Firestarter & TDP Members!! Harshest C&C Requested!

Brief Overview of The Situation:


I'm currently photo documenting a group of touring Tibetan Monks for a week as they complete the "Sacred Mandala" at a local Art Museum. A week long process of buddhist sand art creation, where upon completion, they will ceremoniously destroy it. The teaching that "Nothing last forever", and that we should "embrace the process, with less emphasis on lingering on to the product". Correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but that was the gist I got from their explanation of this ceremony.


Photographing conditions:


Overall very dim room (I'm shooting crop sensor)


White High ceiling (at least 40ft '~12m") (Thus high ISO)


The monks work space is about 10ft "~3m" from the closest white wall.


Tibetan Monks are crouching down inches from the surface of the Mandala. (lots of shadows beneath them)


Many times, they work covering all 4 sides of the board. (can't bounce off the side walls)


I cannot get any closer than 5ft "~1.5m" from the edge of their working space. (not too high of a hurdle with 17-50mm and 70-200mm)


There's a lot of other observers walking around it so studio light style setup is a no no.


What I've tried so far:


- ISO2000 (CanonEOS7D) with Bounce Flash from the ceiling (YN560@Full) with built in flash bounce card. CPL to reduce the glare off the board.


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My Own Critique:


-When taking wide angle shots, the walls become overexposed due to the bounce card. However, without it, the monks become underexposed.


-When taking close up shots, often times it is difficult to expose their faces just right because they are crouched over so far. Lots of shadows beneath them.


-My general sense in composing the photos. It lacks that "pop" that makes one say "that's a GREAT image!".


What I Want To Achieve:


I still have time before they complete their Mandala, so I want to be able to create at least one captivating image.


Any technical advice as well as compositional advice is highly demanded [;)]

Based on the shooting conditions I think you put forth a good effort. Depending on what software you use to process you

Kinda of going on what Mark said, I think he is right about the room. After thinking about this, one thing that might make an interesting comp is to allow the monks and surrounding area to become a bit underexposed and direct your light just on the artwork---maybe with a homemade snoot on your flash. Since you have the triggers, You may even use an assistant to bring your flash in from a different direction and at a higher angle with reduced power. I think the dark "monestary" like mood might do this shot some real justice.


Good luck, and I look forward to seeing the finished product.


Bob

Interesting subject.


Not sure I have much to offer but a few ideas and mine seem to be similar to the ones you have recieved already.


How about the "Sacred Mandala" in focus and not the Monks. It seems your DOF and point of focus is more toward the monks and not what they are working on. If the Monks are OOF or under exposed it may pull your eye more toward the work. Take the bottom picture for example, if the Mandala was super sharp, and you croped the picture just a bit to have the head and portion of the body of each munk in the picture, the monks Might be slightly OOF.


Try to keep the back ground clutter out of the picture as much as possible. The top photo gives it a local community center feel, and I know thats not what you are going for. Notice the pictures and metal chairs in the back ground, not what you would expect to see with a function like this. Along those lines if you keep the carpet out of the picture as well I think it helps. A higher angle might help with this, or even an lower angle positioned properly.


If I were there with one of my tele's I would be trying to get a close up of the Monks tool they are using as it places sand.


Can you get a tripod in? In Low light that might help you some. In my mind, I would invision that the monks do not move very fast while they are doing this. Some longer exposures might actualy work.


Good Luck and we are waiting to see what you come up with.

Very interesting subject.


I am thinking that If I were there I would get at least one shot with me practically laying on the floor looking at the middle-ish of the mandala. Experimenting with some relatively shallow DOF get a shot with the point of the tools in focus with one monks face in the background of the picture OOF. or the other way around, just to experiment. Maybe even 1/4-1/2 CTO gelling a flash and zooming it all the way to 105 and shooting directly above the Mandala and getting as much under exposure of the background that you can from that. Somewhat like a spotlight shining down from the ceiling.


If nothing else. The "SKY" shot from above the monks is a definite. Also, get lower. I think you will get a better angle.


I am not sure if my ideas are coming out the way i am envisioning them. Just a little crazy advice. Hope you get what you are looking for from your time.


Cheers,


Dave.

That

@ Mark & Bob - I completely agree about the room and the clutters. Since I was just essentially nuking the whole room with light, I was concerned about the lit background in the frame as well. I love the Mandala selective lighting idea!! Two birds with one stone. I've got a grid I can use. Maybe burn in just a hint of ambient and vignette the outer edges. Thanks!! I'll try that today when I go back.


@HDNitehark - The OOF idea was the first to go unfortunately. Would have been made a very interesting photo with the focused Mandala drawing the audience in. But from the angle I was shooting at (standing on a chair is as high as I got), with shallow DOF only a sliver of the length of the Mandala was in focus. So essentially the entire photo was OOF [:'(]


There was a rare occasion where only one monk was working, so I managed to use the adjacent wall to bounce the flash for an up close and personal shot [:D] The low angle of light really adds definition to the sand so personally I really like this one.


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Originally Posted by TakahiroW4047

There was a rare occasion where only one monk was working, so I managed to use the adjacent wall to bounce the flash for an up close and personal shot [img]/emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img] The low angle of light really adds definition to the sand so personally I really like this one.

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I like this one more then the first three.

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Originally Posted by Colin500

...as long as it's not inappropriate to roll around on the floor hugging your 7D :-).

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Hahaha, well I've been there for several days now so I think they all got used to that one. They just step over me and go about their ways [:P]

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Originally Posted by HDNitehawk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TakahiroW4047

There was a rare occasion where only one monk was working, so I managed to use the adjacent wall to bounce the flash for an up close and personal shot [img]/emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img] The low angle of light really adds definition to the sand so personally I really like this one.

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I like this one more then the first three.
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Agreed. Much better.

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Originally Posted by TakahiroW4047

where upon completion, they will ceremoniously destroy it.

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I hope your there and can get the money shot....

I like the idea of a tripod and a really long exposure to get some blurry movements of the monks and maintaining a sharp image of the artwork, especially at a higher angle.

That looks like a tuff assignment. I agree with many of the other suggestions:


Shoot with a wider aperture and blur the background more, as some of these look like snapshots. You could save some of them by cropping later.


Shoot tighter, but don't totally give up on the wide shot with more subject isolation and blurred background.


Shoot lower.., as I love the last one.


Another hurdle to overcome is that they are all wearing masks and looking downward, so you're not getting faces or eyes.


Try to get some shots showing their eyes, even if they're just sitting there or standing.


Try to get some candids without the mask, as well as them putting on and taking off the mask. I assume the mask is so that they don't blow on the sand, because I wouldn't want you to invade their privacy.


There is some glare on the blue board in the upper shots, the last one looks good. I don't know if you have any Polarizing filters with you? Flash diffuser? Oh.., I see that you have a CPL. Did you use that for the last one, because the colors and the blue board look the best in that one too? The CPL, may also help with the gentleman wearing the eyeglasses.


Make sure you get the finished art creation as well as them destroying it, and get a final shot of the artwork destroyed.


Rich

Ahhh!! I should have delayed going there!! I left without reading half of the most recent advices. I really like the blurry motion idea with the tripod [:(]


I went near noon forgetting it was lunch time. There were 0 observers but some of the monks were taking turns, still diligently working on the Mandala. I took the opportunity to do a quick light setup.


I'm standing on a chair to get as high and close as I could get.


Speedlight on a stand with a grid pointing down from camera right, and front (Mandala)


Speedlight bounced off the wall camera left, and behind (Light Fill for the Monks)


Vignette in Photoshop.


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I'm wondering if the monks are too underexposed in this one...what do you all think?


Motion blur would gone well with this one...maybe I can work something out with PS [*-)]



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I like it. It keeps getting better and better.


Underexpoosed myabe in somes opinion but I like it.


If there were some way to get more bounce of light off the Mandala in to the monks face, the glow might be interesting.


Also if you do get the tripod set up, for the angle this is at. Do live view to get the Mandala in focus as sharp as you can. It looks good here but with a tripod you could get another lvl or two of sharpness.


Edit: Just re read your post. Standing on a chair with a tirpod might be tuff and dangerous maybe not the best suggestion on my part. If I suggest jumping off a cliff, please do not do it. [:P]

Sure, the Monks are underexposed, but I think it works here as the artwork is the focal point. I like the composition of this one too. Try to see if you can bounce the light more evenly or add a diffuser, even if you have to make one.


Keep up the good work!


Rich

I tried photoshopping in a little motion blur around their hands to see how it looks. Their hands are not the focus of the image so it's subtle, but it's there...


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HDNitehawk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TakahiroW4047

There was a rare occasion where only one monk was working, so I managed to use the adjacent wall to bounce the flash for an up close and personal shot [img]/emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img] The low angle of light really adds definition to the sand so personally I really like this one.

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I like this one more then the first three.
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Ditto, This really shows the level of concentration and detail in the artwork----


Nice shot. But, I do like the feel/atmosphere of the of the other two as well-----well done


Bob

I second the tripod w/ motion blur shot, was the first thing I thought of.


Definitely getting better as you go!

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Originally Posted by TakahiroW4047

I'm wondering if the monks are too underexposed in this one...what do you all think?


Motion blur would gone well with this one...maybe I can work something out with PS

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1. I think you did a good job here isolating the Mandala, but still keeping the monks and thier intensityin the picture. For this shot and mood, I do notthink the monks are underexposed, but to me, the mandala is just a little bright, Like Nithawk said, perhaps a diffuser so the light isn't quite as harsh.


2. Also, the sand cups in the top center of the picture are a little distracting, perhaps you could clone them out---just and idea


Can't wait to see more.


Bob

I got to this thread late, so I really don't have much to say that would be new and original.


As I was looking through your initially posted photos, I formulated some responses and then I got to the first comment I saw that everything I was thinking of, was already said in that first comment. Sorry, Takahiro...


P.S. Now I feel even more uneasy when you called me out to task by name. [:$]

Sorry I am late to this thread. Very interesting. I like all of the suggestions. My one comment is much more conceptual. The intent of the monks excercise is to teach that we should "embrace the process, with less emphasis on lingering on to the product." So, in addition to trying to images from above, bluring motion, etc, I would try to include photographs that capture that intent. Focus on the monks process, the details of placing the sand, their tools, the selection of the sand, the color, the type of sand, perhaps an image from over a monks shoulder to show the monks perspective, anything showing the monks focus on his task (low angle of monks face with tools blurred), etc. Then, and as I don

@Iculpin - Thanks!


@Rich and Bob - I do agree that the Mandala is a bit overexposed. I'll try to selectively tone that down. The sand cups as well so it doesn't pull the eye as much. The diffuser is an interesting idea. However, they've already completed the Mandala and is now raised on a platform my waist height. Unfortunately I cannot get to this high angle even if I stand on a chair anymore [:(] I'm also thinking the diffuser (depending what kind of light modifier it's put on) will create greater light spill that we've been trying to prevent all along. What kind of light modifier did you all have in mind to put the diffuser on??


@Firestarter - No worries there will hopefully be more opportunities [:D]


@Brant - How about this shot for "over the shoulder"? ...or semi-over. This is from the very first day so I think I forgot to use the CPL on this one [:^)]I'm very much looking forward to the destruction ceremony. It'll be this Sat afternoon, but I hear they just plainly gather the sand by brush and after a long procession to a local river, pour it over the bridge. Their ceremonial attire and instruments should have high potential for great images, if my skills can live up to it [:P] I'll try focusing more on close portrait shots with thin DOF to capture their emotions....or lack thereof? Since I guess they're not supposed to feel any attachment for it...hmmm


Thanks all!! [:D]





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