HELP!!!! need advice from bif guys --swallows in flight --GOT ONE!!!!

help me.......i tried to get some shots of swallows in flight this evening....took over 30 shots of a group of them hunting mosquitos, and got 2 that are decent........not great......need advice from you bif guys.......brendan? where are you???[:D]


shot with my XSi, 100-400L, at f/11, 1/400s, iso500......wanted to keep the apature at f/11 to try and keep as much depth of field as possible for all the diving, swooping, jinking, and doublebacks these guys do......man, are they fast and hard to follow[:S], especially zoomed right out at 400mm


http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4725/img3216a.jpg


http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8199/img3217a.jpg

In my opinion swallow in flight is the hardest hardest thing to shoot, simply because the bird is just too small and moving so erratic. Keeping the bird in the viewfinder is hard already, getting the camera to autofocus on the bird is even harder. BTW for any bird in flight 1/400 is just too slow, let a lone swallow in flight.

Your ISO setting is probably okay at 500. I like generally to use mine at ISO 400. Your shutter speed is WAY too slow. If you want to have any chance of catching a relative sharp shot of your bird, you need to shoot at least at 1/1600 sec or faster. In bright sun shine, your aperature will be around F/6.3 to F/8 which is all you will get without jacking you ISO way up and start to lose IQ on your shot.


Trying to shoot small birds which are flying erratically will be extremely demanding on your AF. What you have on the XSi is probably not the fastest AF and it may get confused by locking onto the background. So to make things easier, try to take shots of small birds without any trees, grass, or other background that might cause your AF to focus away from your subject.

on an XSI I would imagine your AF is always going to be a little behind. Set your focus manually around where the birds keep flying (the mosquito's) set your camera on a tripod if you have one and shoot pictures as they fly by panning along the path they take.

thanks guys........i'll try next time to jack up my shutter speed to 1600, and i realize that the auto focus will prob always be slow when trying to track such a quick little bird, but i tried to compensate for that by leaving it in AI and trying to lead the swallows, which is hard, half the time, they have doubled back or jinked off in some other direction......i dont think using my tripod will help though, its a big field andthe swallowsare all over the place. unfortunatly, the mosquitos dont flock[:P] i was trying my 100-400L lens and its not bad to hand hold, and it gives me lots of reach.........i was also thinking of trying my 70-200f/4L (nonIS) with 1.4TC attached. which lens would be a better option? my 100-400 for the IS and reach, but slower focus speed, or my 70-200f/4 with TC, but no IS???


jim

Hey Jim,


f/11 isn't really necessary at 400mm for BIF. Small apertures like that (for the most part, at least) come into play in bird photography when shooting with really long lenses (600mm, 800mm) when DoF is tiny regardless of the small aperture. Shutter speed has to be at least 1/1000, with eagles you can usually get away with 1/800 but for anything faster you'll need a faster shutter.


Unless you're shooting the swallows from a nesting box or a birdfeeder where you know they'll be it's incredibly hard (read: impossible) to get a quality BIF shot. Like nate said, they are tiny and don't fly in a predictable path. I haven't seen a quality BIf shot of that sort of bird. Ever.


At fast shutter speeds IS is useless so if you prefer the focus of the 70-200 + TC and don't mind the EFL reduction I'd pick that combo. Just try not to frustrate yourself attempting to get a good shot of a songbird in flight. There are a select few who can take those shots (Alan Murphy comes to mind, but I don't think even he has a swallow in flight) and it might be (in my opinion) the hardest 'variety' of bird photography.


Good Luck!


brendan

GOT ONE........at least i think this is better [:D] took around 15 shots last night of a couple of the swallows burning around the field hunting, got a couple decent shots, and this shot i think is the best, let me know what you guys think, i'll put up the uncropped shot and the cropped shot. once again i used my 100-400L lens, handheld, with a shutter speed of 1/1000s, f/6.3, iso640. i am going to try my 70-200f/4L and 1.4TC combo today to see if i get a better keeper rate, but i am not at all disapointed in the fact i got a couple keepersout of 15 or so shots, especially on such a fast, unpredictable bird.......I'M HAPPY[:)][:P]


http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/7403/img3225t.jpg



http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/4802/img3225a.jpg


thanks for the help guys, and please let me know what you think of this shot, both uncropped and cropped


jim

Hi Jim -


Wow, much improvement on your second attempt! The cropped version looks really good! Yesterday, I was at the Chicago Botanic Gardens and saw birds like this flying everywhere and you are right - they are not easy to photograph in flight! Here's a very cropped version of one I caught but I'm not sure if it is a swallow, it was flying with them & just as erractic over the water catching mosquitos. It's not very good since I took the photo with my macro lens [:P], I left my 100-400mm at home this time!! [:(] I just couldn't watch all these birds and not try to get at least one!

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Denise

hi denise......nice shot with a macro lens [:P] which one do you have? its the 100f/2.8L right? it looks like a swallow to me, hard to tell if its a barn or tree swallow though. i dont think its a purple martin though, toolight on the belly.


jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lynx0069

which one do you have? its the 100f/2.8L right?

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Yes, it's the 100 f/2.8L IS. Not exactly a BIF lens but great for everything else I was photographing!

Denise

Great shot Denise! I like that the bird is flying into the frame with a full wing span.


Nicely done..., especially with that shorter lens!


So, lets see the Macro Garden Pictures.


Rich

dont mean to be petty.......but, richard, it is my thread, and denise's shot is a good shot, but if you are going to comment denise's, it would have been nice to comment mine as well.


jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lynx0069

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dont mean to be petty.......but, richard, it is my thread, and denise's shot is a good shot, but if you are going to comment denise's, it would have been nice to comment mine as well.


jim
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I do apologize myself for posting the photo ...I was basically just trying to converse with you and get your opinion on if you thought it was indeed a type of swallow.

Denise

thats ok denise........i dont mind others posting there shots, it gives us something to compare, its not your fault at all. and i'm not upset or anything, especially at you.......it's just that i started the thread to get advice from other bif photographers as to how i can improve my shots and technique, and i dont mind comments on others pictures, but if they are going to comment someone elses shots, please be kind and comment and/or critique mine as well..........thats all.


jim

Hi Jim,


You're absolutely correct. Thanks for asking... Somehow, I went to the latest post and I didn't realize that you posted "new" bird shots. I thought those were the same ones from the other day.


I like the action of the birds better on your first day; wings spread in the first one, and then wings back on the second one. Those shots look more dynamic to me, generating speed and motion, howeveryour first days attempts were slightly OOF with motion blur, but it seems that you have made the necessary adjustments in shutter speed and DOF that the posters here have suggested, so nicely done for that.


The new ones are way better, because they are clear and in focus, however this particular bird looks smaller and further away to me then the first days birds, so I would like to see more zoom, however that is easer said then done with such a small fast bird.


I like the cropped version much better without the distracting background, and the bird is flying right by the viewers eye with room left over in the frame, nicely done on that one.


I guess another goal of yours should be a few images with both wings in flight, again good luck with that one, especially since they are flying so low.


It's always best to use the fastest lens that you own in this situation. I think that the 70-200mm f/4L with 1.4X (98-280mm @ f5.6) will probably be similar to the100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L, but you should definitely give it a try ( I would probably give the edge to the 100mm-400MM Lens), afterall isn't that why we have all of these lenses to play with. You should bring both lenses and switch to see which one you like better.


Looking forward to the next shots...


Rich

One of the things I've learned from following Birds As Art's bulletins from Art Morris is:


Shots are best when the sun and the wind are at your back.


Birds usually take off and land into the wind. Having the sun come from the same angle as the wind means your subjects are better lit.


If the sun and wind are opposite, you're asking for challenges. That said, I haven't looked at your shots to see if I could tell the wind direction.

Hey Jim,


First, I agree with Peety3. Absolutely true.


Second, I like your 2nd attempt much more. It's sharper and you did much better to freeze the bird's motion. But eye/head detail is non-existent. The swallow is underexposed and the background is a bit overexposed. However, I don't think I could've done any better. If you could get one of these guys to nest in a nesting box you'd have a much easier time b/c you'd know where they'd come out of. But in any case a swallow in flight is incredibly hard to shoot.


brendan





PS try these tips

thanks guys......[:D].........the sun was over my right shoulder, it was around 6 in the evening when i took the shots, and there was a slight breeze comming out of the west, as i sat on a slight rise under the shade of a maple, facing south. and, brendan, what would the proper settings be to correct the exposure to bring out more detail in the head? i used DPP to process the shots from RAW, but i could not make any more detail pop out than what i acheived already. also today, i went to an old barn i know that has about fifty nesting barn swallows in it to try and get some shots with my 70-200f/4L and didnt get any shots i was happy with, just po'd a lot of swallows, lol.


jim

Hello,





You have some very good shots for your first attempts. :)


Swallows in flight are about as hard as it gets for BIF, only swifts, house martins, and finches are as challenging.





Looking at you photos the issue seems to be your chosen shutter speed. For these type of shots you really should be looking to try and get 1/1600 second.





I specialise in bird photography and have been trying for the last few months to try and capture one of these speedy flyers with my Canon 7D and EF 300mm f/4L IS USM with and without the Canon EF Extender 1.4x II and it is very difficult.


Here are a few examples I have managed this year.


[View:http://community.the-digital-picture...awaii/utility/http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/...0eb4b9e438.jpg]


[View:http://community.the-digital-picture...awaii/utility/http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/...db854091d5.jpg]


House martin:


[View:http://community.the-digital-picture...awaii/utility/http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4051/...8382b48852.jpg]


Swift:


[View:http://community.the-digital-picture...awaii/utility/http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/...e4d0abdbef.jpg]


None of the results are outstanding but not too shabby either.


I try and aim to shoot around 1/1600 sec, f/7.1, ISO400, AI Servo, AF point expansion or Centre point only.


If the weather is overcast and miserable I will just not bother trying.


I have been trying to capture swallows hunting over corn fields similar to what you are trying and my success rate is far lower due to the background confusing the AF system.
I would be tempted to try the prefocus method as mentioned by others.

Arrh cant get the photos hosted, cant remember the script coding on this site...

Don't script it - just paste the link into the Insert Media pop-up - two buttons to the left of the smiley icon (or if you prefer, the next 'active' button to the left). You can specify dimensions when you do that, if you like (max width of 800 pixels to display properly here).

Many thanks, after 10 minutes of using the search function I found someone else that had asked the same question :-)


I have fixed my original post ;-)