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Does price trump all?
What a pickle I am in. Just wondering how you guys deal with this problem.
I don't know about others who shop for camera gear but I have checked out both mom and pop camera stores and large chain retailers and of course the wonderful internet. I have received such good service at this one store, but I also know their margins are low in comparison to places like B&H. I want to buy from them and support them but I am just not financially able to throw away a few hundred dollars like that. Are you guys driven by price or do you have a 'camera guy' you always go to to purchase things from regardless?
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Does price trump all?
What a pickle I am in. Just wondering how you guys deal with this problem.
I don't know about others who shop for camera gear but I have checked out both mom and pop camera stores and large chain retailers and of course the wonderful internet. I have received such good service at this one store, but I also know their margins are low in comparison to places like B&H. I want to buy from them and support them but I am just not financially able to throw away a few hundred dollars like that. Are you guys driven by price or do you have a 'camera guy' you always go to to purchase things from regardless?
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Re: Does price trump all?
Tough to accept but gotta admit that price drives me.
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Re: Does price trump all?
I will buy all my lenses and bodies from out of state stores with no sales tax (in california its close to 10% right now) but, for example, i bought a battery and a roll of film at my local camera store. I try to keep everything small local
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Re: Does price trump all?
I buy from reputable sellers with the lowest price.
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlau
Are you guys driven by price or do you have a 'camera guy' you always go to to purchase things from regardless?
If you can find a local place with an honest, friendly, trustworthy camera guy that provides good service, that's a good reason to buy there, even if it's 20% more. (IMHO.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosbyharbison
I will buy all my lenses and
bodies from out of state stores with no sales tax (in california its
close to 10% right now)
Did you know that you are evading taxes illegally?
The state of California (as well as my state and almost every other state, in fact) requires you to track all your out of state purchases, calculate how much sales tax you *would* have paid, then write them a check:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_tax
Most people are not even aware that they are illegally evading taxes when they buy online or by telephone without sending the tax into their State Dept. of Revenue.
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Re: Does price trump all?
As a highschool student who washes dishes for his main source of income, I can tell you that price is a big factor haha. Inflated rates of the smaller shops have just kept me out. Ex: I wanted my sensor cleaned. Local shop wanted close to $200 just to open up the camera. Canon Repairs cleaned it up for $50 plus $13 shipping.
Does it suck not supporting the little guys? Yeahh, but the line has to be drawn somewhere as to how much more you'll spend supporting him.
-Rodger
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Re: Does price trump all?
Now a view from the other side. I work for a Mon and Pop type computer store, people buy from us, for service, local support, and not having to be on hold for hour and then talk to someone from India!! Our prices are not as low as Dell and HP, but we do not have excessive markup. We are not getting rich here!! We remove viruses from computers, and reload windows for 60 to 90, which cost less and done better than Staples or Best Buy. We have been in business for over 20 years, so our business plan is working. I alway buy local, if possible, it supports the local economy. If you need support for your product it will be cheaper in the long run. I do buy my camera equipment from B&H, because of cost and the reputation for good service, and there is not a camera store of any kind within 90 miles of where I live.
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Re: Does price trump all?
Gunslinge,
I'm glad you posted that view. I guess the shops around my area are just expensive. If a local shop has good reputation, cheaper costs, friendly service, I'm there in a heartbeat. But I guess that still means cost drives my decision.. haha.
Rodger
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinh Nhut Nguyen
I buy from reputable sellers with the lowest price
I do same thing, and even more if it's a big purchasing, i'll carefully try those "unknown" store if risk only means paying return shipping and time, I'v tried couple of those, so far so good.
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
Did you know that you are evading taxes illegally?
good to know that, thank you!
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Re: Does price trump all?
I prefer a place that has a solid reputation for outstanding custmer service and will fix any problems I may have. Price is a low priority for me.
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Re: Does price trump all?
In my area there are a couple of local shops that know cameras inside out. And I try to use them if they are at all close to the good Internet places. That way I'm not sending money to some big shop in New York. More importantly, I get to try things out at the store, compare different lenses, and pick the brains of folks who may know stuff that will save me from making mistakes.
That said, I come to the store knowing what Amazon or Adorama is charging. If my local folks are charging two hundred more for some something, I will point out the price difference and ask if they can get closer to the Internet price. And if they can work with me, it means I have the best of both worlds.
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Re: Does price trump all?
Does Price Trump All?
IMHO, Yes.
jlau, you did not enter a Bio so I do not know where you are from, but here in eastern Virginia, U.S. where I live there arejust a few camera stores left. Two years ago I bought a Tamron 17-50 f2.8 DII from a local shop near to where I work. I paid an additional fifty dollars for the lens but got to try multiple copies before I bought. That and the fact that I was heading to the State Fair the next day witha newly purchased used 20D was worth the extra coin. In that situation convenience trumped price. However, the shop that I bought it from is no longer in business. My buying one new lens from them could not stop the inevitable.
It is unfortunate, but obviously a fact that our buying habits as well as social habits are changing. The days of the corner drugstore, community hardware, and gas stations withattendants are gone. The local community has gone from our neighbors on the same street to a host offacebook and forumfriends located around the world. Our storefronts have gone from main street to Google. We as capitalists will migrate towards the outlets that offer the best value. It's the same reason I have driven Toyotas for 26 yearsand not a Chevy or Ford.
Personally, I buy my photographic goods online most of the time from Adorama. I can shop, review, rate, and purchase whatever I want, anytime, night or day. This convenience, coupled with lower than retailpricing, cannot be trumped by a local store no matter how good their customer service and prices may be. I have purchased photography goods locally, but only when it was very convenient or a must have that day. I don't think too many stores will survive on those purchasing habits alone.
IMHO, you are not in a pickle, as much as you are empathetic to the changing world and sense of community we all live in. I applaud you for that. The stark reality is that things change. You cango with thechange or you can buck it. You have to weigh the cost/benefit, which it sounds like you have. The choice, as always,is solely yours.[:)]
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Re: Does price trump all?
I've rarely bought camera gear from traditional walk-in stores. What I really hate is that most of these stores don't put price tags on their items. This practice essentially eliminates the point of browsing, purposely makes comparison shopping harder, and actually forces me to look at competitors online. As a result, I only go to a local store if:
- I know exactly what I want and I need it immediately
- I need to try an item before I buy it
- I want to look at an item before I go online and buy it for less
- the item is cheap and is not worth bargain hunting for it.
Clearly, price is not the sole criterion by which I judge which retailer I purchase from. But the walk-in stores have not really made themselves attractive to me as a consumer. Their single biggest advantage is the immediacy and tangibility of the shopping process--I can take in a large number of items at once, get a sense of their scale and compatibility, and ask questions if I need to. If I want it I can walk out the door with it right then. I don't have to wait for shipping or deal with damaged goods. So it's a big deal that in the face of such a huge advantage, I still go online for important purchases, such as bodies and lenses, the bread-and-butter stuff. That's because I don't need someone to show me how to use an EF 100/2.8L macro IS, or tell me that I need it. I don't need someone to stand behind a counter and show off the 7D for me. Bodies and lenses don't satisfy any of the above criteria I mentioned, except possibly for (2), in which case rental is the smarter way to go, because then I can put the gear through its paces and actually *use* it.
Why buy online? It's not just price, though that is certainly a big factor. It's also the fact that I don't get upsold, or have to get someone's attention to do it. I can comparison shop FAR more easily and efficiently, and prices are clearly stated upfront. Walk-in store employees can be annoying and rude. I am often ignored, perhaps because I don't look like a middle-aged guy with deep pockets and no understanding of cameras. I look like the opposite--an art student (i.e., poor yet savvy) even though I'm not a student. I've walked into Samy's and the guy behind the counter will spend 30 minutes talking to some rich dude about the "necessity" of buying spare batteries, UV filters for his kit lens, and various accessories totaling several hundred dollars for his 50D when all he wants to do is take green box snapshots of his wife and kids; but the same employee won't (or can't) even give me a simple 10-second answer to a specific question I have about the availability of a quick release plate. WTF.
So yeah, I don't have much sympathy for the walk-in stores. They have a lot going for them, so if they can't compete, it's nobody's fault but their own.
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Re: Does price trump all?
I work out the total cost for the item... if it is with-in a few bucks or < 10% then I pick it up locally. I like having the option to physically walk in and return an item or have the issue fixed ASAP.
On a $1000 plus item I do my best to get it locally... most of the time the small store owner will adjust their price to make a sizable sale.
For example I picked up a TV locally. I went in and said I could buy the exact same TV on-online for say $3000 (including taxes and shipping) and showed all the paper work. The local store's price was $5500 - a massive difference of $2500. In the end I got it locally for $3300 (after taxes) but they delivered it, set it up, and calibrated the system. Luckily I purchased locally as after 11 month it die and required significant repairs - the locally guy showed up and fixed it under warranty. If I had purchased it on line I would have pay out of my pocket to get the 250 pound TV to a repair shop.
Example 2. I wanted to my a music server locally. The local prices was $4500 and on-line it was less than $2000. The local owner said he could not even come close to matching it and if I could buy it for that price I should although he said it would not service any warranty work on it and I would have to ship it back in that case at my cost. He was honest but I bought it online. I have since buy several items from them as I trust them to tell me the honest truth.
I have purchase most of my camera equipment locally just in case I needed it 'adjusted'. After all is said and done with the total price differences to date might be a few hundred dollars... but well worth the peace of mind.
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Re: Does price trump all?
As mentioned by others... I'll buy from what I know to be a reputable dealer with the best price. I see prices that beat B&H by large amounts quite often, but when you look into them they are, indeed, too good to be true.
I'd say my general rule is around 10%. If someone gives me consitantly better service than another business and is less that 10% more I'll pay for the service (good example was CompUSA vs Best Buy - CompUSA was a little more, but Best Buys employees tend to be largely clueless about their own stores products, whereas CompUSA generally had knowledgable employees).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
Did you know that you are evading taxes illegally?
The state of California (as well as my state and almost every other state, in fact) requires you to track all your out of state purchases, calculate how much sales tax you *would* have paid, then write them a check:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_tax]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_tax[/url]
Most people are not even aware that they are illegally evading taxes when they buy online or by telephone without sending the tax into their State Dept. of Revenue.
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>
Unless I'm mistaken it is the advertiser that is responsible for the taxes being collected and that California asks it's residents "Voluntarily" add up the taxes they would have paid and mail a check in to pay them. Hence, the buyer is breaking no law or doing anything illegal.
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Re: Does price trump all?
I would love to be able to browse a store for all the camera gear but I live (probably like alot of others) in a relatively rural area....ie no camera shop in town. I would have to drive about 90 miles one way to look through a store. No feasible way to do it without spending a ton of free time on the road,not to mention gas money. On-line shopping is much much easier and in most cases you can't beat the price. As far as service goes I bet most small shops would have to send lenses and cameras back to the manufacturer anyway for any type of significant repair. I've had my 40D and lenses for 2-3 years now with no problems at all....chances of needing service on these well built items is low in my opinion. I'm sure it happens but I'd rather box it up and send it than drive 90 miles to drop it off at a dealer.
Just my two centavos...
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Unless I'm mistaken it is the advertiser that is responsible for the taxes being collected
In this case you are mistaken. The seller is only responsible to collect taxes if they have a physical presence (e.g. brick and mortar store) in the same state as the buyer. Of course, many states are trying to get legislation passed to change that (unsuccessfully, so far).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
California asks it's residents "Voluntarily" add up the taxes they would have paid and mail a check in to pay them.
You misunderstand what "voluntary" means in this context. It does not mean "I volunteer to owe taxes." You owe the taxes no matter what. But the state (currently) has no way of proving how much you owe. If you never bought anything out of state, you would not owe anything. If you bought $100,000 out of state, you would owe $10,000. They can't tell either way. So they require you to "volunteer" the information honestly.
It's like working for a company that doesn't report to the IRS. If they pay you $100,000, but they never tell the IRS (via W-2 form), then there's no way for the IRS to know that you owe $30,000 in taxes. Legally, you are required to "voluntarily" inform the IRS that you were paid $100,000 and you are enclosing a check for $30,000 in taxes. The only difference is that the IRS is more shrewd and powerful than the states and it will catch you more often, whereas the states can only rely on your complete honesty.
What's funny is that many people don't even know that they owe such taxes. Of those who know, there is a high percentage that willingly choose to evade payment, simply because they know they can't get caught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Hence, the buyer is breaking no law or doing anything illegal.
It is tax evasion. Pure and simple. Most people don't *know* they are evading taxes, but it's still tax evasion, just like putting false information on your 1044.
Most states combine their use tax return with their income tax return, so that you cannot file your tax return without signing your name to the part that says "I did not buy anything out of state". There's another part that says "I did buy some things out of state. The total amount was $20,000 and I have I included $2,000 use tax payment", but fewer people check that box.
My state has no income tax, so we're required to file a Use Tax return every *month* to report the amount of out of state purchase and a check enclosed for an amount equal to what the sales tax would have been. Needless to say that no one does it. In fact, in the many years that I've been aware of the use tax requirements, I have never yet met one single person that was aware of it. Some of them are liable for tens of thousands of dollars in back taxes, not to mention the penalties and interest.
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Re: Does price trump all?
Well, LocallyI have two camera stores and both have been arogant and snobish.When I inquired about Canon products at one store, the guy told me that Albuquerque was a "Nikon" town. I normally like being able touch or hold something before I buy it and I like personal customer service, but this town has made it easy for me to buy from B&H, andthey have NEVER disapointed me.
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
In this case you are mistaken. The seller is only responsible to collect taxes if they have a physical presence (e.g. brick and mortar store) in the same state as the buyer. Of course, many states are trying to get legislation passed to change that (unsuccessfully, so far).
Therefore only people ordering their equipment from a business which also has a brick and mortar store fall under your original statement. Don't mean to nit pick, but youfairly generically stated anyone in California purchasing anything out of state was evading taxes. Most those talking about mail order have not stated where they are making their purchases. Ifsomeone in Cali is ordering from someone like B&H(a New York store) they are doing nothing wrong.
I'm in Washington, but I can't think of any company that is in my own state that I would end up mail ordering something from other than Amazon (and they are kind of an exception as they ONLY do mail order). An interesting question might be: If someone in Cali is ordering something from Amazon and Amazon is re-sellingit from a retailer in Cali... what are the legal responsibilities? Heh
Having to pay tax on orders from a business which has stores in your state I can see having to pay tax on, but the efforts to try and make people pay taxes on mail order purchases made from companies in other states is going too far. What happens if you WALK IN to Camera store in south Oregon buy a lens, then drivehome to northern Cali? Are they going to make you start paying taxes on that too? I don't see that they have any right to attempt to collect taxes on purchases like that.
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Re: Does price trump all?
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Therefore only people ordering their equipment from a business which also has a brick and mortar store fall under your original statement.
You have it backwards. Online sellers with a location in your state *are* required to collect sales tax, and they always do. Web sites with no such location are *not* required to collect sales tax, so most of them don't.
When they don't collect the salestax, you are liable to send it in for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Don't mean to nit pick, but youfairly generically stated anyone in California purchasing anything out of state was evading taxes.
No. When someone buys out of state from a web site that charges sales tax, of course they are not evading taxes. They paid them at the time of sale. It's only when they don't pay the taxes at the end of the year (or within 1 month in some states) that they have evaded taxes.
In my post I specifically quoted and responded to the following:
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"]"I will buy all my lenses and
bodies from out of state stores with no sales tax (in california its
close to 10% right now)"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Ifsomeone in Cali is ordering from someone like B&H(a New York store) they are doing nothing wrong.
Of course they are doing nothing wrong. As long as they calculate their tax liability and send a check to their state DOR. If they don't, then they are evading taxes illegally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
I'm in Washington, but I can't think of any company that is in my own state that I would end up mail ordering something from other than Amazon (and they are kind of an exception as they ONLY do mail order).
Howdy, neighbor! I live in Washington, too (Vancouver).
When you and I buy from Amazon.com, they charge us salestax at the time of purchase, so we don't have to calculate the tax and send in the form. But if we buy from all the other online web sites that don't charge sales tax, we are held liable to send the amount in directly to the Washington State Dept of Revenue ourselves by the 15th of the following month.
This is the form you are supposed to be filing every month, twelve times a year:
Washington State Consumer Use Tax Return Form
If you buy something on the 31st, you only have 15 days to send in the form before it becomes overdue and you become liable for penalties and interest. (Of course, most people have been buying things out of state without paying use tax for decades, so you can imagine the amount they owe!) Here is their little brochure about it:
Washington State Use Tax Brochure
The fact that you (and 99.9% of all of us Washingtonians) are evading taxes illegally is indisputable. Of course, you'll never get caught. And until now you didn't even know you were doing it. But that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal tax evasion, just like your boss paying you under the table instead of reporting your income to the IRS.
EDIT: [I see you edited your post with a few more questions. Here are the answers:]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
An interesting question might be: If someone in
Cali is ordering something from Amazon and Amazon is re-sellingit from
a retailer in Cali... what are the legal responsibilities? Heh
It's simple. If Amazon collects the sales tax, then you don't have to do anything. If they don't, and the retailer in Cali doesn't either, then you have to send in the salestax yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Having to pay tax on orders from a business which
has stores in your state I can see having to pay tax on, but the
efforts to try and make people pay taxes on mail order purchases made
from companies in other states is going too far.
Fair has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about what's *legal*. If you want to illegally evade taxes because you think the taxes are unfair, that's your choice. But it doesn't change the fact that you are still evading taxes illegally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
What happens if you
WALK IN to Camera store in south Oregon buy a lens, then drivehome to
northern Cali?
You must track the full amount that you spent, calculate what the tax rate would have been if you bought it locally (the city and zipcode where you put it "into use"), then send that amount into the state within one month. (Washington allows 15 days after the start of the next month, I'm not sure how much time California gives you, but certainly no more than 1 year.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Are they going to make you start paying taxes on that
too?
"Start"? It has been that way for decades! The rise of mail order catalogs, TV buying, and Internet purchases have only increased the frequency with which people evade taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
I don't see that they have any right to attempt to collect taxes
on purchases like that.
Well, your personal views don't change the fact that it's tax evasion. If you want to see it changed, you'll have to change how you vote or get politically active about it.
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
Howdy, neighbor! I live in Washington, too (Vancouver).
Where, of course, a favorite pastime is to drive across the Columbia River to Oregon (where I live), which has no sales tax. (Alas, we do have an income tax, though I usually don't have to pay any state income taxes, as about 92% of my military pension is not taxable by Oregon.) There's a big "outlet" mall south of Portland that does a bang-up business. The two times I've been there, it seemed that about half the cars had Washington plates.
I lived in California 1/87-5/94. I was legally a resident of Virginia and paid income taxes there, but I was subject to California's use tax for stuff I ordered from outside the state. In those days, it wasn't much, but, today, it could be considerable.
An RV dealer in my general area got into serious trouble a few years ago by helping buyers avoid paying taxes on RVs. The dealer would set up a PO box address for the buyer to use in registering the RV in Oregon, instead of California, say, which has a high annual tax on vehicles. The dealer got in trouble with Oregon and the Feds. No one went to jail, but the dealer did pay hefty fines and the RV owners had to pay back taxes plus interest and penalties.
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Re: Does price trump all?
It is interesting that this exact scenario is talked about very widely and quite openly locally. People will organize groups and even short vacations to do things like Christmas shopping. And yet... I've never heard a single mention that it might get you in trouble. You'd think it this was so blatantly illegal people wouldn't litterally "work in Washington" (i.e. live in Vancover) and "Shop in Oregon" (i.e. even their grocery shopping is done in Portland).
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Re: Does price trump all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Slusher
Where, of course, a favorite pastime is to drive across the Columbia River to Oregon (where I live), which has no sales tax.
Yes indeed! Most people have to go online to evade sales tax illegally, but for Vancouver residents it's just a quick 10-minute drive! What makes Vancouver even more special is that we don't have any income tax, so there is no annual return to fill out where tax evaders must perjure themselves by saying they never bought anything out of state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
It is interesting that this exact scenario
is talked about very widely and quite openly locally. People will
organize groups and even short vacations to do things like Christmas
shopping. And yet... I've never heard a single mention that it might
get you in trouble.
Yes, it is interesting, isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
You'd think it this was so blatantly illegal
people wouldn't litterally "work in Washington" (i.e. live in Vancover)
and "Shop in Oregon" (i.e. even their grocery shopping is done in
Portland).
You'd think so, huh? But those are the facts. I like to bring it up because I find it fascinating that so many people (99% IMHO) engage in hundreds or thousands of dollars of tax evasion every year. Most of them do it unknowingly, of course. They don't realize that it's the exact same as accepting money from your boss "under the table" without reporting or paying tax on it.
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Re: Does price trump all?
*It's all about balance*...
Find the right price and thena reputable retailer, i.e. BHPhoto or Adarama or in Canada; Henry's or Camera Canada.
Hope this helps...
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Re: Does price trump all?
I believe you are correct Daniel....
I live in Kentucky......several years ago my business was audited by the state and the only thing they found was that we had ordered a small quantity of office supplies from an out-of-state internet site and we failed to pay Kentucky sales tax on that transaction. It was a very small amount of money and they didn't penalize us. (but they could have)
According to the auditor they find this problem frequently and, as you said, most people don't even realize it's required to track those transactions and pay the tax. I suspect state governmentswill eventuallyfocus more attentionon this problem. You can bet they know how much money is involved.
