Tilt shift lens advice

I really enjoyed the discussion that was started on the tilt shift lenses a few months ago.
I wish we could continue this topic as I would like add this technique to my portfolio.

I have the following questions.
I have reviewed the canon lenses and would like some input into what focus length those who use any of these lenses find most useful
(17 24 45 90?)
I am leaning to a longer focus length as I have liked what I have seen in image reviews. I don't really know where to fit this in to my wedding portfolio so that is why I am not sure what focal length to start with.
I am willing to invest the time to learn to use it correctly.

Second has any one ever heard ofArsat Arax Photex 35mm f/2.8 Tilt Shift Lens or any of products by this manufacturer as the price point is almost half of canon.
I use all canon equipment now and I should not shy away from the price point but this is such a new area I am not sure I want to make the investment.

So any comments on tilt shift are appreciated not just equipment reviews.

As always
Thank you.
still getting used to the new forum

I went with the TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II. TS lenses correct perspective distortion and allow you to alter the DoF - but they don't alter the angle of view. So, ultimately you need to pick a focal length based on the usual criteria for such a choice. If you want to shoot wedding rings, the 24mm is not the best choice, if you want to shoot church exteriors, the 90mm probably won't work for you.

Arsat/Arax are the names of lenses produced by Arsenal, they're a Ukranian lens manufacturer, mostly in Pentacon 6 / Kiev 60 and Kiev 88 Medium Format lenses. They are also closely related to Hartblei (who take Arsenal lenses and re-fit them out)
For your history lesson of the day, here's lots of background reading, check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_(brand)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Arsenal_factory
http://pentaconsix.com/RussUkrdata.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartblei
http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/20...report--review
http://www.kievaholic.com/lensspecifications.html
hartblei.com (old designs, damn cheap, can't buy new any more)
hartbeli.de (since they joined up with Zeiss AG, with Zeiss pricetags)

tl:dr
Basically, after WW2 when germany got split down the middle, Carl Zeiss had a factory in Jena. They produced Pentacon Six Lenses. At some point, the designs for camera and lenses were copied by the Arsenal/Kiev factory in the Ukraine. Kiev 60 was almost a direct ripoff of the Pentacon Six, Kiev 88 ripped off the Hasselblad 1000. These cameras were damn cheap (Today you can get a full Medium Format Film setup with 5-10 primes for under $1000).
Quality control on the bodies and lenses were notoriously bad, so companies like Hartblei bought up lots of stock, rebuilt and rebadged them into 'working units' and added a bit of margin.

At some point, at either Hartblei or Arsenal some smart guy decided to mount an Arsenal/Arsat Medium Format lens on a 35mm body, and with the 20mm extra space they could fit a tilt and shift mechanism in. Thus began the Hartblei Super-Rotator, with the deeply scalloped rings like in the photozone review. These were *cheap*. Like a 45mm TS-E for under $500. And because they were medium format lenses, they were pretty sharp on 35mm. Arsenal also made their own tilt/shift in the Arsat/Arax name, which were basically the same but not as famous as the super-rotators. They also rotated and shifted completely independant of each other, in any direction at once, which greatly added to their popularity. The old canons don't, only the new 17 and 24mk2 finally have this capability.
(these now cost about $1000, like http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HARTBLEI-...item3f07b62aa3)

Now, eventually, the Super-Rotator became too popular. Until the early 2000s, they were just running off New Old Stock (typical soviet production-targets, far exceeded demand so they just had warehouses full of them). So when they ran out of stock they had to redesign them and build new. They had always used Carl Zeiss Jena optics designs, so when they went to make more, they collaborated with Carl Zeiss AG to make the new bunch of superrotators. These now cost well into the thousands, more than the canon TS-E line. These have a different look, finely cross-hatched rings instead of the deep-scallops of the first bunch.
(see hartblei.com for old designs, hartblei.de for new designs. the new ones go for thousands: http://www.hcam.de/en/Pricelist_10_2011.pdf)

You can also just get any Pentacon Six / Kiev 88 lenses (down to 45mm or 35mm fisheye) and use them through a $100 "tilt adaptor" on almost any 35mm camera. I've got a heap of them (Zeiss 50/4, 80/2.8, 180/2.8, Arsenal 35/3.5 fisheye, 65/3.5, 90/2.8, 250/3.5), any of them you can get off ebay for $100 or less ($100-200 for the 35 fisheye or zeiss 180/2.8). The zeiss lenses are damn sharp, Arsenal not so much, very unit-specific.
For product (like wedding ring) photography, you probably won't need shift, get an 80/2.8 biometar and tilt adapter for $200. Only thing is you can't get too wide, the 45mm Arsenal is soft, the 50mm f/4 Zeiss flektogon is great, sharp, but slow and 50mm isn't exactly wide, the 35 fisheye is huge, heavy, flares like anything, and has fisheye/barrel distortion.
None of them would be as wide or sharp as the Canon TS-E 17 or 24mk2, but then, you can get a range of about 10 prime lengths in tilt-only for about the same price...

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Originally Posted by iND

I really enjoyed the discussion that was started on the tilt shift lenses a few months ago.
I wish we could continue this topic as I would like add this technique to my portfolio.

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Hi, I actually started the thread when I got my 24mm TS-E. I couldn't find any simple explanations on how to use it on the web so my plan was to begin to document my learning's. Then someone directed me to Cambridge in Color and that gave me a nice jump start I needed into using the lens. Since then, I've used it quite a bit for landscapes using the simple tip discussed in that thread, Focus for Distance, Tilt to Foreground. But, I haven't begun to start to use it for selective focus yet, which will bring another level of learning. Plan to experiment with that over the winter. I'm pretty happy with the 24mm and like the results with the 1.4 tele attached as well. Sometimes I think about adding the 90mm to the mix but have no desire for the 17mm.

I have always been very curious about them. Is there an online lens rental that anyone recommends? I know that none of the local shops around here have them for rent.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

I have always been very curious about them. Is there an online lens rental that anyone recommends? I know that none of the local shops around here have them for rent.

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LensRentals.com. You can find rental links at the bottom of Bryan's reviews.

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Originally Posted by Don Burkett

Sometimes I think about adding the 90mm to the mix but have no desire for the 17mm.

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Same, here. Was looking at a scene today that was crying out for shift and telephoto compression. But, I'm going to hold out for the TS-E 90mm to get an update to MkII or more likely, L. I really like the ability to change the relative orientation of tilt and shift on-the-fly that the TS-E 24mm MkII (and 17mm) offers, and I expect we'll see that added to the 45mm and 90mm versions at some point.

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

Same, here. Was looking at a scene today that was crying out for shift and telephoto compression. But, I'm going to hold out for the TS-E 90mm to get an update to MkII or more likely, L. I really like the ability to change the relative orientation of tilt and shift on-the-fly that the TS-E 24mm MkII (and 17mm) offers, and I expect we'll see that added to the 45mm and 90mm versions at some point.

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Totally agree. I use it to change relative orientation much more often than I would have ever imagined.

You guys are making me miss my TS-E 90mm something awful! :(