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Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
One of the features that I really looked forward to when I bought my 7D was the Auto-ISO. Well, I used it for the first time yesterday to shoot over a thousand pics---and lets just say I am not impressed. I normally shoot manual so I am frequently checking my meter and histogram --no problems, except those I make. But yesterday I was shooting in a lot of different and changing lighting conditions and decided to give Auto-ISO a try. When in the field, evrything looks pretty good, histogram is balanced and shots look ok on the viewer. But when I got home and downloaded all of my shots I was dissapointed to find out that when enlarged to full screen the noise was not tolerable, it seems that I let my aperture tighten down to f14, didn't notice it and the resulting ISO was 3200---way beyond my satisfaction level. Most of my shots looked ok in an average loupe view, but when cropped, or placed in full screen---no good. Now I know most of this was my fault because I was'nt checking settings frequently, but unlike the other auto settings that show significant errors in camera, the auto ISO does not. I still think it is a great feature for the right situation, but use it wisely.
I am curious what others think about Auto-ISO?---Someone mentioned in another string that you should be able to limit the AUTO-ISO---I agree. Maybe we can get canon to inlcude that on thier next firmware update [:P]
Here is one I had high hopes for, but the noise is just too much---even after heavy post processing.
[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/24/5282.Coyote.jpg[/img]
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
In my opinion, the auto ISO feature, as it is implemented today, is a great crutch for those situations when we have to shoot in extreme hurry and with widely differing lighting conditions, when we have no control over constantly changing circumstances and no time to play with camera
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
I never use Auto ISO. The greatest level of automation I use when shooting (Canon XSi) is putting the camera in Av mode and letting the camera choose the shutter speed.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
Someone mentioned in another string that you should be able to limit the AUTO-ISO-
I think they were talking about the 60D as having it. Surely they can fix that with the update. Hate to have the 60D with more features than the upper class one.
I've used the auto-thing and got lazy with it.Picking up the ISO setting after the fact when I was in a rush sucked. Don't get me wrong, it's waaay better than the AutoISO on the 40D. It started at 400 and jumped to 800 pretty easy. Never used it after it did that trick. I think the Nikon cameras had it a long time ago and it worked better. Not for sure though. I do wish I had a button or lever rather than pushing one of the small dots on top (hard to find with gloves) and then adjusting the wheel and then finding the dot again...
I'm surpised the noise wasn't easier to remove on your picture. I do some sharpening with a huge mask (keeps the background left alone)and then do my noise removal. On pictures similar to yours, it comes out okay for an 8x10. Which programs are you using again for PP?
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
Here is one I had high hopes for, but the noise is just too much---even after heavy post processing.
[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/24/5282.Coyote.jpg[/img]
Bob, I tried reduce some noise for the picture, hope you don't mind
[img]/resized-image.ashx/__size/800x0/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/24/5265.5282.Coyote-copy.jpg[/img]
what do you think?
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by Carlos Lindado
I never use Auto ISO. The greatest level of automation I use when shooting (Canon XSi) is putting the camera in Av mode and letting the camera choose the shutter speed.
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Ditto,
I am getting to where I prefer to shoot everything in full manual mode, even shooting Birds In Flight. Once you get used to keeping one finger on the shutter button and a thumb on the dial to make exposure adjustments. Set the ISO and Aperture and then you can easily make exposure adjustments on the fly.
Bob, I see the noise your talking about in your picture, some of it looks like a side effect from sharpening. Did you do any sharpening to that picture in PP, or how is the Picture Style set up in camera?
On my monitor the white balance looks off. looks blue(cold)!
Otherwise the focus and DOF look great.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by JJphoto
Bob, I tried reduce some noise for the picture, hope you don't mind
[img]/resized-image.ashx/__size/800x0/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/24/5265.5282.Coyote-copy.jpg[/img]
what do you think?
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The Wolf Looks Great, but now the background looks unnaturally blurred rather than natural bokeh / DOF. Perhaps a little less noise reduction or blurring.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by andnowimbroke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
Someone mentioned in another string that you should be able to limit the AUTO-ISO-
I think they were talking about the 60D as having it. Surely they can fix that with the update. Hate to have the 60D with more features than the upper class one.
Yes, there is a new feature that allows the user to specify a max value that Auto ISO will use. The 60D has it. The Rebel T2i/550D has it. Even my PowerShot S95 has it! I sure wish my 7D had it...
Personally, I do use Auto ISO sometimes, especially for rapidly changing lighting in run-and-gun situations. It's great that the 7D finally has a functional Auto ISO in M mode, but I really don't like ISO 3200, and the 7D will frequently end up there, especially indoors with ambient light. The Auto ISO on the 5DII also goes up to 3200, but there at least the noise is acceptable.
Bob - one thing you might want to try is a different RAW converter. I'm playing with DxO right now, and I find that it does much better with ISO noise than DPP (forthcoming post on that later today).
--John
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by andnowimbroke
Which programs are you using again for PP?
Lightroom 3for quick stuff, which is what these shots were. If I am really interested in the shot, I'll use DPP for noise reduction
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist
Bob - one thing you might want to try is a different RAW converter. I'm playing with DxO right now, and I find that it does much better with ISO noise than DPP (forthcoming post on that later today).
Hmm, Good Idea, I have seen some of you guys talk about it, but have never tried it my self. I'll check and see if they have a trial version.
Thanks,
Bob
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by tkerr
Bob, I tried reduce some noise for the picture, hope you don't mind
Nice job JJ, I don't mind at all, and the shot does look better, I also don't mind the "unnatural background" Did you isolate the animal and reduce background noise in PS?
BTW, its a Coyote and this one was taken in the wild.Had some time with the mom and two pups, unfortunately, they were eaither too noisy or slightly OOF.
Thanks,
Bob
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
I'll check and see if they have a trial version.
They do, that's what I'm using for now. Plus, it's on sale through 12/25 - the standard version is $99, and the elite version is $199 (same features, but you need the elite for the 5DII and 1-series bodies).
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
thanks Bob and tkerr for the comments
I was trying to show Bob that you can reduce noise this way and yes maybe I overdid it but I like the way it is.
anyway, I agree if you can limit the ISO you want to be, auto ISO is a nice feature to have.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJphoto
, I agree if you can limit the ISO you want to be, auto ISO is a nice feature to have.
I actually agree, I just need to pay more attention to what I am doing, should I decide to use it again.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJphoto
thanks Bob and tkerr for the comments
I was trying to show Bob that you can reduce noise this way and yes maybe I overdid it but I like the way it is.
I can appreciate that, In fact I might have blurred the background even more to make it look like a more natural bokeh.
One thing I might have tried in PS would be to isolate the Coyote in a layer mask and then use a gradient tool on the background and foreground.
If the OP doesn't mind I would like to give it a try and then re-post it.
Quote:
anyway, I agree if you can limit the ISO you want to be, auto ISO is a nice feature to have.
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I use a Canon EOS 50D, and I've never used the Auto ISO. It is only useful when you use one of the automated or semi-automated modes. With Auto ISO selected In Manual Mode it is fixed at 400 if you use a Flash it will be fixed at ISO 400. If set in the Portrait Mode it will be fixed at ISO 400. All other automated or semi-automated modes use a range from ISO 100 to 1600.
There was a time when I used AV mode quite often and it might have helped, but now I am using Manual mode almost exclusively and often use a flash, Auto ISO would be useless to me. Outside in the bright Sun light I prefer to use lower ISO's. When cloudy or darker outside or when indoors I might want to use a higher ISO.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Hope you don't mind, Here is a quick edit in PS CS5 as described in my previous reply.
[img]/resized-image.ashx/__size/800x0/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/24/8637.5282.Coyote_2D00_edit.jpg[/img]
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
I use auto ISO on both the 7D and 5DII when I'm in situations where light conditions will change a lot. However, when using auto ISO I keep an eye on my ISO in addition to the meter, and if it gets unacceptably high it probably means I need to open up my aperture or have longer exposures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
It seems that I let my aperture tighten down to f14, didn't notice it and the resulting ISO was 3200
Based on this, it sounds like the problem was that you needed to watch the ISO as well as the meter and histogram. I'm sure had you noticed ISO was at 3200, you would have opened up that aperture. Auto ISO can be a great features, but it will require a bit of shift in style.
I really what Canon did with the auto ISO in M mode on the 7D. It creates a shutter and aperture priority mode. I just watch my ISO and make sure it's acceptable. I wish the 5DII would do the same thing.
With all that being said, I'm still with most of you – I normally manually set the ISO.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroanatomist
Even my PowerShot S95 has [a user-selectable max auto ISO]...
Forgot to add that the S95 also has a setting that controls the rate of ISO progression (slow, normal, fast), so not only can you set a cap, you can also control how quickly it rises. So with it set to slow, the camera will slow down the shutter in Av or open up the aperture in Tv preferentially over raising the ISO. Not sure if the T2i or 60D have that feature in addition to the cap.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by Richard Lane
I'll sometimes use Auto ISO for a few test shots and then I'll look at the histogram as well as the image on the LCD, and then I'll see which ISO setting looks the best,
what I have been really dreaming about is that I can set one or two of the three (Av ,Tv and ISO), and also set the range of each parameter and let the camera do the rest, this is the first dream. second dream, it is better if I can set or program the priority of these three parameter, e.g. when I shoot bird in changing lighting condition, The priority of these parameters is like this
I set f5.6, Tv range1/800-1/6400), ISO(100-800), sun setting
1) f5.6 1/3200, ISO 100, and when it gets darker, I would go
2)f5.6 1/3200,ISO 200 and when the lighting gets even darker, instead of rise ISO to 400(if you use Auto ISO), I prefer
3) f5.6 1/1600,ISO 200 and then when it's darker, go
4)f5.6 1/1600,ISO 400.......
5)f5.6 1/800,ISO400....
6) f5.6 1/800, ISO800.
and finally the dream is that the camera will always automatically correct the exposure to perfect if you shoot in raw
I think camera can check the histogram after we press the shutter half way and correct it to perfect before we click it all the way down to take the pictures
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Originally Posted by Lee Carter
My only problem though is understanding ISO ratings and which setting to use. Is there a 'hard and fast' rule or sliding scale about ISO settings i.e. low ISO setting for a certain photo/subject etc
Lee,
Though there are exceptions, the general rule is to shoot as low of an ISO setting as possible for the shooting situation. Higher ISO settingsresult in noise and that noise (grainy look) can become more apparant during post processing, especially if sharpening or pushing the exposure. Ultimately, you have to be the judge on what's tolerable to you. For me personally, 1600 is the highest ISO i shoot at comfortably--and thats pushing it. I am not familiar with th 20Ds ISO performance, Maybe someone with experience with that body can give you a better idea on what you should expect.
Bryan's explanation of exposure basics might give you some more info--look here http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/Exposure-Basics.aspx. Look toward the bottom of the article and it will provide a good explanation of ISO.
Hope this helps,
Bob
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Bob,
Many thanks for the info, much appreciated
Lee
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroanatomist
you can also control how quickly it rises
Kinda like stick shift on a car. Depends on whether your trying to pass or just out for a cruise as to what gear you what. As a side note. in lightrrom or pretty much any adobe product, if you hold down the "alt" key ("option" on the Mac) and move your slider for the mask on sharpening, you'll see exactly what is getting worked on. The black areas get nothing and the white gets sharpened.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
I often use Auto ISO when shooting video, though never for stills.
With constantly changing views, and a constantly changing "correct" exposure, AISO is a nice feature when working with video that doesn
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Wow, it appears that I am the laziest person on here.[:O] I use auto ISO almost all the time when I am outside, never inside. As stated earlier it jumps to ISO3200 way to fast indoors. What I have found is that if you are in manual it manages the ISO level ok outside and doesn't get too out of control. I could probably just set the thing but I don't switch gears fast enough and change the shutter to adjust for different light conditions. I usually shoot everything wide open so the ISO isn't really a problem. If I did smaller apertures, maybe I would have to look into controlling it a little more. I control it for all paid stuff, but fun stuff, I don't really care.
Bob, for processing with the Adobe stuff, I have found that if you put any type of sharpening on the picture it usually looks bad, especially if you have any in-camera sharpening , mine is set to 4 on faithful (i don't know if I am wrong in saying that, maybe the sharpening settings don't transfer, someone else can answer that). As for my processing work for higher ISO stuff, I make sure during the conversion to JPEG that I don't allow any sharpening by the converter unless it is absolutely necessary. Then the photos I want to show everyone, I run them through photoshop with the sharpening that makes them look the best for what I am using them for and the use noise ninja to filter out the background noise. I usually use the technique kind of like Joel described in the bird thread.
Here is a frog for example and I believe the settings were 7D, 35mm F2, AV mode F2.5, ISO 3200, 1/50 sec. I had the kids so I had it set on AV that day. I used NN on the background and nothing on the frog and it didn't turn out half bad.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ab_NE46pN8...1_02_09305.jpg
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
it seems that I let my aperture tighten down to f14, didn't notice it and the resulting ISO was 3200---way beyond my satisfaction level [...], but unlike the other auto settings that show significant errors in camera, the auto ISO does not.
Are you sure that is a good reason to avoid using AutoISO?In the same way you let your aperture tighten down to f14 without noticing in AutoISO mode, wouldn't it be possible to let your ISO setting go to 3200 in manual ISO mode without noticing? To me, it seems like they're both the same type of mistake (changing the settings by accident), so I'm not sure it's a good reason to avoid using AutoISO.
If you are in a fast-paced shooting circumstance, such as shooting coyotes, you need some sort of exposure automation. If you use manual ISO with Tv, you'll need to watch the f-number to make sure the DOF is not too thin, the f-number too soft (if the lens is soft wide open), or the f-number can't open wide enough for the exposure you want. If you use manual ISO with Av, you'll need to watch the time value to make sure it's fast enough to avoid motion blur. If you shoot M+AutoISO, you need to watch the ISO setting to make sure that it isn't going above levels where you'd rather change something else (f-number or time value).In every case, you have to watch something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
I am curious what others think about Auto-ISO?
I love it and I wish I had it on the 5D2. There's no other way to shoot fast and in changing light conditions when you want control over motion blur and f-number.
What's ironic about AutoISO is that other manufacturers didn't need the feature, yet they had it for years. Canon has needed the feature for years, yet still doesn't have it (completely implemented).Sensors from other manufacturers had the same noise whether you increased ISO or just pushed in post (e.g. Nikon D2X) -- yet they had that feature for *years*. On the other hand, Canon's noise goes down dramatically with increasing ISO (even back in the Canon 10D), so AutoISO is a highly valuable feature. Yet Canon *still* has not implemented it completely. Even on the 7D, AutoISO is disabled if you turn on a flash.
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Originally Posted by Firestarter
But, it is only a crutch and should be used as a last resort.
It's only a crutch in the same way that autofocus, metering, high FPS, etc. are all crutches.A crutch is something that makes up for your impaired ability. The autofocus crutch makes up for your inability to manually focus on sports action at thin DOF within milliseconds. The metering crutch makes up for your inability tojudge light levels accurately by eye in an instant. The high-FPS crutch makes up for your inability to time a large group shot perfectly enough that no one is blinking. The AutoISO crutch makes up for your inability to change the ISO setting in milliseconds.
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I generally think of them as features and tools rather than crutches.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroanatomist
I really don't like ISO 3200, and the 7D will frequently end up there, especially indoors with ambient light.
<div>How does this relate to AutoISO? If you don't like ISO 3200, wouldn't you change f-number or time value when indoors with ambient light? For example, if I said"I really don't like the motion blur of 1/4 second time value, and the 7D will frequently end up there, especially indoors with ambient light", how would you respond? It's not really the camera's fault for ending up at 1/4 second in Av mode, is it? That's the same reason why I don't think it's really the camera's fault for ending up at ISO 3200 in AutoISO mode.</div>
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<div>I'd love to see far more advanced programmable automation, such as being able to tell the camera to first change ISO, then f-number, then time value, all within prescribed boundaries. Plus the ability to setup "mode bracketing", so that I could setup C1, C2, and C3 all with different mode settings (one Av+flash, one Tv+low ISO, one M+AutoISO), and then take three rapid-fire shots that uses all three different modes in under a second. Then later on in post I can choose between the flash and the natural light shot, for example. Or I can choose between the one that was soft from the wide open f-number or the one that was soft due to slow time value.</div>
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroanatomist
I really don't like ISO 3200, and the 7D will frequently end up there, especially indoors with ambient light.
<div>How does this relate to AutoISO? If you don't like ISO 3200, wouldn't you change f-number or time value when indoors with ambient light? For example, if I said"I really don't like the motion blur of 1/4 second time value, and the 7D will frequently end up there, especially indoors with ambient light", how would you respond? It's not really the camera's fault for ending up at 1/4 second in Av mode, is it? That's the same reason why I don't think it's really the camera's fault for ending up at ISO 3200 in AutoISO mode.</div>
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<div>I'd love to see far more advanced programmable automation, such as being able to tell the camera to first change ISO, then f-number, then time value, all within prescribed boundaries. Plus the ability to setup "mode bracketing", so that I could setup C1, C2, and C3 all with different mode settings (one Av+flash, one Tv+low ISO, one M+AutoISO), and then take three rapid-fire shots that uses all three different modes in under a second. Then later on in post I can choose between the flash and the natural light shot, for example. Or I can choose between the one that was soft from the wide open f-number or the one that was soft due to slow time value.</div>
I know I am going to get burned for this because I usually have no clue what I am talking about, but I have to agree with John (neuroanatomist) on this one. For some reason, the 7D likes ISO 3200 more than any other ISO on the Auto ISO scale. When light is lower than planned or indoors I have found that it tends to side with ISO3200. Now, if your in Manual it really doesn't have the same issue, but if your in TV or AV, even P mode, it tends to adjust the AV or the TV rather than the ISO. I have found to be shooting f4.0, ISO 3200 is choosen when it really doesn't need to be. I suspect most people here shoot with manual so it is a moot point, but for those who don't, it can sometimes be an issue. I also wish there was some sort of limit to the 7D auto ISO.
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Oh yeah, I was thinking of M mode, but if you use AutoISO with Tv, Av, or P, I can see why the camera would probably have a different idea of what to change before you do. For example, in Av+AutoISO, it tends to choose 1/focal length and a low ISO when I would rather have 1/(f*2). That
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Williams
it seems that I let my aperture tighten down to f14, didn't notice it and the resulting ISO was 3200---way beyond my satisfaction level [...], but unlike the other auto settings that show significant errors in camera, the auto ISO does not.
Are you sure that is a good reason to avoid using AutoISO?In the same way you let your aperture tighten down to f14 without noticing in AutoISO mode, wouldn't it be possible to let your ISO setting go to 3200 in manual ISO mode without noticing? To me, it seems like they're both the same type of mistake (changing the settings by accident), so I'm not sure it's a good reason to avoid using AutoISO.
Daniel, as usual, you are absolutely correct, and "no" it is not a good reason to stop using AISO---I was just venting when I first started this string. What bothers me most is my own "air-headedness" is that even a word? Anyway, I still think that AISO is very valuable in many situations---but it should be closely monitored, as with any auto setting. With me personally, If I am shooting full manual, then I am normally very cognizant of my settings, but when shooting auto anything I seem to forget about my settings and fail to monitor them. It's just another lesson learned the hard way. But......I will try again. Sometimes, I just need to know that I am not the only idiot that makes these kind of mistakes and often blow a potentially great shot.
Thanks for keeping it real Daniel- I have yet to be able to argue with your logic.
Bob
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Re: Auto ISO---Who Uses It?
One post back there left me wondering "have the camera check the histogram and shift just before taking the photo" (or words similar to that effect).
The in-camera meter is trying to meter something (depending on your meter setting) to mid-grey. How about instead something tailored for the capabilities /limitations of digital sensors that instead checks the brightest and darkest points and ensures they fit best in the dynamic range of the sensor with, to my understanding, a bias towards not blowing out the highlights if the dynamic range of the scene is too large for the sensor.
The correct "exposure" based on the colour, actual scene brightness or photographer's preferencecan be set in post processing but at least you know the camera fit the scene into its sensor's dynamic range without pixels climbing up the left or right of the histogram.
Or perhaps that is what that "highlight tone priority" on a 1D mk4 does, but I've not read-up on that....
By the way - I don't have auto-ISO, but that previous post got me wonderring.
Paul.
