Boats??? Lens Choice? tracking? no clue here

This summer i will be taking photos of my frinends boat. It is a racing boat that is verrryy long and fast. Can go up to 200 mph. He races them all the time and they would like some picture of it going fast. I have seen other pictures of these boats and they are perfectly in focus with a perfect streaming motion blur backround. I know these are difficult shots to get. From what i can put together the other professional shots are done similar to ones of surfing shot from shore with a long tele-photo on a large tripod. Now how? I think its necessary to use tracking focusing like AI SERVO but i dont really know how to use other types of tracking etc. I shoot on manual usually and i heard its sometimes best to shoot aperature priority in this situation or shutter priority. Also is another type of metering mode necessary? im not familiar with shooting fast moving objects. Pan and Blur? I could really use some help. If i needed to rent a telephoto the most i could afford renting would be a 400 4.6 or 300 f4. The boats will be far away so im gonna need focal length with speed...i can post process crop if needed they r not gonna be picky with image quality Here is my gear--- (Thanks in advanceee)) :)


Rebel XT--70-200 2.8 (non is)---18-55 ( wouldnt need it)--- GITZO reporter tripod with GItzo ball head (this tripod is very sturdy and verryyy expensive should be fine for this type of shooting)

Well first it would be nice to know HOW far away you'll be. The 70-200 f/2.8 non-IS you have would probably work okay. I wouldn't go for something longer but much slower if you need speed. Also, you should get something with mode 2 IS (panning) for on the tripod motion panning. I use the EF 400 f/2.8 IS USM all the time at the beach here in Waikiki and LOVE it. It might cost you almost $100 to rent ($80 at the place here I rent from) but well worth it. It's a 12lb lens and sexy as hell! Now, if that's too long, the 300 f/2.8 is basically the same lens but just a little shorter (and slightly better image quality, but basically the same - GREAT). If you want to go less expensive yet, you could rent the 200 f/2 (one of my favorites) or the 135 f/2 (I LOVE that lens) but I don't know if that's too wide for you. I think distance is the first thing you need to think of. Plus... this is SUPER obvious but I'll state it anyhow: You can always crop but you can't always widen.... so if you're unsure of the focal length I'd go wider... if you're thinking 300-400 would work but not sure, I'd rent the 200 f/2... if you're thinking the 400 is just about right or maybe not QUITE far enough, I'd get the 300 2.8. Worst thing is getting TOO MUCH FOCAL LENGTH and then feeling stupid, right? haha... The XT is what, 10MP? 8MP? Maybe rent a 50D or something too?

You can rent a 400 2.8 for around 100 DOLARRS WHERE????? lol yeah the xt is slow but will probably work where do you rent from ? all i can find is 300 f4s for around 100 dollars... i need a 300 2.8 at least for this i already know thanks :)

Well where are you from? The place I rent from is LOCAL so there is no mail involved, make things much more affordable. I rent from www.hawaiicamera.com because I live in Waikiki/Honolulu. The 400mm f/2.8 is $80/day and the 300 2.8 is about half that! He even has a 600 f/4 :) To compare, he also has an EF 300mm f/4 L IS and it's only $16 a day.... he also has a thing where if you rent for 4 or 5 days you get it for 7! Anyone here also live in Hawaii? I'm thinking of starting my own lens rental business in the south of France when I move there in a month... we shall see :)


- Jordan Murphy


www.freshphotohawaii.com

oohhh mannn :( :( im from jersey lol i need to get it shipped unless i can find a local place maybe somewhere in a surround state anyone know one in the tri-state area?? its mad expensive shipped like 500 dollars for a week

Another idea to consider would be to use a "chase" boat. The idea here would be to shoot from this boat while the race boat is in motion. Any boat could serve this purpose - a fishing boat, recreational sport boat, jet ski...


I think this is a cool technique to consider, if you have the means (and/or budget) to execute it properly. I can image that a wide angle perspective (~18mm) from in front of the race boat would look very unique, combined with good panning. The possibilities are endless!



I don't shoot moving boats frequently, but this technique is frequently employed for commercial shoots of watercraft. Just check out any boat manufacturer's website.





Good luck and have fun!

thanks :) he owns a second boat i could do this for sure :) i probably will as it is more simple but alot of the shots will be from shore and a 300/400 mm lens will be required? If im gonna use my 70-200 with a converter(?) i could crop a bit ,,,but how do i shoot it? panning? What kind of auto focus?

Mode 2 should be panning.... I know on the 300 and 400 f/2.8s... oh here is a clip from this site:


The included Mode-2 IS is designed for panning. Use it for a subject moving in one direction - pan the camera with the subject. Good subjects for Mode-2 IS include a bicyclist or a vehicle. Blur the background with motion - leave the subject sharp with good depth of field.


I think you'd use AI Focus for that.

I'd suggest using AF-Servo to track focus and a shutter speed somewhere around the 1/160 mark, then adjust aperture and ISO to suit. That way you will get some nice motion blur in the background without using a slower shutter speedthat could make it difficult to get sharp shots.


Mode 2 (panning) IS is works really well and would definately make a difference too but I guess you'd have to hire a lens to get that.


Have fun mate, Ben.

Well the 70-200 f/2.8 L IS that he has should work fine in Mode 2. Ohhhh yeah he doesn't have the IS version... yeah you'll have to rent something then. yeah, good advice! Probably want to use Tv mode to get the shutter speed perfect and then have everything else set to accommodate.

I wouldn't think that IS would be that important for this type of shot. If the boats are moving fast then you're going to need a fast shutter speed to avoid any motion blur of the boat. Fast shutter speed would pretty much make IS not an issue. A FAST appeture would be more important IMO. 2.8 would probably be good, but 2.0 would be better!


Stephen

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Originally Posted by NFLD Stephen

I wouldn't think that IS would be that important for this type of shot. If the boats are moving fast then you're going to need a fast shutter speed to avoid any motion blur of the boat. Fast shutter speed would pretty much make IS not an issue. A FAST appeture would be more important IMO. 2.8 would probably be good, but 2.0 would be better!

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Yes and No...


IS will not stop motion blur as we all know so you're correct here. But it depends on what type of shot you are after. If you purely want to stop everything in the shot then sure you need high shutter speed.


However these shots can become a little monotonous after a while which I why I suggested a slower shutter speed and a lens with panning mode IS. This allows you to pan with the boat and give the shot a bit more of a dynamic feel by producing background motion blur while keeping the boat sharp. In this case, IS will definately be of benefit. This would work best side on to the boat.


Also, I'm assuming the boat is fairly large so you may have to stop down to get the whole thing in focus. In which case a wide aperture is unusable.


There's different ways to go about every shot and keeping things variable make for a shoot with a range of interesting images. So nobody's right or wrong I guess.

how about not using an is lens at all? would i be able to get away with it ? thanks all the help is good :)

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Originally Posted by mpphoto12

how about not using an is lens at all? would i be able to get away with it ? thanks all the help is good :)
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>

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Absolutely! The IS helps a lot (I use mode 2 IS on my 70-200mm f/4LIS all the time) but if you've got a steady hand or using your tripod then there's no reason why you can't get sharp shots.

Sorry, I don't have any advice for you about race boat photography, but I have one comment:

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Originally Posted by mpphoto12

Can go up to 200 mph.

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Whoa! I can't imaging going that fast on solid ground... let alone water. That's really neat. I'm sure your photos will come out great. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by NFLD Stephen

I wouldn't think that IS would be that important for this type of shot. If the boats are moving fast then you're going to need a fast shutter speed to avoid any motion blur of the boat. Fast shutter speed would pretty much make IS not an issue. A FAST appeture would be more important IMO. 2.8 would probably be good, but 2.0 would be better!


Stephen

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You're wrong here.Yes you could stop action, but think of this: the boat has to go 200mph. To get to that speed, the water level must be nearly flat I guess. So there isn't a lot going on. When the boat travels at such high speed and you manage to stop action, you're picture will be totally boring I think. There isn't much going on, because boats don't show a lot of emotion. For instance: look at motorrace pictures. That's the kind of pictures they want from him. Nice panned pictures where you can see the speed.





Now what he needs is a nice lens with or without IS. IS mode 2 is preferable because it only stabilizes for vertical movement. When you track the boat and pan your lens horizontally, the IS mode 2 will counter all the vertical movement. It isn't really necessary, but really comes in handy because you're mostly shooting at times lower then 1/200th. The max aperture of the lens is not really important.


The most important thing is...how close can you get? Remember close isn't always better with these type of photo's. When you're to close and you make such a photo, the angle between you and the boat (you move from left to right or otherwise) differs more then when you're standing further away. The higher the angle is, the less parts of the boat will be in focus.





Look at my following shot: shot at 17mm 1/100 iso 800 f18


http://www.fruityview.nl/rally.jpg


The only thing in focus is the nissanmirror really, my centerpoint.


When you've got the chance to be further away, the distance between you and the subject isn't really changed a lot due to the angle you make. That's why further away isn't really a problem with panning.


This was shot without IS by the way, but I only used 17mm


The following shot is taken at 109mm with 1/200 iso200 F8 also without IS and you notice there is more in focus, just because of the distance to your subject. You can also notice that 1/200 maybe was a little to fast here, because you can still identify the people on the background. The less you can identify, the more speed is shown.


http://www.fruityview.nl/cross.jpg


I hope it's all making a little bit of sense now. I forgot to mention I was like 5m away with both of these shots and I used my 70-200 F4L non-IS for it.


My recommendation is: yes get a little closer if you can, but not too close (they don't want anyone close on the water anyway probably)


And yes if you have the opportunity get a lens with IS mode 2. It really comes in handy. Especially with longer focal ranges. Else just use your tripod, that will work pretty well as well.


You could try out different settings during that day on other boats. Like different shutter-speeds, so when you need to photograph your friends boat, you're ready for it. Shutter-speed differs in various situations and with various lenses, but with panning they are mostly between 1/50 and 1/200 of a second.


Good luck! Hope you're pictures work out!

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Originally Posted by mpphoto12

im from jersey lol i need to get it shipped unless i can find a local place maybe somewhere in a surround state anyone know one in the tri-state area?? its mad expensive shipped like 500 dollars for a week

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Hi,

I'm from south jersey and although I've never used them Calumet Camera has a store in Philadelphia that you can rent all kinds of equipment from including every lens up to the 600L. They have day and week rates andif you pick it up Friday after 3pm you can have it for the whole weekend till mondaynoon for the single day rate! [url="http://www.calumetphoto.com/rental/digitalcameras]Here[/url] is the link to the rental page. They say "call" for the daily/weekly rates for the lenses 300mm and larger but if you download there 2008 rental catalog the 400 2.8 is $100 for a day although prices might have changed slightly since then but you can always call to see the current rental price. There are some stipulations of course like...
<span style="font-size: xx-small; font-family: HelveticaNeue-Condensed;"]<span style="font-size: xx-small; font-family: HelveticaNeue-Condensed;"]

"A deposit for the full-replacement cost of the equipment is required unless other arrangements are made in advance.We accept Visa, Mastercard, American Express, Optima and Discover cards. Sorry, we cannot accept Visa or Mastercard check/debit cards or overseas credit cards drawn on non-USA banks. A valid driver&rsquo;s license or, current passport is also required."

<span style="font-size: x-small;"]but I don't think thats unreasonable. Hope this helps and let me know how it works out because I've been wanting to rent from them for a while but haven't had a reason to yet.

Fred~

How far away and how big are your subjects? If it's first time shooting something like that it's better to get a zoom a 100-400 IS is a good choice. I would just turn off IS, it's useless in this case because the boats are going at 200 mph. Make sure you meter the boat, check your LCD and adjust accordingly. Let's just hope that you'll have lots of light :) :)

Nate...100-400 sounds like a great option yes, but why would you turn off IS? The 100-400 has IS mode 2...


To me it sounds like his friend wants the sort of photo that you make with panning. I never used IS mode 2, but it is especially made for those pictures. Then why turn it off?


Metering is correct and yes a lot of light is always pretty, but with this sort of photography you don't really need a lot of light.

thanks everyone there is alot of very helpful info here and i think it will help alot when it comes down to shooting it :) im thinking about renting either the 100-400 IS or the 300 f4 or 400 5.6? anything else is too expensive and i will be using a smaller aperature anyway s fast focus i think is primary between these choices. ANy final suggestions about the lens rental choice between these? or just keep my lens ? i will be pretty far away...well.... very very far away i think...400 5.6 on tripod is looking good now lol

maybe this is something for you:


http://digital-photography-school.com/mastering-panning-to-photograph-moving-subjects





or google "panning"


I would go for the 100-400 mainly because of it's versatility and IS mode 2. Your tripod will be an excellent IS mode 2 as well [;)]Your own 70-200 might do the trick, but I doubt it that you can be close enough to frame it nicely. You don't want to crop away 75% :P


Good luck! And maybe show us some results later on??[:D]

this is going to take place in the summer as soon as i get my results i will post them asap lol thanks for all the help :)

I turn it off because shooting fast action sport you need fast initial AF aquisition. With IS on it will slow down the initial AF aquisition. You may not notice this on high end bodies, but you will on the XT.

Alright Nate, thanks for the heads up!