Computer performance should not cost more than our Cameras!

After
reading some of the forums tonight, I have decided to write this in
response/frustrations that we have all had with our computers and wanting a
faster one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. After reading the post" Computers
arghhhhh.. 32 or 64, HDR arghh... by Steve U." It just pushed me over the
edge. And I feel for you Steve! This ones for you.


I have and for almost 12 years build and maintained my own
computers. And for those of you who are
feeling adventurous, there is a wonderfully long story, full of misspellings,
lousy sentence structure, horrible punctuation, and weird terms. If you so
dare, and are brave enough to read; my respects for having the patients, and my
hat is off to you!


It goes a little something like this.





Back when I was 13, Dell was all that and a
bag of chips; so I had to get a Dell. 2 years of saving, scraping, and out-right
selling of some of my most prized basketball cards, I came up with 1600 dollars
that I needed for that dell. And when I
got it I was completely disappointed. I was pissed. the computer I had just
bought wouldn't even play half of the games I wanted due to the lack of ram,
and the slow speed. To top it all off, the motherboard didn't allow for better
ram upgrades either. And all this came about after I was told by the guy at
dell "this is exactly what you will need to play that game". So here I was with
a 1600 dollar piece of junk. Then I find out from my brother's friend that he
builds his own computers for like 300% less. So he asked to see what I paid
1600 dollars for. So I bring the computer over to him and within 20 min, he had
specked it all out at for around 600 dollars. Needless to say he had a good
laugh, and I wanted to cry. It was still under its 30 day return policy so I
sent it back. I then proceeded to give the 1600 bucks to my brother's roommate
who built me a 1500 kick-butt, game-stomping, frag-blasting, friend-envy piece
of awesomeness. He only charged me 100 bucks to put it all together. I then
witnessed what looked like open heart surgery on Cp3o, and didn't understand
one bit of what I was seeing. I was extreamly happy, and could not wait to go
slay all my friends. So thus I had what we called "PC Gamer Envy Glory" my
computer rocked, and everyone and their kill-to-death ratios knew it.





Times
changed, I got older (well a little bit anyway; still the same size), and so
did my interests. I became obsessed with Photoshop and Bryce 3D. I wanted to
render like the pros. So everyone told me, "well get a Mac they are designed to
do that stuff. " So I looked into them; and then I looked OUT of them. After
seeing Mac's prices for their computers, I learned very quickly that I wasn't
going to make a rendering farm on 3 bucks a week. After what my brother's friend did with my
1600 bucks, I knew there had to be even more. So I did what all of us do when
we want to learn about something... I consulted the all mighty Internet, and
searched and read my brains out on forums; (56k modems were the bomb.) And
decided that my computer was awesome but I wanted to build an even better one.
One that had even more slots for hard drives, and rams, and mega-giggly-bytes
(heck I had no idea what that stuff was called back then.) And With in 2 weeks I sold that computer
saved money for a new one, bought the parts online and proceeded to put it
together. Not really knowing what I was doing, other than my countless hours on
the Internet and some decent forums; I managed to do it. That computer is still
running to this day. I gave it to my roommate 9 years later, and we link our
computers together and game on it. It has gone through a few upgrades, a little
better processor, some more ram, bigger hard drive, and a new video card. Total
upgrade price 270 dollars. I replaced them not because the parts died, but because
they were out-dated. Sure It's not the best computer in the world by today's
standards, but it STILL WORKS, and it can STILL BE UPGRADED


Here
is my current system I'm using for my photography business-





MS Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
120.00


CPU


AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4ghz
165.99


Deneb 45nm Technology


RAM


12.0GB Dual-Channel DDR3 1800 @
901MHz (per channel) (9-9-9-24)


So thats 1802MHz per stick
239.99


Motherboard


ASUSTeK Computer INC. Crosshair III
Formula (AM3) 209.99


Graphics


SAMSUNG @ 1920x1080


512MB GeForce 9800 GTX/9800 GTX+
(nVidia) 110.99


Hard
Drives


977GB Western Digital WDC
WD1001FALS-00J7B1
79.99


977GB Western Digital WDC
WD1001FALS-00J7B1 79.99


147GB Western Digital WDC
WD1500ADFD-00NLR4 (raptor 10,00rpm)
109.99


Optical
Drives


LITE-ON DVDRW LH-20A1S ATA
Device
19.99


Audio


SoundMAX Integrated Digital HD
Audio (built in to mother board)


Case


COOLER MASTER RC-692-KKN2 CM690 II 79.99


Power
Supply


Thermaltake Black Widow 850W ATX 12V
v2.3, Certified 80 PLUS 82.99


Monitor


ASUS VW266H Black 25.5" 2ms(GTG)
HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor 289.99





Plus
59.99 for 3day ups shipping





Grand
Total 1649.99 Not having to take out a seconded
mortgage ......Priceless


Also,
this computer has been upgraded several times over the past 2 years.





dual core to quad core 165.99


added
2 terabyte hard drives 159.98


added
4 more gigs of memory
79.99


total: 405.97





Yes
Macs run amazing Excuse me let me correct myself. Mac OS is amazing. But try and put this computer
together on Mac's site for 1600 dollars and all kiss your feet, and blow
bubbles in your chocolate milk for you.


I came up with around $5,300.00..... I can't afford that....
I'm going to buy new camera lesn, and a new camera.... and some more camera
lenses before I drop 5 G's on a computer just to process those images. I'm
Tri-Booting Mac OS X Snow Leopard, windows 7 pro, and windows XP;paid for all 3
of the OS's retail. Also all of my hardware has either a 3 year warranty, or
lifetime warranty. Apple care is great until it runs out, and you can't re-up
it on existing hardware, nor can you replace or upgrade your Mac parts for
cheap. My buddy just dropped 5600.00 on a new Mac pro, and wanted to have a
little competition to see whose was faster. And my computer in windows 7 64bit,
imports, loads, renders filters/ pictures and exports in Photoshop CS4 and
lightroom3.2 faster by minuets. And when we do bench marks in leopard, I just
smoke his butt. If Mac would lower their prices by about 350%, I would love to
buy a Mac. Now don't get me wrong, Mac's Operating system is amazing, their
hardware in my opinion is out of this world hilariously overpriced for what
they are actually putting in. I have taken apart many Macs, and looked up their
part numbers. And they mark up their stuff anywhere from 200%-900% and that's not
a lie. Don't believe me? Google it. For those of you who can afford a Mac;
Awesome, Great! But for me just because they say its amazing with 2x this and
5x that doesn't mean it is.



All of the hype, high prices and horribly substandard computer parts are
what drove me to learn how to build my own computers. And I can tell you its
far easier and painless these days to learn how to put your own computer
together than it is to drop 5000grand on a system that you have to take to a
store to get fixed/upgraded and pay outrageous prices for someone to tell you
that the ding-dong at the brand name computer store was an idiot, and sold you
the wrong thing.


So then you
ask, well what the heck am I supposed to do? Well I can tell you computers have
come a long way and so has the business. You can do a simple search on Google
for companies that build custom computers that are built for gaming, for really
good prices. Little know fact that if you build a gaming rig, you have just
built a kick-butt Photoshop/video/audio production machine. Because the
hardcore gaming / modders are always 10 steps ahead of the average consumer /prosumer/
name brand Computer Company. We want everything to run as fast as possible. We
want to get the highest frame rates on our games with everything set to max;
while listening to music, burning dvds,
running benchmark tests and doing our taxes all at once. We are cooling everything
with water and liquid nitrogen, because we want to achieve warp speed with our CPU's
and send Captain Kirk and Spock a message saying, "TADDA LOOK WHAT I DID". I
decided that I would rather spend that money on something a little more
productive and rewarding- Photography.


Sorry
this has been such a long rant / sermon, but I would imagine there are a few of
you out there that would like a really good system to do all your photo editing,
and do it blazingly fast and not have to take out a 2^nd mortgage to
do so. And rather than spend 5 grand on
a computer, would like to have some money left over to spend on your camera and
lens system. So I'm going to list a few links of companies that make custom
gaming rigs that will destroy any photo-shopping, Lightroom-ing Raw-processing,
HDR-ing you throw at it.


www.digitalstormonline.com


www.cyberpowerpc.com


And if your hardcore and want to learn how to do it your self?



www.tomshardware.com
and get all your parts at www.newegg.com








And yes the pre-built rigs are going to be a little more
than what you can build your own for, but they are not near as ridiculous as
certain "other" companies. And they use High-end aftermarket parts
that can be upgraded/replaced for cheap through sites like newegg.com. And they
10 times higher quality than the garbage that name brand computer companies swindle
you into buying. They also include extended warranties like the other
companies, if that's what you need. They also give you gaming cases which have
extremely good airflow, keeping everything cool.


Number
one reason computer hardware fails, is due to the over heating of the internal parts.
Huge corporations/computer companies are trying to pinch every penny so they
can make the biggest profit. They will only ever use the bare minimum that's
required of them to meet what that spec sheet says on your order form. They
don't give you extra cooling; they design these machines to break on purpose.
So you will go and buy another one in 2 years; if that. I have been in the
computer repair business officially for 8 years now. And the only reason I was
able to do so, was due to my frustration I had as a 13 year old trying to play
the latest game and only making 3 bucks a week. I've built over 300 systems,
repaired more than I want to remember of every make model and shape you can
think of. And I have learned how absolutely sleazy the computer industry is
when it comes to selling you something that's only going to last 2 years
because they design it to overheat and die. I'm sorry; but that's GARBAGE.
Everyone deserves to process render and photos with out having to spend their
kid's college tuition fund. Photography is an expensive hobby, however much
more rewarding in my opinion.





Sorry this was so long but it pains me to read so many
forums with this being the core problem to "- many a photographer's processing dismay."
I was lucky; I got into computers early and before photography. But it's the
other way around. Now I'm the one learning from you guys how to take pictures.
And I have to say that your info on this forum has been priceless and amazing.
So I'm extending my knowledge of computers as a way of saying thank you for all
your help. This forum and all of the gracious photographers who have
contributed to it, have landed me 4 weddings (3 of which haven't happened yet)
2 portrait sessions, and 1 artist/ album photo shoot. And I have made over
1500.00 bucks doing something I absolutely love. So feel free to email me your
questions about system specs, and or problems. I owe you guys! Sorry about all
my Mac hating, thanks for reading





Running lightroom 3.2 64bit


Adobe Photoshop CS4 (64bit)


(And I still have time for the occasional fragging of some
newbs)

Nice rant, hope it doesn

Thomas, Thanks, I enjoyed the read, and agree with you about the do-it-yourself/re-build info. The only thing i know about Mac is what I read in thier specs and that they are expensive, but I can't honestly speak about thier performance because I have never owned or operated one. I have been building my own since my first PC-XTand have ended up with relatively fast, inexpensive machines. I current;y own a 5 year old dell, and it has worked fine--but its time to build my own again. Thanks for the inspiration.


Bob

When I bought my first apple last year and brought it home and plugged it in, it worked. When I bought my I phone, wifes I pad, I TV, and wifes laptop we plugged them in, they synced and they all worked. No fuss, no fight and now if I am at my TV, in the car or wherever all my stuff is synced together and I can watch Family Guy wherever I am at. I have PC

If I may add one comment: If you are not up for speccing out your own computer and building it from scratch, there is also a level II way of doing it. (remember those plastic models that had level I level II and level III for difficulty? Speccing and buying parts individually would be level III, macs or dells level I) tigerdirect.com sells barebones kits that usually come with motherboard, processor, ram, hard drive and case. These are incredibly reasonable, and you don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Fleming

If I may add one comment: If you are not up for speccing out your own computer and building it from scratch, there is also a level II way of doing it. (remember those plastic models that had level I level II and level III for difficulty? Speccing and buying parts individually would be level III, macs or dells level I) tigerdirect.com sells barebones kits that usually come with motherboard, processor, ram, hard drive and case. These are incredibly reasonable, and you don't have to worry about interoperability because they have worried about that for you. I think I am about to drop some cash on an i3 barebones kit from them.

---

Dan


Your post kind of highlights one of the issues. Level I, II and III. Alot of people are Level I and just want a computer that works. They go to the sales geek and he checks the systeme requirments of there software and compares it to a computer that exceeds the requirements and says this is what you want. They get it home and it works but is darn slow.


I went to tigersoft's website, and really if someone looks at this computer and they are level 1 will they really know what this is telling them (maybe, maybe not):


<span class="prodspecs"]<span style="color: #0000ff;"]Intel Core i7 4GHZ Overclocked Barebone PC - EVGA P55 FTW SLI Motherboard, Intel Core i7-875K Processor, 4GB DDR3 RAM , Cooler Master HAF 922 Chassis, Thermaltake 850W PSU, Asetek Liquid Cooling


<span class="prodspecs"]So if your a level I guy and clueless, and your options are Dell or Apple, who do you go with. Of course Dell is cheaper, or is it? I have a $2000 Dell laptop sitting on my desk at work, and I can tell you right now that it is no where close to my sons Mac Pro Notebook he paid $2500 for. Add another $300 or soto the Dell maybe, but then where is the cost savings of using Dell.


<span class="prodspecs"]Alot of people are level I, but if the level I buyer is not willing to invest the time in researching what is what, and what works best, then they are at the mercy of the Custom Box builder they go to. And the Box Builder may know what he is doing, or he may not and you end up a slow PC just like you bought one of the name brand manufactures.


<span class="prodspecs"]

Thanks for sharing, Thomas. Informative post.

Amazing how these posts about computers comes after I have spent two days of frustration dealing with my own computer! My PC is only 4 yrs old but I guess in computer years that is more like 50 yrs. old! I am using Vista, which I know is a whole problem in itself!


I know nothing about adding memory or additional disk space. All I pretty much know is how to turn it on, add programs (which I

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddt0725

I am planning on cleaning my computer up ....uninstalling programs I don't use much, run "Crap Cleaner", defragment and anything else I can think of. Then I am going to have an engineer at the office install more internal hard drive and maybe switch out from Vista to Windows 7.


Anyone know if this will solve the problem!?


Denise

---

Hey Denise!


Computer problems are frustrating, especially when the computer can't keep up. I am currently running a 7 year old Dell desktop, which I have upgraded and modded a few times to keep it running. I tried stitching together 4 pictures in Photoshop and it took hours to do anything, so I feel your pain. Since I bought that computer I have become more of a computer geek, so I'll be building my next one. (yay.) That being said let me address your proposed solutions.


1) Adding more hard drive space won't improve the performance of your computer any. It will give you more space to store the 18mp photos coming out of your 7D. As long as your engineer coworker has the computer open you might ask her/him to get some RAM for you and upgrade that. That is probably going to be the most-bang-for-your-buck upgrade you can do to your computer. I would expect it to cost $80-150 for adequate ram, given the age of your computer.


2) uninstalling programs, running crap cleaner, defragmenting, etc are all good steps to do, and they will net you some performance increase. Depending on how much you have installed, how full your hard drives are etc you will get different performance boosts. Of those the biggest boost you will get is shutting down the number of programs that start as your computer turns on and sit in the background not helping you. Doing that is a little more advanced, so if you aren't comfortable going in and messing with that kind of thing, you might have the engineer also look at that.


3) If you decide to install Windows 7 then all the items discussed in (2) are not necessary. Installing windows 7 gets rid of all your previously installed program and over-writes your entire hard drive, so you lose all your information. ***COMMUNITY SERVICE STATEMENT: Backup, backup, backup before doing ANYTHING on your computer. Make sure all your pictures, videos, music, important information and documents are stored in one or two different places other than this computer. You wouldn't believe how many times I, who should know what I am doing, kick myself when I am reinstalling because I realize I didn't back up a set of pictures or assignments, etc. END COMMUNITY SERVICE STATEMENT*** I would recommend moving from Vista to Windows 7 (I say that though I still use XP). Vista consumes huge amounts of processing power and leaves less for your programs to run. Windows 7 is more resource efficient, possibly even more so than windows XP.





That's my $0.02.


Hope it helps.


Dan

for those that can afford a mac, like i said... Thats great. seriously, they are good systems for that reason alone amongst many other reasons. And I understand that not everyone has the time, and i mean "the time" it takes to learn how to use build/troubleshoot/install their own computer. I Own an Iphone for a few reasons. It only cost me 99 bucks for the hardware. It works waaaay better than any other phone(not so much with some of the droids now.) Ya im tied to at&amp;t, but if the phone had cost me 600 bucks; I would have not done it. I wish mac would do this with all of there products to a point, and or offer discounts on older models a few years back, consistently. But yes I agree with, hey just get a mac statement. Like my friend who paid 5600 for his mac. Ive tried to show him how to build his own, but its just not something he understands well. He does produce audio and video like a very well, and puts out some amazing stuff.

Thank you SO MUCH for the info, Dan!


The issue with my last computer was programs running in the background at startup! I have absolutely no clue how to "see" what programs these are on this computer. I can't even find where to defragment with Vista! It's not in the control panel.


I am putting adding more RAM on the list of needs and am off to talk with my computer geek coworker now and showing him your response.


So much for any lens or camerapurchases anytime soon until I get this all squared away just in case a new computer ends up being on the list! [:'(]

Thank you again!

Denise

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddt0725

I am planning on cleaning my computer up ....uninstalling programs I don't use much, run "Crap Cleaner", defragment and anything else I can think of. Then I am going to have an engineer at the office install more internal hard drive and maybe switch out from Vista to Windows 7.

---

Denise


Its like Dan told you, no need to clean if your going to load up windows 7. Adding Ram might help with speed, add as much as you can afford, go with 64bit windows 7 if your using Photoshop for sure.


And...most importantly...backup all your stuff before you do it on an external hard drive.


Finaly use some type of anti virus protection on your new system.

To Dan, thanks for the info, i was in the processes of writing something similar, but you answered it for me.


and for deniseThe biggest thing that you need to do in CCleaner, is Tools&gt;Startup, and turn those tasks off! now i know every computer is different, but, im going to throw out a list of tasks that don't need to be running. and if you are not sure what some of them are. download Glary utilities. It has a start up program manager just like ccleaner, except you can right click on the task and there is am option to "search Google." Its a free program as well.


quicktime task


google updater


any toolbars/ updater


any hp monitor, updating,


adobe/acrobat speed launchers


java, updater


flash updater


Leave Itunes Helper if you have anything that syncs with itunes(wont sync if you turn that one off)


divix app


yahoo


google earth


hp care


hp customer.





here is a Wonderful! link with a huge list


http://krick.3feetunder.com/startup/list.html


if anyone would like to add to the list be my guest.

After doing graphic design for 10+ years, I will tell you the extra $$ for a Mac and the simplicity reliability and "elegance" are more than worth it.


I have worked on a PC while employed by a very budget conscience person. The simplest things such as the keyboard layout are not even user friendly. To someone who use and depend on key strokes to speed up there processes this IS a big thing. I started experiencing severe pain in my left wrist trying to use the control key with my pinky in conjunction with other keys. With a Mac you use the thumb on the command key and it pivots with ease. If you are completely happy searching through drop down menus and not concerned about carpal tunnel or have no need to speed up processes the Mac may not be worth the extra $$.


The interface will save you hundreds of hours a year, from drag and drop from finder to apps to simple finder function custom-ability for just about everything. Also the 64 bit version of Snow Leopard OS 10.6 cost me $30. I think Windows will cost a little more than that.


Let

I really don't understand how your friend could have spent $5600 for his MacPro. I've lost track of how many Macs I've bought over the years, and I've never spent more than $2800 on one. Based on what I see on Apple's site, if you built a $5600 Mac to compare to the one you built, you certainly weren't comparing apples-to-apples (no pun intended). I realize you can start at a base of $4999, but that's for a 12-core monster. Your computer certainly doesn't have 12-cores. The $2499 system is much closer to the one you built, inferior in some ways but superior in others. With a little work on NewEgg and Amazon I could probably add the RAM and hard drives for around $600. This would bring the total to about $3100, which considering it was a pre-built system isn't a bad comparison.


A few notes to the above:


When comparing buying the parts yourself and putting it together vs. a pre-built machine, of course the pre-built machine is going to be much more expensive. A more fair comparison would be a Dell vs. Apple machine as some have pointed out. You pointed out yourself that your $1600 Dell was worth about $600. In the same manner, a $3000 Apple is probably worth about $1000 in parts. I'm not naive, in the Dell vs. Apple comparison, I'm sure the Apple will be the more expensive of the two, and that's the price you pay for quality in other areas. As HDNitehawk said, many of us buy L lenses for a little better image quality. I buy Macs for a little better computer.


Also, I agree Apple usually overcharges for some upgrades, such as RAM or hard drives. I've only once added RAM to my machine before clicking order. I usually buy it from NewEgg instead of Apple since it's the same stuff and it costs a lot less on NewEgg. I've got 4 hard drives in my MacPro now, all ordered from NewEgg or Amazon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keith B

...I think you will find the Mac to be quite a bargain in the long run.

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I know I've used this example before, but in the 4.5 years I've had my current my Mac laptop (also bought with the top of the line processor of the day), I've also been using a Windows laptop provided by my employer. In fact, I am on mysixthwork-provided laptop in the same 4.5 years I've had my current Mac laptop - of the previous 5 Windows machines (a Compaq, 3 HP's, and 2 Lenovos), one was end-of-lifed and the other fourjust up-and-died (hard drives, CPUs, etc.). Of those 6, only the current Lenovo has a faster processor than my Mac (and despite that, my Mac performs equivalent tasks in equivalent software faster than the PC).


Even with corporate volume discounts, my employer spent a whole lot more money on PC laptops for me than I did on my Mac, and that's just counting the product dollars, not the productivity dollars.

Thomas -


Thank you VERY, VERY much for the info and the provided link! I have my work cut out for me tonight to start the emergency surgery process on my computer!


I remember when I had Windows Me seeing lots of things listed under startup that I don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trowski

I really don't understand how your friend could have spent $5600 for his MacPro.

---

My computer is, 8 core with 16gb of Ram, add 3 hard drives and a 27" moniter and your at $5600. Now not only do I have a Mac I can process videos with, put windows on it and I have the best of both worlds. So $5600 is very possible, but the machine the OP described as custom built is no where close to this class of machine as this Apple. Its an unfair comparison to overstate the case. And a AMD processor...Bahhh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

I know I've used this example before, but in the 4.5 years I've had my current my Mac laptop (also bought with the top of the line processor of the day), I've also been using a Windows laptop provided by my employer. In fact, I am on mysixthwork-provided laptop in the same 4.5 years I've had my current Mac laptop - of the previous 5 Windows machines (a Compaq, 3 HP's, and 2 Lenovos), one was end-of-lifed and the other fourjust up-and-died (hard drives, CPUs, etc.). Of those 6, only the current Lenovo has a faster processor than my Mac (and despite that, my Mac performs equivalent tasks in equivalent software faster than the PC).


Even with corporate volume discounts, my employer spent a whole lot more money on PC laptops for me than I did on my Mac, and that's just counting the product dollars, not the productivity dollars.

---

My first work computer was a 286..my first experince with windows was when I bought a used computer with the first version of windows on it. I brought it home and spent three days getting virus off it. This was in the olden days when we didn't get virus off the web, we got them from infected floppy disks (ah the improvements hackers have made). So describes what would become the norm for the next (almost) 20 years.


Your post has described my (almost) 20 years of working with windows and PC's...imagine my suprise when I brought my first Mac home


Unfortunatly though....is that Mac will not run all of the programs I need at work. But it will most.

@HDNitehawk: I guess I mis-spoke. I can see spending $5600 on a MacPro, I was just confused at how his friend could have spent so much and had an inferior system to the one Thomas built. If you buy the RAM, hard drives, and monitor from Apple, that definitely adds to the cost.


On another note, my MacPro is now over 4 years old (bought in Sept 2006) and still going strong. It's a dual-processor dual-core 2.66GHz Xeon. I upgraded it to 8GB of RAM, with 500GB, 2x 1TB, and 2TB hard drives. You would still have to spend quite a bit of money to match its performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trowski

<div id="ctl00_ctl00_content_content_ctl00_fragment_121 6_ctl01_ctl00_PostForm__QuoteText"]


@HDNitehawk: I guess I mis-spoke. I can see spending $5600 on a MacPro, I was just confused at how his friend could have spent so much and had an inferior system to the one Thomas built. If you buy the RAM, hard drives, and monitor from Apple, that definitely adds to the cost.


On another note, my MacPro is now over 4 years old (bought in Sept 2006) and still going strong. It's a dual-processor dual-core 2.66GHz Xeon. I upgraded it to 8GB of RAM, with 500GB, 2x 1TB, and 2TB hard drives. You would still have to spend quite a bit of money to match its performance.
</div>

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Where apple gets you, with your Mac Pro is the cost of upgrading the older machine gets real expensive. But I have been extremly impressed with mine.


Also...I have a 4 year old Dell with a really fast processor. It was custom speced and ordered from Dell and cost about $2200 four years ago. I have had to wipe windows off three diffrent times because of bugs and problems. Its been worked on occasionaly. Replaced the video card when it went out....and maybe added some RAM to get it up to 4 gb or so. Want to trade for your Mac Pro [:P]

I would be surprised if anyone took the position that Apple is comparable on cost for similar hardware. Every time I've looked, including just now, it's at least 30% more expensive, often over 100%. That's true for everything from laptops to computers to phones:


www.dell.com/.../apple-comparison


What's worse is that unlike everyone else, Apple keeps their prices fixed for a long time, so if you buy right before new prices come out, you get boned real bad.


The only sensible position is that the initial cost premium is offset by other advantages, such as better software, service, elegance, QA, TCO, etc.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

<div sizset="41" sizcache="18" id="ctl00_ctl00_content_content_ctl00_fragment_121 6_ctl01_ctl00_PostForm__QuoteText"]


I would be surprised if anyone took the position that Apple is comparable on cost for similar hardware. Every time I've looked, including just now, it's at least 30% more expensive, often over 100%. That's true for everything from laptops to computers to phones:
<p sizset="41" sizcache="18"]www.dell.com/.../apple-comparison


What's worse is that unlike everyone else, Apple keeps their prices fixed for a long time, so if you buy right before new prices come out, you get boned real bad.


The only sensible position is that the initial cost premium is offset by other advantages, such as better software, service, elegance, QA, TCO, etc.
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Daniel...what you said is dead on.


And the link you posted, just like all my Dell customer support experiences. Its just not there.

Good one. [:D] Fixed now.

It ain

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Originally Posted by Keith B

<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="content-type" />
Plus aluminum cost a little more than plastic and does more than look good.

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You can get non-Apple computers in aluminum too, and they're still cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Good one. [img]/emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img] Fixed now.

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[:)] $600 diffrence


Let me tell you about my last two computer purchases Dell Vs Appple see if its worth it


I bought my last two Apple Computers, brought them home pluged them in and they worked. Decided to get a bigger monitor, bought one brought it home and it worked.


Now for the Dell


At the same time bought a Dell laptop for about $2000 better than the one they listed.


It arrived, and was bugged would not work. Spent 4 hours on the phone with someone from India and shipped it back to Dell. Waited Waited...finaly 3 weeks later it arrives. Its fixed but while repairing the brand new computer they had scratched the crap out of the top. Called Dell....talked to someone from India again for hours...and finaly summed up the conversation with XXXX no I am not sending it back for repairs again, its brand new and I have waited 3 weeks already...Send me a new one....they did ...two weeks later.


Now I decide to get a monitor to use with my (what I thought top of the line new lap top). So I get on line and pick a really cool 30" monitor. Call Dell talk to someone from India again, and I ask...will this new monitor work with my new lap top..Oh yes deffinitly he says ...its on the way. It arrives but....my new lap top only has a VGA port? And the new monitor has digitial....so another 4 hours or so talking to someone from India. Yes they tell me, we have the right monitor that will work...they ship it ...and it is exactly the same monitor as the one I have. So now I have two monitors.


At this point I give the job to talk to the guy from India to a subordinate in the office. He works on it for a half day or so, brings it back to me unresolved. We then spend hours on Dell's web site and find exactly the monitor we need. We call and want to swap the monitor we bought for the right one. NO...Dell can't do it because it cost more. We have to pay for the new monitor and they will refund when we ship the other two back. We go ahead and do this...The new monitor works


End of story...no. Dell sits on our $1500 or so dollars for two months. We have to call and spend hours more and finaly force Dell in to refunding the money immdiatly. (what bothered me the most about this is that, if I had skimped and scraped money together for months to buy this monitor, I wouldn't have recieved it for three months. Thats just poor service)


Now the comparison. With what my company paid for my time talking to the people in India, not counting the lost production at work and all the heart ache. The Dell cost at least$600 more than the comparable Mac would have cost.

And that why my friend spent 5600, because he would not take my advice and get his monitor/ hard drives and ram separate from a cheaper source. He just went with macs options. I went on macs site and build a Mac Pro, not a laptop; huge performance difference between the 2. They don

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

www.dell.com/.../apple-comparison

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Apples to Apples? Well, not quite. The 17" Dell "HD" display helpfully lists the resolution at 1600x900 - last time I checked, 1080p meant 1080 lines of vertical resolution, and the Dell falls short of that - anyone who edits 1080p video care to comment on doing so on a down-res'd display? The Dell comparison conveniently neglects to mention that 17" MacBook Pro with its 1920x1200 display has 60% higher resolution that actually covers full 1080p. That's just one example that I noticed, but it shows the point that when you're 'getting the same thing for less' with a PC, you need to be sure you're really getting the same thing...

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

That's just one example that I noticed, but it shows the point that when you're 'getting the same thing for less' with a PC, you need to be sure you're really getting the same thing...

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Agreed. Although the Dell is slightly better in processor, video card, ram, and HDD, they don't offer 1080p on their 17" for some reason (just the 15.5").


Other manufacturers, do, though. HP does have a 1080p in their 17", though, and I just compared it with a 17" MBP, both with 1080p, 8GB RAM, 500GB 7200 RPM HDD and got $1500 vs $2750. Even with 1080p, the Apple is almost twice as much.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Agreed. Although the Dell is slightly better in processor, video card, ram, and HDD, they don't offer 1080p on their 17" for some reason (just the 15.5").
<p sizset="41" sizcache="11"]Other manufacturers, do, though. HP does have a 1080p in their 17", though, and I just compared it with a 17" MBP, both with 1080p, 8GB RAM, 500GB 7200 RPM HDD and got $1500 vs $2750. Even with 1080p, the Apple is almost twice as much.

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My Dell Laptop was upgraded with a better video card, and the monitor upgrade they offered because I wanted the best resolution possible. The Laptop does have the best picture quality of any PC I have ever had.


But on the wifes $1200 MacBook Pro the pictures look even better. I don't know what Apple does to get their monitors to look this good but they have done it right. People can quote numbers and processors all day, but the proof is in the end whenI put the picture you worked so hard at up on the screen, I want it to look the way it is supposed to look. Isn't that part of what photography is about, getting the best picture possible.

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Originally Posted by HDNitehawk

But on the wifes $1200 MacBook Pro the pictures look even better.

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That surprises me. The $2700 3-year-old Macbook Pro that I have is the. worst. screen. evar. In fact, macbooks and macbook pros have always had such inaccurate, junky screens that it's caused false advertising lawsuits against Apple. Last time I researched them (in 2008), they were still just 6-bit. I stopped using 6-bit monitors last CENTURY, their quality is so poor. I don't know if Apple has finally upgraded their laptops to 8 bits or not (they don't bother telling you anywhere that I can find).


Apple Cinema displays, on the other hand, are a lot better for accuracy. Not as good as NEC, but worlds better than their laptops.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Last time I researched them (in 2008), they were still just 6-bit. I stopped using 6-bit monitors last CENTURY, their quality is so poor. I don't know if Apple has finally upgraded their laptops to 8 bits or not (they don't bother telling you anywhere that I can find).

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I'm not sure where you did your research... Apple has been using at least 24-bit color (8-bits per channel) in all their laptop screens since 1998. For specs, check http://apple-history.com. I've always loved the screens on my Apple laptops. I usually have to buy a high end monitor to go with the laptop so the external monitor doesn't look like junk in comparison.


When you speak of 6-bit color I assume you mean 18-bit color, which I've actually never seen, but is apparently was used in really cheap LCDs, something Apple has never used. Apple did use 16-bit color (5-bits for red, 5-bits for blue, and 6-bits for green) prior to 1998. It's very obvious when using a 16-bit screen, since it can only display 65,536 colors vs.16,777,216 for 24-bit color. You'd definitely notice that in your photos, lol.

Interesting post, Thomas. I

I have to reluctantly admit that I often drool and am seriously considering the switch to MAC ----not for any particular reason other than my photography is the most important computer demand I have have right now; and MAC seems to be the industry standard for photo and video manipulation. But I have reservations:


1. I am not familiar with the Mac OS--I wouldn

[EDIT: changed the wording of my post to be a little less rude. Sorry.]

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Originally Posted by Trowski

I'm not sure where you did your research...

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Lookup the model number of the actual manufacturer of the laptop display (e.g. L.G. Phillips), then refer to the published specifications for it. Apple doesn't publish specifications for any of their own products, but many times their suppliers do.

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Originally Posted by Trowski

Apple has been using at least 24-bit color (8-bits per channel) in all their laptop screens since 1998.

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That is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Trowski

For specs, check http://apple-history.com.

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That site doesn't publish the true bit depth of the display itself -- it doesn't even indicate the manufacturer of the panel, let alone the model number or actual specifications. Apple uses dithering to display 8-bit color on a 6-bit display, and dithering is most definitely not the same as having the true bit depth.

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Originally Posted by Trowski

I've always loved the screens on my Apple laptops. I usually have to buy a high end monitor to go with the laptop so the external monitor doesn't look like junk in comparison.

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I've never heard of Apple using high quality IPS displays in their laptops or imacs, but I have personally verified that many of them (including mine) use the very cheapest, junkiest type of LCD: TN.

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Originally Posted by Trowski

With 6-bit color I assume you mean 18-bit color

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6-bit refers to each of the three R, G, and B pixels on the LCD display itself, while 18-bit refers to the information before it is displayed. It's essentially the the same thing said in a different way.

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Originally Posted by Trowski

which I've only seen in really cheap LCDs,

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Me too. Unfortunately, "cheap LCD" is synonymous with apple laptops and imac displays. (But not their cinema displays, thankfully.)

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Originally Posted by Trowski

something Apple has never used.

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I'm looking at a 6-bit TN display on my $2,700 macbook pro right now. If it didn't use dithering as a crutch, it would only be capable of 262k colors, and the "millions of colors" are only possible with all the dithering artifacts.


After all the lawsuits Apple settled out of court in 2008, I would have expected them to finally stop scraping the bottom of the barrel with their 6-bit TN displays.Unfortunately, even now in 2010, the Macbook Pro is stillusing the cheap, junky 6-bit TN displays: a Samsung LTN154BT08. It's incredible that they continue to hoist such poor quality on their faithful customers, but it helps explain why Apple's margins are triple that of everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

I have to reluctantly admit that I often drool and am seriously considering the switch to MAC ----not for any particular reason other than my photography is the most important computer demand I have have right now; and MAC seems to be the industry standard for photo and video manipulation. But I have reservations:


1. I am not familiar with the Mac OS--I wouldn't know the first thing about fixing it, customizing it or even routine management.


2. I have operated PC's since the DOS days and Windows since the first release. I am very comfortable with windows and can usually make do anything I want it to do. If it crashes, I can handle that without panic and without a great deal of frustration.


3. The only data I have ever lost, at work or at home, is my phone book, and that is because I failed to back it up before a baseload---my problem, not windows.


4. I actually buy my software, but how much of it will run on Mac I don't know.


5. I fully understand the componants on my PC, i can usually figure out what the problem is and if neccessary fix it, fix the driver or replace the componant if necessary.


6. PC parts are typically interchangeable. If I decide I want a new system, then I buy a new motherboard, memory and processor, most everything else will work until I can afford to replace the hard drives, graphics card, network card, cd drives etc.---I am not sure if Mac is this versatile. (Since everything is packed into the monitor---I doubt it). Now, if some items don't need to be replaced, I don't have to replace them.


7. I don't know how much of the MAC hype is trendy and how much is truley functional.


8. I am 50 years old, I have a graduate degree and my learning interests lie in photography and photographic post processing----which is very challenging for me. I am normally a right brained individual, so the arts and artistic impression is a challenge.


So, regardless of the cost, would someone please tell me why I should switch to MAC---and "it just works" isn't good enough?


Thanks


Bob

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Bob to answer your questions:


1 I had the same concern, there is a tutorial on the apple website that discusses this. Its nothing to learn, a couple weeks and your up and running no problem.


2 I really haven't had any problems with crashes. And not one issue to call support over. Can't say that about my PC's the last year.


3 Well..backing up is the same for both. Apple does offer some back up and storage options but you can still get any exterior hard drive


4 Software is a good question. You should check it out. Especially Adobe, I have CS5 complete and it would be bad having to pay another $2500 license


5 PC and Macs are both computers. Mac selects the stuff they put in there computers to control the quality and their reputation. I do not know about the I Macs upgrading them, may be a problem but if you pay the premium and it has good stuff it shouldn't be obsolete tommorrow


6 With Mac Pro you will be able to use 3rd party stuff..again I do not know about I Macs


7 Probably both, functional and trendy. I don't care about trends, I want my stuff to do what it is supposed to.


8 I am 50 as well and that description probably fits me somewhat as well


And ....it just works...and the reason I say that is all the times I have brought a PC home...and it didn't


I brought my apple home worried, and was pleasantly supprised

Rick, Thanks---Good response, Not convinced yet, but getting closer.


Ya know, My boss is a photog and he has a MacBook and he is always trying to sell me on Mac and when I look at it, I hate all of those little "cartoonish" icons along the bottom---drives me crazy---


C

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

MAC seems to be the industry standard for photo and video manipulation

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That it is. What's funny is that Microsoft's own TV and print commercials have been made on Macs. MS even had to do a little press release about it (which boiled down to "we couldn't find an ad agency that didn't use macs!")


That said, I prefer to use Linux and Windows for photo and video editing.

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

1. I am not familiar with the Mac OS--I wouldn't know the first thing about fixing it, customizing it or even routine management.

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1. OS X is very intuitive (more than Windows, I think), so you wont have a hard time learning it, but it will take time. Basic customization is very easy, but advanced customization requires command line editing and/or additional software. For example, I didn't want my laptop to go to sleep every time I closed the screen. On Windows, this is a simple dialog box, but on OS X (10.5 at least), it requires 3rd-party proprietary software.


That is one example of the basic difference in philosophy. Windows is "we'll give you enough rope to hang yourself", Mac is "our way or the highway". Another example is disabling the super-annoying "do you want to use this disk as a backup?" prompt every time I plug in an external HDD (several times a day). This you can disable by executing some commands in the terminal. Not as nice as a "don't show me this again" checkbox, but at least they made this customization possible without 3rd-party software.

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

3. The only data I have ever lost, at work or at home, is my phone book, and that is because I failed to back it up before a baseload---my problem, not windows.

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The backup solution that ships free with OS X (Time Machine) is excellent. It wont work for anyone with a lot of data or advanced backup needs, but for the majority of folks it provides the perfect dirt-simple solution. I haven't bothered to check if MS bothered to put a halfway decent backup in Windows 7 or not -- most folks use a free 3rd-party backup solution.

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

4. I actually buy my software

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Nice to meet someone with a healthy respect for copyright law. That rules out Hackintosh (running OS X on non-Apple hardware), of course.

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

but how much of it will run on Mac I don't know.

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Just about all of it will, one way or another. Some will execute "natively" with Wine (I recommend CrossOver for ease of use), others will run well using virtualization (Parallels, VMWare, etc.), and for the ones that need maximum performance you can just reboot into Windows (though I find this option too inconvenient).

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

That site doesn't publish the true bit depth of the display itself -- it doesn't even indicate the manufacturer of the panel, let alone the model number or actual specifications. Apple uses dithering to display 8-bit color on a 6-bit display, and dithering is most definitely not the same as having the true bit depth..

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You're right, that site I provided only specifies what the graphics card is capable of displaying, not necessarily what the display is capable of. My claim that Apple has used 24-bit color since 1998 came from info on that site, and I guess was based on the graphics card, not the actual display. When I do more research I find conflicting information about what screens Apple uses... some sites say what you do, other's say they use TFT LCDs.. I don't really want to argue. Comparing them in the store, the Apple screens look as good or better than their PC competitors.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Me too. Unfortunately, "cheap LCD" is synonymous with apple laptops and imac displays. (But not their cinema displays, thankfully.)

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If they do use TN LCDs, it might be a power consumption issue. Would make sense as to why the cinema displays are better as you claim. Like I said, I find information for either side.


I guess I might have to do more research on monitors. Perhaps what I thought was a 24-bit monitor may only be a 18-bit monitor with dithering. I must have been mistaken about the cheap LCDs I referred to that I saw years ago... those were probably 16-bit LCDs. As a web designer, I've never really had to learn specifics about such things, since generally graphics for the web are fairly simple and I don't have to worry about accuracy of color reproduction.


I don't really want to argue about Mac vs. PC anymore... just like with Canon vs. Nikon, each has their advantages and disadvantages, but at the end of the day they're both great tools.