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I just got a new computer with aDell Ultrasharp 24 inch monitor. I calibrated it with a Spyder 3Pro. When I look at a jpeg picture with Micrososft Office Picture manager (my default) they look over saturated, especially the green. However, when I use PS Elements they look more normal or even a bit washed out. Why does the same picture look different with the 2 programs? Do I need to set something with Windows XP or change a setting in Elements? Thanks.
It sounds like you may have two colour profiles conflicting. Have you removed Adobe Gamma? Elements may be ignoring the Spyder set ICC. Or alternatively Microsoft also has their own ICC profile tool that Microsoft Office Picture Manager may be relying on, and ignoring the Spyder profile. I'd check to see if there are any other ICC profile tools loaded or running on your computer, and then verify that neither of the programs have their own colour calibration setting that may be overriding Spyder. I suspect that PS Elements is the culprit. I don't have PS Elements, but I do know that colour calibration can be set independantly within the full Photoshop - when using hardware colour calibration (such as the Spyder) you have to deactivate any software colour correction. Not sure if that's much help.
Thanks for your suggestions. I don't know anything about removing Adobe Gamma or how to check for ICC profiles or how to set the profile within Elements. I am good with a camera, can rebuild a car engine and cook up a mean set of ribs on the grill though! Have a lot to learn about the computer side of photography.
Calibrating your monitor is just step ONE in establishing a color calibrated WORKFLOW..
The programs you use to view/edit/reproduce your images need to know what profiles are relevant and know how to use them.
Your monitor profile is a starting point for your reproduction on screen. Your viewing software can bypass it, or bypass profiles included inside the photographs, your printer, if you need it to accurately reproduce the pictures, also needs it profiles installed onto yor system, as do the profiles of the machines of your lab if you use a lab.
My guess is you have a calibrated monitor, and PS Elements respects the profile, AND the profile inside your pictures and renders the colors accurately. My guess is Picture Manager either bypasses the monitor profile or the profile inside the picture (or the xmp sidecar files or DNG specific RAW color rendering info).
We should make a post/article on these pages on how to properly calibrate a system because we get loads of questions asked about it in these forums.
I had a PC in for service with this problem. Microsoft picture manager was again the culprit.
So what was the solution to the Picture Manager problem? Does anybody know how to switch between color profiles with windows? Also, how does one know which profile is being used at any time? I want to make sure that the calibration I did with Spider 3 Pro is actually being used. I don't get any pop up window during boot up saying that the profile is being used.
You would suppose it would be in the Spyder manual.
MY guess is the profile is being used, but ignored by Picture Manager OR there is a screw-up in your color workflow (for example: wrong profiles INSIDE your pictures themselves, combined with ignored profiles by Picture Manager, that causes color rendering problems). Other than that I cannot help you because I am on a Mac. Anyone?
[edit]
A simple Google search cme up with this result (it refers to Adobe Gamma but you *should* be able to get Spyder's profiles to show up etc:
http://www.vistax64.com/vista-general/69609-colors-off-windows-photo-gallery.html
PhotogBill,
Have you tried Irfanview? www.irfanview.com I used MSOffice PictureManager for a long time then discovered Irfanview. Irfanview resamples your images for viewing on your monitor whereas MS PictMgr uses simple resize (pixel deletion) resulting in softer looking images. It's free. It also does a lot more. It does not use color management, so, if what I think is going on is going on, the color of the images you see with MS Pict Mrg will look the same in IrfanView. Another thing is that you might have your camera output set to Adobe Color Space rather than sRGB. If that's the case I would think PS Elements would be vivid and the MS Pict mrg would be muted. It doesn't hurt to check that. If that's the case the following stuff won't matter much.
The Dell 24 ultrasharp, should be, by default, an excellent monitor for Windows sRGB photography work. I imagine, based on what I've seen and purchased recently that the colors are quite bright and vivid by default. Sometimes too bright and vivid for my taste.
PS Elements does not support color managed workflow. It pulls the color table from whateverthe defaultvideocolor profile is set to. Spyder sets this with thier profile utility at windows startup. More than likely, Elements is double profiling. The colors you see are muted because the Spyder profile is muting the way too vivid default color output of that new Dell 24 US. Ps Elements gives you two working color spaces, Adobe and sRGB. It's color space converter is very limited and offers no rendering choices.
IMHO regarding color management. Unless you aremaking big bucksin the graphics arts/printing industry sell your Spyder3. It will cause you nothing but head aches. After 2 years of chasing Alice around wonderland, I have personally come to the conclusion that no one in the industry fully understands what color management is or how to implement it. Those that talk as experts on the topic, own very expensive monitors and printers that supportprofessional level color managed workflow. That leaves the rest of us with $300.00 monitors and $120.00 printers sliding down the rabbit hole.
If your like me and are printing with a printer likean HP that does not have color management nor any icc profile to color manage with, print out 4x6 test prints and adjust color as necessary with PS Elements or the color sliders in the print driver. You'll be doing that with color management on anyway. My life has become so much simpler now that I have given up the color management quest.
Try two things.
1) Move the Spyder profile manager shortcut out of your windows startup folder to your desktop. Reboot, and open an sRGB jpeg in PS Elements and MS Pict Mrg. Do they look the same or are the colors still different? If they look the same then PS Elements is doing what I thought. I'm serious, 86 the Spyder. Datacolor blames Adobe and Adobe blames Datacolor. The only workaround is to load the profile manually with the profile chooser after windows has started. I have found this the only way to avoid double profiling in Photoshop. (Elements and CS3)
2) If you purchased Spyder 3 "Pro" run the front end utility that allows you to set the white balance to 6500 and luminosity values to 20-24 on the black end and 110-120 on the white end. Part of the calibration routine will prompt you to adjust your monitor to set these values. If you just do that your monitor will be very close to correct and therewill beno need to run the rest of the calibration or load any color profiles at windows startup. Write down all of the custom monitor settings in case the monitor gets set back to defaults. All you have to do then is go back and set those up and your good to go!!
I don't know if it's obvious, but can you sensethe animosity I have towards color management?
Hopes this was a useful rant,
Chuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Lee
I cannot believe you came to this conclusion. It is not very hard to set up, it just involves a number of steps that depend on each other and if you forget one of them, color managed workflow is broken and won't work.
I will try and get back to the color management issue: I found a website that made it very easy for beginners, a while ago when I needed to do it myself. It was well written, easy to do, and my workflow is spot-on. What I capture/postproces, looks the same across all my software, what comes out of my printer, what comes back from the lab, or what is reproduced in CMYK/offset. It wasn't that hard. But I am on a mac. I hear it is harder to make it work in Windows. But that manual had tips for both platforms if I am correct.
In short:
1. DO calibrate your monitor (with an external colorimeter device, not with your eyes).
2. Make sure your pictures are profiled properly (some cameras do not include the color space info they were shot in in the pictures. with raw this is no problem (you get everything) but as soon as you shoot in jpg you *must* have pictures that have ICC profiles in them, like AdobeRGB or sRGB, depending on what you shoot. You can sometimes do this when importing them in Lightroom, or assign it later in in Photoshop for example. Make sure you profile them correctly).
3. Adjust ICC/Color settings in Photoshop and/or Lightroom.
4. Make sure profiles of your own printer are installed on your computer. This way when you print your computer knows the color space of your image/camera.monitor AND the color space of the printer and you can soft proof and adjust for output if/when necessary.
5. The same thing goes for your lab. (Different photo paper has different profiles and color qualities). Install them. You can soft proof before you send out and make adjustments if/when necessary.
That is basically it. When done properly you will have no issues with color inconsistency.
Madison,
Doyou use LR or Aperature for PP?
Do you remember the name of the website you used for calibrating your Mac? I just switched PC's over to using my wifes (much to her dismay)first gen Intel iMac 24" (about 3 years old I believe) and need to do this. I'm using LR2 for PP, print using an Epson R1800 at home, and use Exposuremanager.com as my lab (which I'm told I can get the ICC profiles for their printers ... just haven't had time todo all this yet).
Thanks in advance.
Dave
I am in Lightroom and Photoshop for PP, depending on what is needed. Most PP is Lightroom, but some stuff can only be done in Photoshop.
Lightroom has no soft proofing though, which is a problem for me.
I did find the website I used for color calibration but it is a Belgian website and all of it is in Flemish. It's not a problem for me because I am Dutch myself (the upper half of Belgium also speaks a language similar to Dutch called Flemish: they are very much alike). It would mean I would have to translate it all to English, which is going to take me some time.
Another good idea is to read 'Color Management For Dummies'. It's a lot of info for a dummies book, but the principle of a good workflow is in there. Although they do teach you HOW it works as well, rather than just tell you WHAT to do to make a color managed workflow, so you're gonna have to read through some more info than you think, but it's a good thing to know the mechanics behind it as well.
I dont have much time but I will try and translate it over the weekend. But I am not making any promises because I am very busy.
Meanwhile, users who have a properly calibrated monitor, can have a look at this tutorial (make sure you skip the sales picth in the beginning, the video is free to watch online) http://www.thedigitalphotographyconnection.com/LFDP_player.php?ID=111
I've had this problem.
Well, I have this problem. I did a lot of printing a few months back when my work went up in a local gallery. I went a bit nuts with this issue. I had a few smaller prints made, and they confirmed that the PS display was the accurate representation, while windows viewer showed the aberrant behavior. You can correct for this 'by feel' by going into proof setup in photoshop, turning proofing, and selecting 'monitor profile'. You'll se basically what windows viewer will show you.
My advice is to forget it. Windows viewer sucks, and you shouldn't alter your work for its sake. 90% of people have screwy or contrasty or just otherwise fugly displays. You'll never be able to calibrate for accurate viewing everywhere. So you may as well calibrate in as controled a manner as possible. Course, your mileage my vary.
Thanks so much for the offer Madison but I really wouldnt wantyou totake thetime to translate. I made a bad assumption thinking it was an English site. I'll do a search and see what comes up or I can use an internet translator (like babelfish?) maybe. Go ahead and just post the link if you don't mind and I'll brush up on this linguistic secret you call Flemish [;)]
btw- it appears LR2 now has soft-proofingmaybe?... I thought I saw something about it at one point. I've only been using it for a month now so i'm still a newbie at it.
Dave