and have been how I discovered much of New Hampshire.

Hope you have a good trip.