JPEG Vs. TIFF Quality for Zenfolio?

Hi Everyone,


I was wondering if anyone knows the best quality to post pictures on Zenfolio.com for large prints. I shoot in RAW with a 7D and a 1D MKIV.


I would like to offer high resolution images for small and/or large poster prints, or for high resolution downloads. However, when I upload the photos from aperture to Zenfolio, the default setting was 72dpi and 2MB. So, I changed it to the highest quality (12) with the slider scale and changed the dpi from 72dpi to 300dpi. So, now the files are about 10-15MB. I just picked 300dpi arbitrarily as I saw someone else using that figure on the zenfolio forum. Sometimes my images are cropped mildly.


Does this sound good enough for a poster print size of 24 inches x 36 inches?


I doubt a lot of people would buy this size, but as I build this website I would like to offer the highest quality, without over doing it.


I will say that even with the 300dpi 10MB setting the pictures don't look as good as they do on my monitor. I heard that Zenfolio reduces the "viewing image quality" in order to expedite viewing so that the user doesn't have to wait too long for the image to load.


TIFF Files are also available but then the upload time is very slow. But I will do it if it is better! I usually shoot about 1500 pictures for a 3 hour sporting event and out of those, I would probably like to upload approx. 500-1000 images. I have the unlimited storage account, so space shouldn't be a problem.


Should I just use TIFF and then I will also have high quality backups for an "extra" backup set?


If I use TIFF, should I use 8bit or 16bit?





Thanks for your help,


Rich

I would definitely say no to 16-bit TIFF files - outside of photographer-land, most image viewing software can't handle 16-bit files. Personally, I think high-resolution JPG images would be best for downloads - at the highest quality setting, the relatively lower compression has a miniscule effect on IQ.


Note that almost all print software is agnostic to dpi, the drivers just scale the total resolution to the selected output dimensions. What matters is the total number of pixels. If you are specifying dpi and dimensions, that's different, but otherwise, to a printer driver (including the pro labs), there's no difference between a 350dpi 16x10.7" image and a 72dpi 78x52" image - both of them are the full resolution 5616x3744 pixel image from a 5DII. Specifying a dpiis only really relevant for page layout, where you're fitting an image into a larger context. Having said that, I'm not sure what Zenfolio is using that dpi setting for...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

However, when I upload the photos from aperture to Zenfolio, the default setting was 72dpi and 2MB. So, I changed it to the highest quality (12) with the slider scale and changed the dpi from 72dpi to 300dpi. So, now the files are about 10-15MB. I just picked 300dpi arbitrarily as I saw someone else using that figure on the zenfolio forum. Sometimes my images are cropped mildly.


Does this sound good enough for a poster print size of 24 inches x 36 inches?

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Thanks John,


Zenfolio offers a free upload app that exports images from Aperture to Zenfolio. I just discovered that this app uses the default export settings that Aperture uses. So, now I changed the pixels as you have suggested in preferences.


Aperture preferences offers exporting by selecting the pulldown choices(in edit mode)of; Pixels x Pixels, or Inches x Inches, then below that there is the DPI box and the default setting is 72dpi.


What do you think a good quality would be for my purposes?


I believe most people would buy the download, however I'm not sure what the customary pixel size is for a large poster print. I could use the 24 inch x 36 inch export, or pixel x pixel width, but I'm still not sure what dpi to use?


I now realize that the resolution quality is the sum of all of these settings, so thanks for clearing that up.


If anyone knows what final export resolution, or pixel width and dpi works well for large prints and downloads I will just try to use that.


Thanks Again,


Rich

My print lab specifies that images should have 300 DPI. For a 24

As Mark states, 300dpi at 24x36" is not realistic. The unreduced output of the 5DII/1DsIII is approximately equal to a 24x36" print at 150dpi.


If you want to deliver the highest resolution possible, just export/upload the full size images. Alternatively, since you crop a bit sometimes, if you want to standardize, select a pixel output that's a little smaller than your most-cropped images, e.g. output everything at 4200x2800 pixels. That's ~12 MP and works out to ~117 dpi when printed at 24x36", and that will more than adequate for that size print at a typical viewing distance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

I will say that even with the 300dpi 10MB setting the pictures don't look as good as they do on my monitor. I heard that Zenfolio reduces the "viewing image quality" in order to expedite viewing so that the user doesn't have to wait too long for the image to load.

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Rich


Thats not good. If your using the site to sell your pics it doesn't make sense to lower the look of the quality ofan image of aproduct, esecialy when the product is the image itself.


Zen's website says they handle files up to 24mb. I would want to see some samples of what they print off. My first thought would have been to download the highest quality I could and let the printer software sort it out. When I am saving files at home I use 350dpi default IQ 10 then print to the pixma pro's 13x19 and always get good results. I would hope the lab's printer is at least as capable of sorting this out as the home printers.


Let us know how this works out, I would be currious how Zen shakes out.


Rick

Thanks Mark,


That makes sense! Since I

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

...output everything at 4200x2800 pixels. That's ~12 MP and works out to ~117 dpi when printed at 24x36", and that will more than adequate for that size print at a typical viewing distance.

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Thanks John, I'll try that!

<span style="font-size: x-small;"]

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Originally Posted by HDNitehawk

<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Rich


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Thats not good. If your using the site to sell your pics it doesn't make sense to lower the look of the quality ofan image of aproduct, esecialy when the product is the image itself.


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Zen's website says they handle files up to 24mb. I would want to see some samples of what they print off. My first thought would have been to download the highest quality I could and let the printer software sort it out. When I am saving files at home I use 350dpi default IQ 10 then print to the pixma pro's 13x19 and always get good results. I would hope the lab's printer is at least as capable of sorting this out as the home printers.


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Let us know how this works out, I would be currious how Zen shakes out.


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Rick
<div style="clear: both;"]<span style="font-size: x-small;"]</div>


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]

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<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Thanks Rick, I agree!
<div>


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]I heard that SmugMug does this too, in order to expedite image viewing, however my initial uploads had the low quality default setting of 2MP, I then tried 10MP and 15MP and they did look better, but they still didn't look as good as they do on my monitor at home, so I think I will have to experiment with the settings.


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]When I uploaded the higher resolution file they did look better. I'm not sure if Zenfolio scales back a certain percentage or to a standard size, and I just need to be above that size. I will continue to experiment.


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]I appreciate everyones suggestion, because I need to get about 1000 images up of a Surfing Competition that I shot this weekend. I will post some pictures when I get I chance.


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]I'm off to work now, so I will catch up with you guys later!


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Thanks Again,


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]Rich


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]


<span style="font-size: x-small;"]EDIT: Rick they do store the 24MB files for printing but downsize slightly for viewing.
</div>

Zenfolio is partnered with several print shops. Which one(s) did you decide to use for your fulfillment? If you chose MPIX I'd go to the MPIX site and see what their recommended settings are. Again, like John said, many printers ignore the DPI in the file and set it according to their standards. 300 DPI is somewhat of a standard so I'd feel pretty good about choosing that. I would simply upload the full resolution files so that they will achieve the highest quality once they have been up-rezed for poster size prints. I do however think it's a good idea to offer a low-rez file for smart phone, email, social networking, etc. I think Zenfolio will do the heavy lifting for you though. I don't think it's necessary to upload the same file twice in different resolutions. I "believe" that Zenfolio will down-rez your file for digital downloads.

Thanks Mark, your input is greatly appreciated, as is everyones!


I chose MPIX, so that

Hi Rich,


In the past I

Rich, I have been using Zenfolio for about 18 months now----You definately want want to upload your shots in the highest res available. Zenfolio and Mpix will do the work after that. When you are logged on to your site and choose to share one of your photos, zenfolio will offer you several size options, so no need to down size of have smaller copies. Also, if you want to order a print, but the print doesn

@Brant, Thanks for the link!


I guess you could say the website is under construction. I'm in the process of uploading images, adjusting the appearance and setting prices..., things like that. When I'm a little further along I'll post the link and I would love to get everyones feedback.


@Bob, Thank you very much, I appreciate it!





@Rick, I found out that Zenfolio downsizes their viewing images to 1550 x 960 as the max, you could even downsize this quality further. They claim that is done to protect the photographers images, and load the images faster, but now I'll have to explain to people that the images will look better when downloaded or printed. I'm not sure if that feature could be turned off.
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div>Does anyone know if dpi (dots per inch) is the same as ppi (pixels per inch)?</div>
<div></div>
<div>I'm uploading the images as JPEG original size, quality 12, and dpi=300, which comes out to approx. 10MB per image. The original RAW files are approx. 20MB, however since JPEG images are compressed and lossy, I assume that the 10MB is the highest quality for JPEGs from a 16MP Camera. If I'm making some incorrect assumptions, then hopefully someone will let me know.</div>





I'm putting a watermark on the uploaded images. For now, I'm just using the Zenfolio default setting "PROOF" Does anyone think that this is a bad idea, as it does block the image slightly, however the watermark is transparent and I lightened it up as well? Eventually I might upload my own watermark.


Also, does anyone know what a good "low-res size" for phones or social networking sites, the choices are 1MB, 3MB or I could set a custom Pixel x Pixel dimension, but I'm not sure which dimensions would work the best?


Do you guys and gals think I should charge a lower price for these low-res images, or just throw it in for free when they buy the high resolution image. In reality it takes the same amount of work to create the final image whether it's high-res or low-res.


I'm also working on some packages, apparently this website is very customizable.


If anyone else is interested, there is a setting in Zenfolio that gives the photographer final approval before purchase, so that you could re-upload a higher quality TIFF file prior to MPIX printing it. This is nice, because I've been editing these Surfing photos for the past 3 days and they're still not dialed in perfectly in my opinion, because I just had too many to edit (approx. 1500). However, if someone buys an image, then I will have an opportunity to just re-edit those images more meticulously.





Thanks,


Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

<div>Does anyone know if dpi (dots per inch) is the same as ppi (pixels per inch)?</div>

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Hi Rich, I haven't dealt with this in years,so here is a link to wikipedia on the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_per_inch). My understanding is that the terms are often swapped erroneously. DPIshould be yourprint resolution or output and ppi is your image resolution or input (when printing).So, if yourDPI matches your PPI you are printing one dot for every pixel in your image file, this would be equivalent to a "100%" image on a monitor. If you can print at 600 DPI, and your ratio of DPI to PPI is 1:1 then you also have 600 pixels represented per inch of your print (100%), or a lot of real detail in your printed image. When you print at ratios of DPI to PPI other than 1:1 you are either causing several pixels to be represented by a single dot, thus losing data, or having multiple dots representing a single pixel, essentially creating "fake" data in your image.


I hope that helps,


Brant

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

I was wondering if anyone knows the best quality to post pictures on Zenfolio.com for large prints.

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Well, TIFF is best quality, but the difference is so minute under most circumstances that it's not worth the extra time. Compared to the highest quality JPEG, the only possible difference you could see is slightly higher detail/contrast in high frequency chroma detail (e.g. red feathers the size of one pixel). For most purposes, even the highest quality JPEG settings is overkill; more middle-of-the-road settings give "good enough" results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

Sometimes my images are cropped mildly.

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For any given file size, compression is better than cropping, unless the software is braindamaged somewhere (e.g. uses a point-sampling resize).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

If I use TIFF, should I use 8bit or 16bit?

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I don't know of any printing services that can benefit from 16-bit files (certainly not MPIX); they would convert to 8-bit anyway.

Thanks Brant and Daniel!


I uploaded the highest quality for JPEG, called Original Size JPEG and I was surprised to see that it uses the 22MB RAW file from the 1D-MKIV and then I end up with a 10MB JPEG file.


Does that mean that RAW to JPEG lossy compression is approximately 2 to 1 at is highest quality?


Thanks,


Rich

You

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

Does that mean that RAW to JPEG lossy compression is approximately 2 to 1 at is highest quality?

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That's one way to think of it. Personally, I see it as more of a 9 to 1, and I'll explain why:


* Uncompressed 14-bit raw in the camera (27 MB)


* Lossless CR2 compression (like ZIP) in the camera (20-24 MB, depending on the scene)


* Raw file is decompressed and demosaiced to 16-bits in the raw converter (91 MB)


* Converted to JPEG (10 MB in your case).


So the JPEG doesn't really know that your image originally came from a 22 MB raw file -- all it knows about is the 91 MB image that is in your raw converter (e.g. DPP). It has to do the work of compressing 91 MB to 10 MB, so I see it as 9:1.

David and Daniel, thank you very much for the explanation!





Rich