Looking to Upgrade My Workstation - Need guidance!

Hey everyone...


I'm going to break out of my usual habit of talking only about cameras here and start a discussion to find a new computer/workstation solution. [:)] I'm considering a pretty serious PC upgrade and have my priorites pretty much straightened out. I need guidance in making hardware and software choises for my new system (see below).


Before I cut to the chase, here is some background information that you may find useful.



I've been working with my LG laptop (2.10GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce G 105M Graphics) for the last year or so. It's been a great tool and has until recently met my performance needs for the media-related work I do on an almost daily basis. It handled my 40D's (when I owned it) 10MP files nicely, and I kept up with the wait as I rendered HDR or Panoramic images in Photoshop.



However: [:)]


Recently I have been finding myself more and more frustrated with the current setup. Why?

• I bought a 5D Mark II - The 21MP Jpeg's and especially RAW files wreck havock on my PC. Editing them in Photoshop and importing them (via a USB card reader) is a painfully slow process, considering their relatively massive size.
• I can't really "touch" the Mark II's video files - I can play them back in Quicktime or iTunes after a few tries, but Premiere Pro is very performance taxing and editing the 1080p files (for playback on our HDTV or for school-related work) is pretty difficult. Not to mention the render times for MPEG-2 codec. YIKES!
• I'm sending images over the Internet to clients (Yes, clients![:D]) via my site and e-mail, and frequently to my local colour lab. The transfer times for the large files I handle is pretty slow. I know this doesn't really depend on my computer hardware (it's more of an Internet connection issue - Which I plan on tackling by using a hardwired connection to my router and home network), but I figured I mention it anyway.

In short, I want more performance. I want to be able to work with my images (and other media) efficiently at my PC.



Here's the part that I need help with: What components will be necesary to keep up with my photo editing work (and occasional video editing)?

• What processor should I look in to? I was looking at the Intel Quad Core i7 processor. What speed? How is AMD in comparison?
• How much RAM should I get? I was looking at 8GB RAM (I heard using 3-channel RAM (instead of 2-channel) in Windows 7 64-bit is better - Is this true?)
• 1TB hard drive (What speed? Any specific details to look out for?). I already use several external drives, so its capacity doesn't need to be overly large.
• What kind of graphics card would I need? I want support for one (or possibly two) 1920x1080 monitors. I'm currently looking at 20-24" models from LG.
• Is FireWire that much better than USB? I.e. does it transfer data at speeds significantly faster than a typical USB connection? How do "built-in" (by the OEM) CF card readers compare to USB and FireWire card readers with respect to their transfer speeds?
• How should I go about acquiring my setup? I can (a) Purchase a ready-to-go system from a manufacturer or store, (b) Purchase a "barebones" system like this one and add components to it myself, or (c) Start from scratch and purchase all of the components and assemble the computer myself.

• And finally, how does this setup look? Will it suit my needs? It looks like a good deal (I'm in Canada).

Sorry for all of these questions - I'm 17 and this is the first computer that I'm investing in myself. I'm still grateful for the laptop my parents got me last year, but, needs change... [:)]


Even if you can answer one of my many questions, please chime in - I appreciate you help!


Alex

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

I'm considering a pretty serious PC upgrade

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What fun! Every time I upgrade my computer (about every six months) I feel like a kid at Christmas.\

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

What components will be necesary to keep up with my photo editing work (and occasional video editing)?

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It depends a lot on the software. For example, some software will take advantage of multiple cores pretty well (e.g. Lightroom), while others do not. Some will bottleneck on disk I/O, others on ram, etc. But since we can't build a separate computer for each task you'll be using it for, we'll go for a good all-rounder.


First things first: make sure your backups are up to snuff. You should have at least two on-site backups of everything you care about, and a third off-site backup. You never know when fire, lightning, or fatfinger will blow away all your data.


The other thing you didn't mention is budget, so I'll just go by my own personal standard of what a photographer would get a lot of benefit from.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

What processor should I look in to?

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I'd go with the Core i5-760 for $175 USD.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

I was looking at the Intel Quad Core i7 processor. What speed?

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Core i7 is a lot more expensive than the i5 for only slightly more performance. If you still have money left over after everything else, upgrade the i5 to an i7-960, but certainly get an SSD first. I'm very happy with my i5 2.67 ghz.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

How is AMD in comparison?

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I haven't checked recently, but in general they are something like 10% slower and 20% cheaper, so a better value.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

How much RAM should I get?

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I suggest getting 16 GB, or at least making sure you can get 8 GB now and another 8 GB in six months.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

I was looking at 8GB RAM

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Minimum.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

1TB hard drive (What speed? Any specific details to look out for?).

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Here is an important consideration that people forget when considering hard drive speed: A large, slow hard drive, when only partially filled up, can be faster than a small, fast hard drive that is more filled up. For example, if you buy a really fast and expensive 1 TB drive and fill it up to 900 GB, it's going to slow *way* down, because the inner area of the platter reads so much slower. But put the same 900 GB on a 2 TB drive and it wont slow down as much. The 2TB one will slow down too if you fill it up, but at least you have the option to choose between capacity and speed.


Right now, I highly recommend the Western Digital Caviar Black 2 TB. It has a 5 year warranty - which is not important because it saves you money if the drive fails (though that's a nice side benefit), but because it means the manufacturer thinks the drive will be reliable, and anything you can do to get more reliability of your data is always worth it. Plus, WD does free advance shipment, which I've used and enjoyed a lot.


But more importantly, you should *definitely* get an SSD in addition to the HDD. If you can fit your operating system, applications, and currently-active projects onto the SSD, you will be amazed at how much it improves your speed. More than any other component. When you're done editing the photos, move them to the slower HDD or to an external.


I got an Intel X-25m because at the time I bought it, it provided the most consistent performance and reliability -- other manufacturers were good in some areas but very bad in others. Check tomshardware.com for the latest information.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

What kind of graphics card would I need?

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Unless you're planning to use GPU-accelerated software, I'd go for a budget card under $100. Most video cards will have no trouble driving two 1080p monitors

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

Is FireWire that much better than USB?

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Yes, but only if you use very fast cards. My Lexar 8GB 300X transfer much faster on the Lexar FW800 reader than any time I've used a USB-2 reader. But even if USB-2 was the same speed, it will use a lot more CPU (which only matters if you use the CPU while transferring files).

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

How should I go about acquiring my setup?

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I recommend building it yourself. It's so easy these days that almost anyone can do it. It would still be good to have a friend that can help you, or at least try to get help online so you avoid making a mistake like getting the wrong CPU cooler for your motherboard type, etc. In the olden days, you had to configure jumpers, type in sector counts, configure IRQ settings, etc. Now it's almost foolproof.

Daniel already gave you some very good answers, I'll just add some quick comments:


All modern processors are much faster than their memory, which is why they have caches; the more data you are handling at a time, the less likely it will fit into the cache, and the faster your memory should be.


More memory channels are generally faster, but you'll need to (a) get an i7 from the expensive 9xx series because only they have 3 memory channels, and (b) get a more expensive motherboard that supports such a CPU and has at least 6 memory slots, 2 per channel.


It's probably not worth the cost, so I'm with Daniel on the cheaper i5 or i7 with "only" 2 channels; but if you really want to burn some money, get an i7 980 with 6 cores and 3-memory channels and put in 12 GB RAM, just don't expect it to be (much) faster in most normal use-cases.


Regarding the hard-disk, if you don't just fill it up, but keep adding and deleting files, it's also (again) a good idea to not fill the drive up too much, because a very full drive robs the operating system of the possibility to defragment files; at current price levels, it shouldn't be hard to just "get more than enough".


The graphics card should perhaps not be the absolute low-end, generally speaking there's more and more software that uses it for image-manipulating tasks, although using a Mac for such tasks I'm not quite sure how the state of the art is on Windows (my i7 PC is running Linux, and I don't use it for photos or multimedia). Check what the fastest card is that doesn't need an (often loud and prone to failure) cooling fan!


A shame you aren't in central Italy, otherwise I'd help you put the thing together from the individual components ;-)


Ciao, Colin

Great post, Colin.

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Originally Posted by Colin500

More memory channels are generally faster, but you'll need to (a) get an i7 from the expensive 9xx series because only they have 3 memory channels, and (b) get a more expensive motherboard that supports such a CPU and has at least 6 memory slots, 2 per channel.

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Aha, so that's how that works. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Colin500

my i7 PC is running Linux

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Yay, a fellow Linux user!



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Originally Posted by Colin500

Check what the fastest card is that doesn't need an (often loud and prone to failure) cooling fan!

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I neglected to mention it, but for the last 7 years or so this is exactly what I've been doing.

Hey Alex,


I'm with Daniel and Colin on most things.


However I think you should also take a look at the AMD Phenom IIX6 1090T processor.It does a very very good job in the multithread applications like rendering and video-editing. But it does for a lot less than the expensive Intel counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

I was looking at the Intel Quad Core i7 processor. What speed? How is AMD in comparison?

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I myself own a i7-920 and it's great, but it costs as much as the AMD X6 1090T and it's slower in most multi-threaded applications. Plus the mainboards for AMD are generally speakinglots cheaper than the high-end Intel boards.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

How much RAM should I get? I was looking at 8GB RAM (I heard using 3-channel RAM (instead of 2-channel) in Windows 7 64-bit is better - Is this true?)

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6-8GB is more than enough. I use 6GB triple channel myself and I only rarely fill it up entirely. Video-editing on Premiere-Pro CS5 is good with the 5D files that I have.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

1TB hard drive (What speed? Any specific details to look out for?). I already use several external drives, so its capacity doesn't need to be overly large.

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I use a smaller disk for my programs and all the media, photos and video is stored at separate disks. This provides quicker editing times, because the files you edit are not on the main-disk and so it doesn't need to be stressed any more.


I use Samsung disks. The F3 versions are really good and fast. A 500GB disk is very cheap and will do fine for your programs. (Provided you use other disks for storage)


An SSD is also a great idea, but it's very expensive. Too expensive if you ask me. A raid set-up of multiple disks would be just as fast in reading and writing, but a lot cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

What kind of graphics card would I need? I want support for one (or possibly two) 1920x1080 monitors. I'm currently looking at 20-24" models from LG

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Since you're 17.. I assume you also like to play the occasional game? Anyway a Ati Radeon card out of the 5000 series or later will be very good. I have a 5770 myself and it's more than fast enough to drive two displays of 24". However for die-hard * all settings maxed* gaming you might want a bigger brother [A]


Be sure you don't buy the cheapest you can find. Adobe's Premier Pro and Photoshop for example have more GPU-support these days.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

Is FireWire that much better than USB? I.e. does it transfer data at speeds significantly faster than a typical USB connection? How do "built-in" (by the OEM) CF card readers compare to USB and FireWire card readers with respect to their transfer speeds?

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I'm not sure about the card readers, but I highly recommend you to look at USB 3.0and SATA-600 mainboards. It will keep you future-proof. USB 3 is getting more and more developed and currently the market gets more and more USB 3 drives, cases etc etc. And in theory it's way faster than USB 2, eSataand the current Firewire.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

How should I go about acquiring my setup? I can (a) Purchase a ready-to-go system from a manufacturer or store, (b) Purchase a "barebones" system like this one and add components to it myself, or (c) Start from scratch and purchase all of the components and assemble the computer myself.

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C definitely!!! It's very very very easy to install a system yourself. Even for the first time. You spare a lot of money which can be put to an even better PC. You can buy a case that you like and prepare for future-upgrades by doing this all by yourself.


Only if you're very a-technical with 2 left hands, you might want to have someone else build it for you. But still then you're cheaper off than option A or B. However since you're a skilled photographer I'm sure you'll do fine [:D] Some companies offer to build it for you for a small price. If you don't feel comfortable about doing it yourself, have this service.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

And finally, how does this setup look? Will it suit my needs? It looks like a good deal (I'm in Canada).

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I have no clue what prices are in Canada so I'm sorry cannot comment on that one.


Jan

WOW!


Thank you Daniel, Colin and Jan for your replies.


After seeing the bank of knowledge I have access to via TDP (ie. You three!), I feel very comfortable taking on the task of building my PC. I

This should be one of your guide


www.tomshardware.com/us

Now, I think I'll l take up Daniel's recommendation for the i5-760 processor, It runs for $262 CDN at a major online computer store (TigerDirect.ca). With the current exchange rate, I may try to pick it up from a US retailer - But that's an entirely seperate issue.


What else is on my shopping list? I know I have to find, in addition to the processor, a:


* Motherboard


* Hard drive/2 hard drives - One 2TB and the other solid-state, if I can afford it (I hope I can)


* Graphics card


* Sound card


* Power supply





* RAM


* A case to put everything into [:)]


* An OS - I am currently running Windows Vista Home Premium. I'm looking at Widows 7, but if you guys can somehow convince me to use another OS like Linux, I'll do that instead - Let me know what you think about my OS choices. [:)]


* A monitor (or two), Probably 23" or 24". My laptop's is 15", so I'm looking forward to a "real" workstation display. I feel like that will make my work alot easier.


* I won't need a network card to connect to the Internet via Ethernet if my motherboard supports a LAN connection, right?


Is there anything I should add to (or omit from) this list? My initial hopes were to keep this whole thing in the $1000-1200 range, but I feel that I might need to expand my budget.


On a more specific note, I started looking at [b][url="http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4914876&amp;csid=_25]this[/url][/b] motherboard.
<div class="post-content user-defined-markup"]



It's the Intel DP55WG motherboard. The specs look good to my
untrained eye - Supports up to 16GB of RAM, 8 USB slots, FireWire
connection, and a LAN connection (This is what I can use, in my case, to
connect to the internet, right?). And the price is right.



What do you think of this one? Also, what are the PCI slots used
for? I assume the 3 available SATA connections can go to my HDD, SSD
and CD/DVD/(Potentially Blu-Ray[img]../../../../../emoticons/emotion-14.gif[/img]) reader/burner. Am I correct? It also seems to have a built-in audio card. Interesting.



Thanks for your continued guidance. I'll refrain from giving you guys any more questions until you can get back to me!


-Alex
</div>

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

Let me know what you think about my OS choices.

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I recommend Windows 7 64-bit. Linux has a steep learning curve and a lot of the photo editing software would have to run in an emulator or virtual machine. OS X is fine, but their hardware is too expensive, IMHO. Windows 7 64-bit is just the best of all the Windows versions right now.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

(This is what I can use, in my case, to
connect to the internet, right?)

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Yes. I recommend saving money by using the motherboard's sound card and network interface rather than buying separate cards for them.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

What do you think of this one?

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Looks good to me.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

Also, what are the PCI slots used
for?

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Add-in cards. For example, if you add a second video card in a second PCI-x8 slot (for faster video games or GPU-accellerated apps), or for dedicated raid hardware cards, video capture cards, and lots of other things. I think most users don't really need a lot of PCI slots.

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

Am I correct?

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Yes. That motherboard has six connections.


I took the liberty of building two computer configurations for you: one for $600 and one for $1150. The $600 computer is still a blazing fast 4-core processor, 8 GB ram, 60GB SSD, etc., but it leaves you more money for monitors. The $1200 just takes it up a notch to i5, 16 GB, 120 GB SSD, etc., but then you'll have to wait on getting new displays. These are all USD from newegg.com. Type the components into newegg and you should have no trouble finding them.





ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM


$19.99


NZXT GAMMA Classic Series GAMA-001BK Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case


$39.99


Seagate Barracuda LP ST32000542AS 2TB 5900 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Hard Drive -Bare Drive


$69.99


MSI 760GM-E51 AM3 AMD 760G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard


$69.99


Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W Continuous power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power ...


$44.99


G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Desktop Memory Model F3-8500CL7D-8GBRL


$109.99


AMD Athlon II X4 645 Propus 3.1GHz Socket AM3 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor ADX645WFGMBOX


$117.99


G.SKILL Phoenix Pro Series FM-25S2S-60GBP2 2.5" 60GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)


$114.99


Subtotal:<span> $587.92





Antec Mini P180 White Steel MicroATX Mini Tower Computer Case


$79.99


GIGABYTE GA-P55-USB3 LGA 1156 Intel P55 USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard


$94.99


GIGABYTE GV-R575SL-1GI Radeon HD 5750 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card


$139.99


Antec TruePower New TP-650 650W Continuous Power ATX12V V2.3 / EPS12V V2.91 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE ...


$69.99


Intel Core i5-760 Lynnfield 2.8GHz LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor BX80605I5760


$174.99


G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Desktop Memory Model F3-8500CL7D-8GBRL


$219.98 (two at $109.99/each for 16 GB total)


G.SKILL Phoenix Pro Series FM-25S2S-120GBP2 2.5" 120GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)


$186.99


Western Digital Caviar Black WD2001FASS 2TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive


$179.99


ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM


$19.99


Subtotal:<span> $1,166.90
<div>Kind regards,</div>

Woah, thanks for those ideas, Daniel.


I

Oh my! Those American prices are insane!!! The USD prices are exactly the same prices as I pay in Euros for...which is 1.3x more expensive [:|]


Anyway I have looked around a bit at the websites that you both mentioned and it seems like you have all sorts of other brands and prices, so it's hard for me to give good advice about the buying part.


I still hove some remarks:


Alex, does your budget also include the monitor(s). You can better buy 1 good IPS monitor than two bad TN monitors. I have bought the NEC EA231 WMi myself about a month ago and it's truly amazing for photography and video-purposes. Highly recommended.


And yes the on-board soundcard. Mostly 5.1 or 7.1 is good enough for most people. Obviously a true soundcard would produce better results, but you would need good speakers as well and a very sensitive ear [;)]


Daniel, I like your recommendation in general. However I'm not getting the 16GB ram part. I personally have plenty with 6GB 1600MHz. And honestly I don't see the benefit of 16GB. It looks like quite the overkill to me. I think 99% of the time 8 will do great (4 would even do good). Plus Alex could update the RAM later on if he thinks he needs more and safe some money now.


Also there's no W7 included in the package.


About the SSD, I think it's still too expensive and I'd rather buy a faster processor for the extra cash. Again an SSD could be a great future update when prices get lower. At this point, I think they're just too expensive per GB. Please convince me why this is necesary.[:P] A RAID set-up would be very fast aswell and a lot cheaper.


Oh I also see you use a mini-atx case in your second list. Wouldn't that be too small and tight. I personally have a CoolerMaster CM690 which is quite large (ATX) and easily fits multiple HDD's, PCI-cards a big processor cooler etc. The Antec probably has a better build, but if it's really worth it...


Good luck Alex!

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

The USD prices are exactly the same prices as I pay in Euros for...which is 1.3x more expensive

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Plus we don't have any VAT. (Actually, we do, but I've never yet met anyone who actually pays it when buying online.)

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

Alex, does your budget also include the monitor(s). You can better buy 1 good IPS monitor than two bad TN monitors.

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I second this advice. I'd recommend a $700 NEC.

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

Daniel, I like your recommendation in general. However I'm not getting the 16GB ram part. I personally have plenty with 6GB 1600MHz. And honestly I don't see the benefit of 16GB. It looks like quite the overkill to me. I think 99% of the time 8 will do great (4 would even do good). Plus Alex could update the RAM later on if he thinks he needs more and safe some money now.

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I had 8 GB of ram in my workstation about 6 years ago, so I guess I've just come to rely on having lots of ram. I could make do with less, but I like it when the operating system caches an entire day's shooting (say, 8 GB) into memory, so I can flip around the files from the whole day really fast. And it's just so cheap.

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

Also there's no W7 included in the package.

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Yeah, that's another expense.

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

About the SSD, I think it's still too expensive and I'd rather buy a faster processor for the extra cash. Again an SSD could be a great future update when prices get lower. At this point, I think they're just too expensive per GB. Please convince me why this is necesary.[img]/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img] A RAID set-up would be very fast aswell and a lot cheaper.

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Well, I have three 6 TB raid arrays (6 TB RAID-5) and they can easily blow away the SSD on sequential I/O (I've only measured 330 MB/s on Windows, but I can get faster than that on Linux), but I've found the latency (random I/O) to be pretty poor compared to SSD. So if you're working your photos in a sequential manner and not doing anything else, RAID would be better than SSD, but if you want to use the same disk for multiple things at the same time, the performance goes to pot. One solution to this is to use JBOD and divide the disks up by their purpose (scratch files on one, images on the other, OS on the third, etc.), but I find that this results in hassle and reliability issues (restoring from back takes more time than just replacing a raid disk).


Of course, it's only sensible if the important part of your work fits into a reasonably -priced SSD.For me, I can get several week's worth of photos onto a 120 GB SSD along with the O.S., applications, temp files, etc. When I'm done with them, I just copy them to the hard drive. Plus, SSD is simpler than a raid array.

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

Oh I also see you use a mini-atx case in your second list. Wouldn't that be too small and tight.

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Whoops! Yeah, don't buy that one, Alex. Glad you caught that, Jan. I really love my Antec P183 (I've got 8 disks in it right now), but it's too large and expensive for most folks, so I was trying to see if they a smaller one. Thanks for the correction.

alex i

Truth be told, my budget *might* be slightly higher soon - I

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

My budget was originally in the neighbourhood of $1200. Now it may be somewhere in the mid $1000s to quite possible $2000 range.


Yeah, things can change. Quickly. [img]/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]


Certainly, though, in a good way.

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Oh don't you worry, we willempty your budget in no time [;)]


Now that the budget is more clear, some of my opinions could change a bit [A] But the most important thingis that you really look out for a good IPS panel monitor(NEC, Dell, Eizo etc etc). It will really make a lot of sense if you see the difference and it will probably improve your work(flow) a lot!

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

The USD prices are exactly the same prices as I pay in Euros for...which is 1.3x more expensive

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Plus we don't have any VAT. (Actually, we do, but I've never yet met anyone who actually pays it when buying online.)

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Ah now the prices make more sense. I think that if I would have to do a large investment, like a 1D4 body or something, I could almost buy a ticket to the US, have a little vacation, shoot some great shotsand return with a great camera for the same money that would have bought me a 1D4 here [:P] Unfortunately I won't be able to try this out anywhere soon, plus I'm very happy with my current gear [A]

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

I had 8 GB of ram in my workstation about 6 years ago, so I guess I've just come to rely on having lots of ram. I could make do with less, but I like it when the operating system caches an entire day's shooting (say, 8 GB) into memory, so I can flip around the files from the whole day really fast. And it's just so cheap.

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It is indeed cheap. When I build my pc about 1,5 years ago prices where the same. They raised enormously after that and they are back on the same level about now. Actually the i7-920 that I have costs just as much now as it did 1,5 years ago [A] I'm still not convinced that you "need" more than 8GB (dual channel) or 12GB (triple channel). However if you have to work on a daily basis with memory hungry programs and actions I could see why. But for normal use and the occasional big rendering and video-editing it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Well, I have three 6 TB raid arrays (6 TB RAID-5) and they can easily blow away the SSD on sequential I/O (I've only measured 330 MB/s on Windows, but I can get faster than that on Linux), but I've found the latency (random I/O) to be pretty poor compared to SSD. So if you're working your photos in a sequential manner and not doing anything else, RAID would be better than SSD, but if you want to use the same disk for multiple things at the same time, the performance goes to pot. One solution to this is to use JBOD and divide the disks up by their purpose (scratch files on one, images on the other, OS on the third, etc.), but I find that this results in hassle and reliability issues (restoring from back takes more time than just replacing a raid disk).

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That's exactly how I do it. 1 fast HDD for windows and programs and the photos and videos are located on a RAID-0 set-up of 2 disks. I like it a lot and it works very fast without noticeable lag.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Of course, it's only sensible if the important part of your work fits into a reasonably -priced SSD.For me, I can get several week's worth of photos onto a 120 GB SSD along with the O.S., applications, temp files, etc. When I'm done with them, I just copy them to the hard drive. Plus, SSD is simpler than a raid array.

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Hmm...last Saturday I shot some Ice-skating and I came home with almost 45GB of footage. (My girlfriend helped me with that [:P]) I'm not seeying that going along the OS, programs like CS5, some games and some big school related software....


But since his budget is raised and prices are so cheap for you...I'm less against the SSD [;)] I don't know the brand that you took, is it better than let's say the OCZ Vertex 2 120GB? (Which is as far as I know performing very good)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

. I really love my Antec P183 (I've got 8 disks in it right now), but it's too large and expensive for most folks, so I was trying to see if they a smaller one. Thanks for the correction.

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No problem, I have made similar mistakes like that myself by not reading carefully at times where I should have[;)] For me the Antec cases where just too expensive. Yes they're probablybetter build, other material, better soundproof etc. But for me most of these don't really matter, since it's just standing there. I don't really care for a good looking case, it's all about the inside for me [A] Nah I'm pretty pleased with the looks of my CoolerMaster and it cools very good!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jks_photo

if money is no object I sugeest you go for the i7 triple channel ddr3 ram setup. get as much triple channel ram you can afford and go with a good video card a high capacity [maye at least 800w] power supply

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Yeah with the increased budget, a better processor might be interesting. However a good monitor, disks/SSD etc etc will empty the budget quite fast.


Concerning the video-card. As long as you're not a DIE-HARD gamer, most video-cards will do great. The 5000 series ofATI(5770, 5750 etc) are more than fast enough with their 1GB of memory. You might not get 200 fps on the maximum settings of a serious game, but who needs that with photos and videos anyway [;)]


800W for a power-supply is quite the overkill. The newer processors like the i5 are not that power-hungry as the i7 triple channel ones and with only 1 video-card 500W would be more than plenty. As long as you're not wanting to do SLI or Crossfire, it will do perfectly fine. You're better of buying a quality PSU with a good and steady flow and good efficiency.


Anyway good look Alex! I think you can create quite the PC for your budget [:D]


Jan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

don't know the brand that you took, is it better than let's say the OCZ Vertex 2 120GB? (Which is as far as I know performing very good)

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Yes, they both use the exact same Sandforce SF-1200 controller, so the performance should be very similar.

Alex;


Seems like everyone has this more than covered on the technical end, so I won't expose my ignorance by trying to add anything here...[:P]


But I did notice that you're from Canada, so may I recommend that you check ncix.com for some pricing (I notice you're already using tigerdirect which is the other site I usually check for computer parts pricing).


Have fun picking out your computer!


Stephen

I see everyone has their own preferences, whatever works for them is right for them.. I built my own pc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alex Niedra

I will almost definitely PM one or all of you with questions regarding my choices

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No, No, No Alex, don't bait us with a good string, then leave us hanging while you jump off in to those PM's [:|]. Actually, I am very interested in hearing what you ended up with and the questions/answers that lead to your decisions; I am fixing to build my next one, so this is all great info for me as well.


Thanks,


Bob

Alex, et.al, ---Just wanted to see how your new system build was going. Any Recommendations, warning or horror stories? Its been a few years since I have done a complete build; but, you got me motivated to start on my own. So far I have collected:


Intel I7-950 processor


Asus Sabertooth X-58 Motherboard


G-skill 6gig 1600, triple channel memory


what I still need to get:


Case with lots of cooling fans


Power supply---800 watts or better


What I currently have and plan to install in the new build:


2- Western digital HD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

Does anyone see any problems with my planned set up?

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Looks good to me, Bob. If it were me, I probably wouldn't bother with the old 250 gig 5400 RPM drives -- I'd save them for external backup drives. (I use a $30 docking station rather than buying enclosures for each drive).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

Is there any need to consider two graphics cards, if your not a gamer?

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If you use software that takes good avantage of the video card for processing, that would be one reason. It can be a very big deal for video editing (e.g. Adobe Premiere Pro with certain CUDA graphics cards), but I'm not aware of it having a similar benefit on still photo software. (Photoshop does some things with the graphics card, but not enough for it to matter to me.)

Thanks for the Comments Daniel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

If it were me, I probably wouldn't bother with the old 250 gig 5400 RPM drives

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In fact, I did just that. I decided to leave my old box as intact as possible, in the event the new one crashes or I have to return parts. So I will be using two WD 7200 RPM 1 TB drives in the new box for data , mirrored of course---And I am strongly considering a 120gig SSD to run programs (but haven't decided yet. For some reason I don't trust them, I just don't know why+ they are expensive)--If I decide to go with a mechanical drive for programs, it will definitely be a SATA III version.New Egghas a WD 7200 RPM 1 gig SATA III for 89 bucks. Hard to beat that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

If you use software that takes good avantage of the video card for processing, that would be one reason. It can be a very big deal for video editing (e.g. Adobe Premiere Pro with certain CUDA graphics cards),

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All I have (or need for the moment) is Premier Elements, So I will see how that runs with my current graphics card (Nvidea GTX 260) before conisdering a second or an upgrade. But this one seems to be running pretty good and it peaks performance at 7.2 on the windows scale. Good enough for my needs---I think


SInce I last wrote on this subject, I also Decide to add another 6 Gig of triple channel memory--for a total of 12 gig--I know, Its probably overkill--But memory is cheap, so why not..


Final Build should look like this:


I7 950 quad core processor


ASUS x58 MB


12 Gig triple channel memory


Nvidea GTX 260 Graphics Card


801N wireless adapter


120 Gig SSD (or 7200 RPM 1 TB WD drive)--for programs


2 1 TB 7200 RPM WD data Drives (mirrored)


1000W modular power supply (have to consider future upgrades)


1 combo optical drive


1 internal card reader


1 well venitilated case (5 Fans)


$1100 ( I love NewEgg)---


of course I had the optical drive, reader, graphics card and 2 hdsalready.


Total cost/value for one hot running box about 1500. MacPro($4k) ---top that.[:P]


Additionally, I just subscribed to MOZY for offsite backup---Thanks John for the recommendation


I should have all of my pieces and parts by the end of next week---so hopefully I can provide actually performance numbers and an opinion sometime shortly after new years.





Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

And I am strongly considering a 120gig SSD to run programs (but haven't decided yet. For some reason I don't trust them, I just don't know why+ they are expensive)

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Yeah, I don't fully trust them either, there are a lot of reports of DOA and units dying after just a month. MTBF is 2 million hours, but they still only give you a 1 year warranty on a lot of them. Plus, they certainly are expensive on a per-gigabyte basis, but I think they are worth it for the extremely low latency doing random access. The SF-1200 units are very well-rounded for performance and cost $235 for 120GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231378).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

If I decide to go with a mechanical drive for programs, it will definitely be a SATA III version.

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I don't think the drive interface really matters for disks. Even in the very best circumstances (sequential IO, large block sizes, etc.) with the very fastest ($200) 7200K hard drives, using the very fastest (outer) portion of the disk, you still wont get faster than 129 MB/s, which is still within the SATA-I spec.


In more normal circumstances, the cheaper drives that are half-full, you're looking at more like 30-45 MB/s sequential. For more typical random I/O, it's more like 5 MB/s, which is an order of magnitude smaller than the capcity of SATA-I.If you go up to the $500 15K hard drives (for only 600 GB), then you would need SATA-II to handle the sequential IO speeds.


That said, for the small amount of I/O between the host and the drive's onboard cache (e.g. 64 MB), the higher speed is utilized -- but I don't think this has any significant benefit in real life.


For SSD, however, SATA-II and SATA-III can be highly valuable -- many SSD can saturate SATA-I even with random I/O.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

New Egghas a WD 7200 RPM 1 gig SATA III for 89 bucks. Hard to beat that

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It always amazes me how fast the prices drop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

a total of 12 gig--I know, Its probably overkill--But memory is cheap, so why not..

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I definitely think 12 is the right choice. I make a lot of use of VMWare virtual machines, and the more memory the better.


Looks like a great build to me. I would probably go with lower wattage on the power supply in order to save a few bucks on my electric bill (and get more time from my APCC U.P.S.), but it is nice to not have to worry about how many components you can add to the system.



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

Looks like a great build to me. I would probably go with lower wattage on the power supply in order to save a few bucks on my electric bill (and get more time from my APCC U.P.S.), but it is nice to not have to worry about how many components you can add to the system.

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I might be wrong, but with current power-supplies, a 1000W unit with 500W of load shouldn't draw more energy from the wall than, say, a 650W PSU with a 500W load ... at least if it's not built in a completely brain-damaged way?


Colin

Just buy a Mac and be done with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colin500

I might be wrong, but with current power-supplies, a 1000W unit with 500W of load shouldn't draw more energy from the wall than, say, a 650W PSU with a 500W load ... at least if it's not built in a completely brain-damaged way?

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You're right. For some reason I thought efficiency at low load levels was really poor, but I checked the reviews just now and an order-of-magnitude difference in load (e.g. 1000W vs 100W) only causes about 10-20% lower efficiency with typical modern power supplies. Smaller differences (e.g. 700w vs 350w) are only a few percentage points. So it's really not enough to worry about.

Well, Just finished my new workstation, and performance is very nice. On my old system it would take about 3.5 minutes to process a 7 shot HDR in Lightroom/HDR Efx Pro---now that same process takes plac in 45 seconds. I haven

Great! Thanks for reporting back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

Well, Just finished my new workstation, and performance is very nice. On my old system it would take about 3.5 minutes to process a 7 shot HDR in Lightroom/HDR Efx Pro---now that same process takes plac in 45 seconds. I haven't much time to play with video yet, but the premier elements opens and loads much faster than before. Since I went from USB to SATA connections for my back up drives---they are about 10 times faster.

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Now that's what we're talking about! To me it's also making it a lot more fun to do editing on a larger number of shots, because it's so fast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

The best part, everthing went together very easily and fired up on first boot and has been running ever since (About a week) clean install on all software and no driver or compatability issues---This was the easiest build/install I have ever done and performance is well worth the money spent.

---

If you know how to install an Ikea cabinet, you can build your own pc [;)] Plus, like Ikea, most of the times it pays off to do it yourself instead of letting someone else build it for you[A]


Have fun with your new pc Bob!


Ps: I'm thinking about upgrading my pc again as well. Those new Intel Sandy Bridge processors are kicking quite some butts, whilehaving low energy consumption[:D]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

Now that's what we're talking about! To me it's also making it a lot more fun to do editing on a larger number of shots, because it's so fast.

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Thats for sure, Jan. Even the imports, export, LR3 catalog synchronization, etc is faster. The only thing I intentionally slowed down was the start up---Because I like to watch all of the drive id's, memory posts, etc ---for no other reason than to say---That's cool. Unfortunately, Now I have the bug for a Sata 3 solid state drive, which would mean reload of all software, but I may wait a while for that.


Bob

Wow, Something new I have never experienced. Since this is a new build and temperature seems to be a concern of many, I have been monitoring my CPU, northbridge and Motherboard temps----Until this morning they seem to have been steady at about 110-120 degrees F. But this morning I was manipulating about 50 photos at a time and then jumped into a batch print out of LR3----I assume this is processor intensive because my my CPU temp jumped from 115 to 180 in 30 Seconds---Once the operation was done, the CPU temp returned to normal.


My questions---


Is this normal and to be expected.


If normal, at what temp should I panic and force a shutdown or terminate the operation?


Thanks,


Bob

It is normal for your processor to get hotter when it's used more intensively. I believe the I7 950's max temperature is about 80-85 degrees Celsius/ 176-185 Fahrenheit. It will probably remain working once this limit is crossed for a small amount of time, but for longer use it will probably degrade fast.


Anyway for normal use your processor will downgrade it's own energy-need and speed to save energy. And when extra speed is necessary it will get into turbo mode which makes one of your cores faster and also increases the heat obviously.


As you describe it, you should be safe, however these are my pc's temperatures:


http://www.actieinbeeld.nl/tdp/stabilitytest4.png


This is the result of a system benchmark. My idle temperatures are in the MIN column. The MAX teps are the result of a 100% load benchmark of more than 3 hours.


For this benchmark I overclocked my I7 920 to 3.2 Ghz, so you could imagine that your processor isn't properly cooled. My CPU cooler barely worked harder to achieve these temperatures, because the fan on my CPU cooler can do 1700RPM and only "needed" 1300 to get these results. I am using a Scythe Mugen 2 aftermarket cooler, but for normal use the stock cooler should be doing good enough.


Can I ask you what type of CPU cooler you use? The stock cooler or an aftermarket one?And also what kind of heat-conductivity paste you use? These factors can do a great deal.


You might have a heat disposal or conductivity "problem".

Now that I'm thinking about it a little more. I see that you have a well ventilated case, so a high case temperature causing these high temps isn't the deal here.


I guess you're using Lightroom 64bit? In that case, the Turbo mode isn't activated by these processes, since Lightroom 64-bit uses all the cores at once and the Turbo doesn't kick in then.


In that case you can very well compare my results with yours. My processor is build on the same 45nm base, so it is physically very much the same. My processor runs at 3.2Ghz and yours at 3.06Ghz, so pretty much the same as well. For me it seems clear that your CPU-cooler isn't sufficient enough or you haven't installed it properly (uneven conductivity-paste for example).


Do these temperatures occur often? With actions like exporting and importing for example? In this case you probably should find a solution for it. At least for me personally these temperatures wouldn't be acceptable, but I'm a safe kind of guy [;)] I also assume your pc is making quite some noise doesn't it?


Are you also sure your fans are working properly?


Ps: you can set-up a safe-temperature in BIOS. An automatic shutdown temperature, which will shut down the pc once you cross the limit you have set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jan Paalman

Can I ask you what type of CPU cooler you use? The stock cooler or an aftermarket one?And also what kind of heat-conductivity paste you use? These factors can do a great deal.


You might have a heat disposal or conductivity "problem".

---

Jan, Great info, Thanks---and I think your right about the heat dissipation problem. I am running the stock fan that came with the boxed processor, but no paste was used since it didn't come with the stock processor fan.


I will try and find the Everest software---It looks much better than the "included" utilities that I have"


Thanks


Bob

Bob, I just found out that the limit I named isn't an official limit.


You might want to read this. Some of this technical stuff makes it hard for me to understand it correctly. The 80-85 degree Celcius is a widely adapted idea of a max safe-temperature, so it's not an official max temp.


Anyway, something to read: http://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/2009/02/26/intel-core-i7-temperatures/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

Jan, Great info, Thanks---and I think your right about the heat dissipation problem. I am running the stock fan that came with the boxed processor, but no paste was used since it didn't come with the stock processor fan.


I will try and find the Everest software---It looks much better than the "included" utilities that I have"

---

Bob, even replacing the sticker paste with "real" paste will reduce your temperatures significantly. In my brothers case it was a minimum of 5 degrees difference, just by replacing the paste.


In theory the boxed cooler should be good enough, however I'm wondering what this will do to the life-time of your CPU in the long run.


As I said, I use the Scythe Mugen 2 cooler(which is about 38 Euro, so probably the same amount of dollars) and combine it with Arctic Silver Premium paste and it works wonders for me.


Everest is in my opinion one of the better programs to monitor these things.


Good luck!

Jan, Here is a 5 min test that I ran, and, as you can see the CPU gets hot when under load---up to 89 degrees C. I think I'll adopt your recommendation and drop some money a an aftermarket cooler and paste.


Thanks,


Bob





[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/7/6663.CPUStats.png[/img]

Ouch...that's quite some difference!


Some good coolers(in European market) are:


- Scythe Mugen 2


- Prolimatech Megahalems (very good)


- CoolerMaster N520


However you should be aware of the size of some of these [;)] Most of these aftermarket coolers are somewhat larger than the stockcooler [A]


Not only will they cool better, they will also be more quiet. And if you ever want to over-clock your pc to increase performance, a good cooler is a must have.


Good luck Bob!