Canon Macro ringlite MR-14EX, advice needed!

Hey guys,





I've found a very good deal on the Canon MR-14EX(70% of new price) and lately I've been debating what to do with my macrophotography: upgrade my lens to an L-series macro lens (100mm) or upgrade my flash, because the 430EX flash isn't working so well on FF as it worked on my 50D with macro. Believe me I've tried everything possible.


So I've got some questions (since there's very little to find about the MR-14EX):


A - Is it wise to buy a ringflash? [:P] (also I don't have money for the expensive twinflash, nor am I a macro-tripod-shooter, just as info)


B - How do I test this second hand flash and what are the things to look out for? In other words...what shows the degradation of a flash?





Thanks in advance!


Jan


PS: Oh I should mention that I will probably buy it tomorrow or this weekend so I'm in a bit of a hurry [:P]

You are better off with the flash.


Optically, the differences between the EF 100/2.8 macro and the EF 100/2.8L macro IS are negligible. In fact, I would even say that the latter has more lateral CA than the former. The only real benefit is that the L has IS, but even this is of limited use at 1:1, with only about 1-1.5 stops advantage in practice. In my opinion, the IS really only helps in terms of keeping the viewfinder steady for composition and slightly more accurate focus placement. However, it does not help with respect to movement parallel to the optical axis. Yes, the L is weather-sealed, but I don't think this is terribly significant for you.


The ring flash, however, will help tremendously, since it is only through the addition of sufficient light that you will be able to attain shutter speeds fast enough to permit sharp photos at high magnification. I do strongly advise you to consider the twin flash, though; although significantly more expensive than the ring, it offers far more lighting flexibility not just in terms of position, but also in the use of modifiers. The ring flash was designed primarily for medical and dental applications.


Flash lamps last quite a long while. They don't really lose output power over their lifetime, AFAIK, but if the lamp fails it fails completely. It is more likely that an internal electronic component (e.g. capacitor or circuit) fails before the lamp itself does. And so in general, if it hasn't failed yet, you can't really know anything about the internal electronics without opening it up.

I'm quite happy with my ring flash. I didn't get the twinflash, and so far it hasn't been an issue. What I like the most is that you can get a shot that doesn't look like a flash was used at all. In macro photography, you can set the camera to manual and choose your own aperture and shutter speed, allowing you to hand hold the camera and still get a nice depth of field. Here's an example (photographed at the Calgary zoo):


Canon 5DII, 180mm macro, 1/125s @ f/16, ISO 200


[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.37.25/IMG_5F00_1399_2D00_1.jpg[/img]

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Huyer

I'm quite happy with my ring flash. I didn't get the twinflash, and so far it hasn't been an issue.

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I'll second that! [Y] I am very happy with my ring flash and I recommend going this route (especially with the deal you have found on one) before upgrading your lens.

Jonathan - very nice photo BTW!

Denise

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

Is it wise to buy a ringflash? (also I don't have money for the expensive twinflash

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I think it's a good option. Some will say that a ring flash provides 'flat' lighting that lacks dimension. That's true for the cheap off-brand ring flashes with a single tube. Since the MR-14EX has a pair of tubes, just set the ratio to 2:1 or 4:1 and you'll avoid that problem.


The MT-24EX twin-lite does offer more flexibility in lighting, sure. Thing is, even though the working distance of the 100mm macro seems short (ok, it is short!), at that distance the difference between the ring light and the twin light is minimized since the lights nearly merge to a single source. At really short working distances - meaning the MP-E 65mm - the twin light has a definite advantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

the 430EX flash isn't working so well on FF as it worked on my 50D with macro. Believe me I've tried everything possible.

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EVERYthing? [:P]


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4135/...6937031c_b.jpg


The sunflower was shot handheld (EOS 7D,EF 100mm f/2.8<span style="color: red;"]LMacro IS,1/60 s, f/13, ISO 400 with E-TTL flash metering and no post-processing), using the setup shown on the right: 430EX II with a Sto-Fen OmniBounce, mounted on aManfrotto 233B Flash Bracket with a GiottosMH1004 mini ball head and anOC-E3Off-Camera Shoe Cord.


It's a very flexible setup , and works great for handheld macro shooting with the 430EX II. I can position the flash head almost anywhere around the subject, including behind it for backlighting, if I want -the bracket extends to ~18"/45 cm. The bracket/ballhead/OC-E3 added up to ~US$140 (about half of that was the OC-E3 and there are much cheaper 3rd party options). As a bonus in terms of utility, it's also a nice setup for portraits (the 'usual' use for a flash bracket).
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Sweet setup you've got there John! Bet you'd get some interesting questions walking around with that.

Hooray I've bought the MR-14EX!!!![:D]


I'm sorry to respond so late. Yesterdaymorning I got a big needle in my arm from the doctors (bursitis) and it was way too warm to sit in my room to be honest so I've moved my pc downstairs now[;)] At this very moment it's 32 degrees celcius there [A]89.6 Fahrenheit [:P]


Anyway after reading your replies on my cellphone I decided to check out the flash and it really made me happy. It functions very nicely and it looks brand new. It just twists a lttile to easy, so I'll look for something to fix that. (don't mention glue please [:P])


So I'll show you some photos later on. When I do have better ones to show [;)] I must say I love the twin-flash reflection. I had it in the eye of a frog in the backyard and it's a lot less distracting than the square reflection of the 430EXII speedlight I used to use with macro's. Big plus for that! [Y]

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Originally Posted by wickerprints

Yes, the L is weather-sealed, but I don't think this is terribly significant for you.

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It was almost as important as IS for me. I love to go out even wen the weather is bad. I can enjoy those moments just as much as good weather. However I do think the flash is giving me much more joy than upgrading my lens. Anyway I'll see how I like it. Perhaps an upgrade will be done later, because I must say that the L-lens looks like it's better suited for other photography besides macro. So it might be used more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wickerprints

I do strongly advise you to consider the twin flash, though; although significantly more expensive than the ring, it offers far more lighting flexibility not just in terms of position, but also in the use of modifiers. The ring flash was designed primarily for medical and dental applications.

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I know but it's 350 euro vs 800 euro for the twin-flash....do the math [:P] And thinking I could get quite good results with only the 430EXII flash (at least I think so) the extra money was absolutely not worth it. But I did consider it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wickerprints

And so in general, if it hasn't failed yet, you can't really know anything about the internal electronics without opening it up.

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Thanks, this was helpful.



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Originally Posted by Jonathan Huyer

I'm quite happy with my ring flash. I didn't get the twinflash, and so far it hasn't been an issue. What I like the most is that you can get a shot that doesn't look like a flash was used at all. In macro photography, you can set the camera to manual and choose your own aperture and shutter speed, allowing you to hand hold the camera and still get a nice depth of field. Here's an example (photographed at the Calgary zoo):

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Awesome! Thanks a lot and thanks for the example, great shot. I thought...if it works well with a 180mm macro (further distances) it must also be working well with my 100mm. Thanks!



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddt0725

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Huyer

I'm quite happy with my ring flash. I didn't get the twinflash, and so far it hasn't been an issue.

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I'll second that![img]/emoticons/emotion-21.gif[/img] I am very happy with my ring flash and I recommend going this route (especially with the deal you have found on one) before upgrading your lens.

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<div>Thanks Denise and thanks for the PM [:D]</div>
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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

That's true for the cheap off-brand ring flashes with a single tube. Since the MR-14EX has a pair of tubes, just set the ratio to 2:1 or 4:1 and you'll avoid that problem.

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I will have to work out what ratio works best for me. I'm gonna do some testing when I have some time [:D]

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

the 430EX flash isn't working so well on FF as it worked on my 50D with macro. Believe me I've tried everything possible.

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EVERYthing?[img]/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

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Haha you got me! Well yea I tried pretty much everything possible for an attached flash [:P] but not something like this [;)]



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

It's a very flexible setup , and works great for handheld macro shooting with the 430EX II. I can position the flash head almost anywhere around the subject, including behind it for backlighting, if I want -the bracket extends to ~18"/45 cm. The bracket/ballhead/OC-E3 added up to ~US$140 (about half of that was the OC-E3 and there are much cheaper 3rd party options). As a bonus in terms of utility, it's also a nice setup for portraits (the 'usual' use for a flash bracket).

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That's a pretty sweet set-up. However I doubt it would work for me personally. I like to "hunt" bugs etc. I think such a set-up asks for too much adjustment and time, which I normally don't have a lot. Most bugs I try to shoot aren't too exited to get photographed and they don't sit still 9/10 times.


Thanks for the example and the advice!


Again thank you all,


Jan
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

Yesterdaymorning I got a big needle in my arm from the doctors (bursitis)

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Ouch! [:(]

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

I love to go out even when the weather is bad. I can enjoy those moments just as much as good weather.

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Me too. I'm glad I started with the L version of the 100mm macro - I've certainly used it in the rain. In my case, the L version was available when I first bought a macro lens, so it was a easier choice - upgrading would have been a tougher decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

I must say that the L-lens looks like it's better suited for other photography besides macro.

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I wouldn't say 'better suited' - it's very well-suited to macro and other types of shooting. We went on a family outing to the Massachusetts Horticultural Society's gardens, and since I wanted travel light, the only lens I took was the EF 100mm f/2.8<span style="color: red;"]LMacro IS. In addition to some great flower shots, I got some good handheld insect shots, and also some great portrait shots. It's really a wonderfully versatile lens!


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/...d878ff6f7b.jpg http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/...71d4eac7f2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

That's a pretty sweet set-up. However I doubt it would work for me personally. I like to "hunt" bugs etc.

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Yeah, some adjustment is involved, though I can pretty much leave it as shown and it does ok for 'bug hunting'. Still, the whole setup is a bit unwieldy - it was intended mainly for portraits. The dedicated macro flashes are still bulky and I'll probably pick up a ring light or twin light down the line.


Congrats on your purchase - enjoy your new flash!

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

Hooray I've bought the MR-14EX!!!![img]/emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img]

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Congrats, Jan!! [Y] I knew you would love it!! Lookin' forward to seeing some photos soon!

Denise

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

I love to go out even when the weather is bad. I can enjoy those moments just as much as good weather.

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Me too. I'm glad I started with the L version of the 100mm macro - I've certainly used it in the rain. In my case, the L version was available when I first bought a macro lens, so it was a easier choice - upgrading would have been a tougher decision.

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Yeah updating is a not an easy choice[:(]I will debate on it for quite a while I think... I think the flash will give me some positive reinforcement as well to keep the golden oldie [:D]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

We went on a family outing to the Massachusetts Horticultural Society's gardens, and since I wanted travel light, the only lens I took was the EF 100mm f/2.8<span style="color:red;"]LMacro IS. In addition to some great flower shots, I got some good handheld insect shots, and also some great portrait shots. It's really a wonderfully versatile lens!

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Nice shots! I like the butterfly picture, beautiful natural light. Although just a bit of fill-in flash would be better I think[:P] Great shot of the little one [:D]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

The dedicated macro flashes are still bulky and I'll probably pick up a ring light or twin light down the line.


Congrats on your purchase - enjoy your new flash!

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Haha well I will enjoy mine I think, thanks! I probably will go out this afternoon to try it. Hopefully there will be some living things around, it's very hot at the moment. 35celcius in shade [6] If I have something I'll post it [:D] Perhaps I can convince you for a ring or twinflash [8-|]



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Originally Posted by ddt0725

Congrats, Jan!![img]/emoticons/emotion-21.gif[/img] I knew you would love it!! Lookin' forward to seeing some photos soon!

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Thanks! I hope I get some show-able material this afternoon![;)]
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Hi Jan:





Care to share where you got such a great buy on the ringflash?





Thanks


Wayne


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Originally Posted by Iguide

Care to share where you got such a great buy on the ringflash?

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Sure mate! I bought it second hand. I searched an internet-forum where people buy and sell mostly second hand stuff. I believe you guys have such a thing and call it Craigslist? I'm not sure.


It was my first 2nd hand buy ever, but I'm very happy with it. Things like these are specific products, so often the people you buy it from know what it is and have been careful with it. Also the reason you don't see many of them offered.


I just happened to see it when I was looking how much my 100 macro could get me [:P]


Hope this answer was enough...


Jan

I was very happy with my MR-14EX until I came across a curious "feature". When I set it for E-TTL, the picture is fine. If I try to use it in Manual mode, there is a curious shadow in the top right corner which looks like an out-of-focus cord trailing through the view. The camera is an early Canon 5D. Is it the flash or the camera?


Peter

Hey Peter,


welcome!


If you would like to tell me the exact settings: Lens, camera, iso, aperture, focus distance, manual power and ratio. Then I will try it as well and see what comes up.


To be honest I haven't used my flash really much. Very very little to be honest. Mostly because the weather doesn't allow me to. And now it's getting autumn again and it's rainy and getting colder so we'll see if anything nice comes up this year. Else we just have to wait till next year [;)]


Jan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phph001

If I try to use it in Manual mode, there is a curious shadow in the top right corner which looks like an out-of-focus cord trailing through the view.

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This sounds a little like a flash-sync problem... does it happen only at very high shutter speeds?

I have also considered getting a ring-flash, but am a bit uncertain if it will do with my macro set-up. Since Sheiky showed me the FD to EOS adapter, I have enjoyed using the bellows with my FD-lens. Does anyone know (or have the knowledge to make an educated guess) on how a ring-flash will behave with a system that practically is without a detectable lens, and no information about aperture opening?


Another thing, does anyone have experience third-party ring flashes? I have a Metz flash that I am quite satisfied with, and which saved me about 100&euro; compared to the Canon alternative. Since I am a BP (budged photographer), I am always hunting for as high quality as possible for a reasonable price. Of course, if third-party components are of poor quality, or equally priced, I go for Canon.


Lars

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Originally Posted by Lars

Does anyone know (or have the knowledge to make an educated guess) on how a ring-flash will behave with a system that practically is without a detectable lens, and no information about aperture opening?

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With TTL metering, it shouldn't matter at all (you should be fine).

Lars, to be honest I have no clue what this Bellows thing you're talking about really is.


Here's what I think. If my lens would be 100mm fixed with an 1:1 fixed perspective, I could easily live without the ETTL. I would just manually set all my settings and go with it. Since at 1:1 and a narrower aperture you'll need so much light that ambient light doesn't really matter anymore. For that matter, the main light in your shot will be the flash, with perhaps a little of ambient lighting. Unless you would use a tripod or something.


Anyway, if you were to set all settings manually and you have fixed lens-settings I think a 3rd party ring flash will do just as fine.


That's what I think of it. I hope some of it makes any sense [:P]


Jan

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Originally Posted by Jon Ruyle

With TTL metering, it shouldn't matter at all (you should be fine).

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Do you think this will also work good at macro-distances? The third party ringflashes are mostly not calibrated for macro I think? I don't have great experience with that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheiky

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon Ruyle

With TTL metering, it shouldn't matter at all (you should be fine).

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Do you think this will also work good at macro-distances? The third party ringflashes are mostly not calibrated for macro I think? I don't have great experience with that.

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A nice thing about TTL is that no adjustment/calibration at macro distances is needed.

Hi Sheiky


A bellows is used to elongate the distance between the lens and the camera body. It looks like an accordeon, with the camera body on on side, and the lens on the other. That can give exceptional macro shots, but since the distance from the body is quite large when fully extended, a flash mounted on the body will not be sufficient. To increase the height of the flash, and soften the light, I tilted the flash and bounced on the built-in white "flap". The results on the first tests were quite OK.


I also plan to use this to digitalise my old slides.


I'd show you some pictures, but I can't get it to work right now [:(], perhaps some maintenance is going on.


Lars

Hey Lars,


thanks for explaining. It does make a lot of sense now you told me. I had search google and I saw pictures of bellows, but I didn't made a link [;)]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lars

To increase the height of the flash, and soften the light, I tilted the flash and bounced on the built-in white "flap". The results on the first tests were quite OK.

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I have also done this trick, however it does not work with all types of lighting and results differed too much to really use it this way. At least for me [;)]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lars

That can give exceptional macro shots, but since the distance from the body is quite large when fully extended, a flash mounted on the body will not be sufficient

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<div>I know this problem. Sometimes the flash power is not strong enough for these situations. You could use an E-TTL cord and somehow attach the flash closer to the lens(with a flash-bracket perhaps). The shot will probably also look better if the angle of the flash is different.</div>

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Originally Posted by Lars

I also plan to use this to digitalise my old slides.

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I hope you don't need to do too many slides [A]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lars

I'd show you some pictures, but I can't get it to work right now [img]/emoticons/emotion-6.gif[/img], perhaps some maintenance is going on.

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Yes for some reason the posting of pictures doesn't work properly yet. At least by using the storage space here. I'll wait for the shots. I've got time [;)]


Jan

Since the storage problem is fixed, I try to show some pictures again.


Here is my bellows for those that are curious.


[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.39.80/Herfindal_2D00_05.jpg[/img]





Then a shot I took recently. The shallow DOF makes it a bit abstract, but I like it. I used a camera-mounted flash, but it turned out quite OK. I have enhanced the colours quite a bit, but otherwise no post-processing (sharpening etc).


[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.39.80/Herfindal_2D00_06.jpg[/img]


I am eager to test the system more, but with a new baby in the house (ten days ago), some things become more important than macro photography. On the plus side, I have now another person to practice portrait photography [:P].

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Originally Posted by Lars

but with a new baby in the house (ten days ago), some things become more important than macro photography.

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Wonderful.


But... can't you take macro pictures of the baby?

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Originally Posted by Jon Ruyle

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Originally Posted by Lars

but with a new baby in the house (ten days ago), some things become more important than macro photography.

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Wonderful.


But... can't you take macro pictures of the baby?

Maybe he's referring to sleep (when he can) as being more important than macro photography even of the baby!

Congrats on the new baby! Lookin' forward to seeing those baby pics!

Denise






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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lars

Here is my bellows for those that are curious.

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That looks pretty cool [Y]


Your shot is indeed quite abstract, but I like it.


Anyway congratulations with the baby! Hope you catch some sleep hehe [;)]


Well I finally had some time (and the weather was dry for once) to use my ringflash. At least I thought so...since when I came to the location it started raining pretty bad so I had to wait for like 30m under a tree until it got a little better. Here are some results, hope to shoot some more soon, since most of the bugs have already crawled back in their tunnels etc [:(] Unfortunately this wasn't the best summer for macro-photography...


http://www.actieinbeeld.nl/tdp/macro(1).jpg


100mm f5.6 ISO-400 1/100


http://www.actieinbeeld.nl/tdp/macro(2).jpg


100mm f10 ISO-800 1/100


http://www.actieinbeeld.nl/tdp/macro(3).jpg


100mm f5.6 ISO-800 1/100


Well it's still hard to determine the right settings, at least I think so. Also the ratio between the left and right is something I must learn better. The bright part: With just an on camera flash I would have never been able to do the last shot this way. The shielded part would have been flashed away by a single flash. I love how it looks now. There has been no post-processing, so I guess I can make something better out of them if I had some more time [;)]

Thanks for the kind words, I feel that I constantly get to little sleep. But I guess I will adapt, like I did with the first one.


As for macro photography, the autumn is getting quite close, and the bugs disappear. I guess I will have to wait until next summer before I can start bug hunting. I really like your first shot, Sheiky. The line from left to right that leads the eye to the sharp fly is a very nice composition (at least in my eyes), and the background and foreground blur is very soft and nice.


I consider getting a ring-flash, and see that there are some with two lamps, and some with only one. Sigma has one with two lamps, where you can choose to use only one. Has anyone experience with this? Any suggestions? I have to take the price into consideration, but quality is of course most important. My options would be Metz or Sigma if I cannot get my hands on a second-hand Canon.