Technical Problems--Advice or Suggestions Appreciated

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]As some of you know,<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] I have been concentrating on hummingbird photography.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] As fate would have it,<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] the more I learn, the more I realize just how much I have yet to learn.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] I normally try and do a little research to resolve these issues and have done so on this subject to no avail.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] Simply, <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"]I have run into a stumbling block that I can't seem to overcome and am asking for suggestions or ideas from anyone willing to take an educated guess.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"]So here we go:
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]The problem is "ghosting" I think,<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] and ghosting is usually caused by light sources that are of different <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"]durations, i.e. a flash and natural sunlight where you get a stroboscopic effect on fast moving subjects such as humming birds.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] Recently,<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] I have run into a problem that may very well be "ghosting"<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] but it looks a little different than the usual ghosting-----It looks more like a silhouette than a ghost and is more common when I am shooting with a distant background (12-15 feet) rather than a close background (2-3 feet).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] I actually think I am getting a "bounce back" silhouette, rather than a ghost---Even if I am correct (and I am not sure that I am ),<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] I do not know how to overcome it.
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]My normal setup usually consists of the follow:
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]Full manual, manual focus, tripod, radio shutter release
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]7D, 500 f4 @13-15 feet from subject.
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]two <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"]430 exII flashes and one 580 exii flash on the subject bird triggered by one pocket wizard
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]two vivtar 285 hv flashes on background triggered by one pocket wizard
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]Even with all flashes set to 1/16th power output,<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"] I am still having these problems
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]I shoot outside but in shaded area to limit the impact of direct sunlight.
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]My initial settings <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"]are intended to completely eliminate ambient light in the shade and those are normally 1/250th, f16, ISO 100 and I adjust from there if necessary.
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]I do understand that same flash power on different flashes will yield different flash durations but the difference doesn't seem to be enough to warrant different settings on different flashes (I think--feel free comment and/or correct me on this "theory")
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]<span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"]Here are some examples: (these are completely unedited and are not normally what I would post--they are intended to demonstrate the problem)
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/v33/p437529043-4.jpg
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/v30/p475265006-4.jpg
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]And here is one that has a tripple ghost---The background is only about 5 feet from subject on this one and is a pice of cloth---not natural.
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/v31/p379618857-4.jpg
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]I do occasionally get lucky and produce a shot without this effect butit is by far the exception and not the rule. Any suggestions or insight you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]Thanks,
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"]Bob

Wow! I heard you talk of ghosting before but I had no idea until seeing these what you were really talking about! I did not have this on any of the shots I took so i am sorry I cannot be a ton of help but what did come to mind was Sean's ballerina photos when he was trying to get this affect.


community.the-digital-picture.com/.../58436.aspx


I am sure he is your man to help you figure out how not to do get this to happen!

Good luck ...I know you will get it figured out!

Denise

I have a guess, and it has to do with your shutter speed.


Are the pocket wizards you use the Flextt5? I believe (could be mistaken) that those will support high speed sync on the flashes via TTL which will allow for a much faster shutter speed, up to 1/8000. Not sure about any methods otherwise, haven't read up on the subject enough yet. Stil getting my feet wet with flash.

Also, another thought.. if you're eliminating ambient completely, rear curtain sync will probably do the trick. Fires the flash at the end of the exposure.

I

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocco

Are the pocket wizards you use the Flextt5? I believe (could be mistaken) that those will support high speed sync on the flashes via TTL which will allow for a much faster shutter speed, up to 1/8000. Not sure about any methods otherwise, haven't read up on the subject enough yet. Stil getting my feet wet with flash.

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Rocco, Pretty good suggestion--but...From what I have read from the HB pros, they actually suggest sticking with standard sync speeds or less----They idea is that your exposure should come from your flash duration alone and not your shutter speed. In reality, you probably need a blackened room to truly achieve this. I am also not sure if you can do HSS in manual flash mode---But I may give it a try just to see what happens.


Thanks,


Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocco

Also, another thought.. if you're eliminating ambient completely, rear curtain sync will probably do the trick. Fires the flash at the end of the exposure.
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Haven't heard of that one before---but sounds like it is worth a try---Very interesting idea---Thanks

@ Ben, you may have something here. I didn

Yeah, Ben

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Originally Posted by nvitalephotography

Yeah, Ben's thoughts were exactly what I would have guessed it to be.
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Thanks Nick, It does make sense to me as well----Maybe one of our engineer friends can shed some light on the subject (no pun intended---well, maybe a little pun-[A])


Bob

I

Thanks A.Rod. I have read a lot from this guy (Eric Miller) but missed this particular explanation.....It seems that he describes the cause, effect and cure for my ghosting problem (the second type--Dodging) ---Looks like I have to go back to plants on the backporch for a background instead of trees in the back yard.


Thanks again,


Bob

Bob,


Of all the suggestions so far I think Ben could be right. I do not think increasing shutter speed or using rear curtain sync will help. My suspicion is that it might be the different brand flashes having different pulse durations or it could be that 1/16 power is just not fast enough. I have had this happen frequently as well at 1/16th power.


I would try using only one flash on the BG and use all your other ones for the bird at 1/32 power, just move them a little closer to account for light loss due to inverse square rule. I would also opt for a slower shutter speed and slightly higher ISO.


Joel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

Maybe one of our engineer friends can shed some light on the subject (no pun intended---well, maybe a little pun-[img]/emoticons/emotion-13.gif[/img])
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I'm an engineer, but a mining engineer not electrical. So I can't really help you out with the circuitry stuff but if you need to blow your speedlites up or bury them in a VERY large hole I'm your man. [:D]

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Originally Posted by btaylor

I'm an engineer, but a mining engineer not electrical. So I can't really help you out with the circuitry stuff but if you need to blow your speedlites up or bury them in a VERY large hole I'm your man. [img]/emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img]

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Ben, Thanks for the offer, but my wife says I'll have to pass----Although I often wish to have someone with your talents in my back yard[;)]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A.Rodriguez.Photo

Mr. Williams

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A.Rod, Please, please , please call me "Bob"---we are all equals here---BTW, what is your first name? I ask only because " A.Rodriguez.Photo" is too hard for me to type[:^)]---By the way, Your link to that website was very, very helpful---Thanks again.


Bob.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joel Eade

Bob,


Of all the suggestions so far I think Ben could be right. I do not think increasing shutter speed or using rear curtain sync will help. My suspicion is that it might be the different brand flashes having different pulse durations or it could be that 1/16 power is just not fast enough. I have had this happen frequently as well at 1/16th power.


I would try using only one flash on the BG and use all your other ones for the bird at 1/32 power, just move them a little closer to account for light loss due to inverse square rule. I would also opt for a slower shutter speed and slightly higher ISO.


Joel
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Joel, You and Ben may be correct, But I also think that the A.Rods's link has significant merit. Eric Millerdesribed my problem perfectly and offered solutions to overcome it.If I still have birds thisweekend, I will try and overcome the problem by moving my background back up to the shaded porch and using more flashes to see if I can increase my keeper rate. If that fails then I maybe be stuck. Ihave 5 flashesand really have no other use for them other that this obsession with H-birds---So I am reluctant to purchase more speed lights. Wish me luck and I will post results, good or bad...


Thanks,


Bob

I wouldn't think think it is a problem with multiple flashes. This one was shot with one flash and it has plenty of ghosting (wings and tail). The background was about 8-10 feet behind the bird and was white.


Pat


[View:http://community.the-digital-picture...neric/utility/http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6061/...f943b84640.jpg:550:0]

Pat, I think you are correct---A.Rod offered a website that clearly explains this---The problem seems to be a distant background and/or a background that is well exposed. And this is exactly what I experienced when I moved to a more distant background and decided to add more lights to that background. To date, my best keeper rate was realized when I was shooting a natural background (flowers and foliage) only about 2 or 3 feet behind the target bird and in a well shaded area. I tried to improve the bokeh by moving to a distant background, but then the ghosting increased considerably. I could reduce my aperture to improve bokeh, but then the focus range on the bird is decreased from 1/2 inch to paper thin thereby reducing keeper rate----So it looks like I just need to find a happy medium and do as much as I can to block out any ambient light. I thought about hanging black tar paper from my porch to block out ambient light, but my wife has issues with this[:(].


Thanks,


Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joel Eade

I would try using only one flash on the BG and use all your other ones for the bird at 1/32 power, just move them a little closer to account for light loss due to inverse square rule. I would also opt for a slower shutter speed and slightly higher ISO.


Joel

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This is a great idea, and if I still have birds this weekend, I'll give it a shot. If not, I will try out my new doghouse blind and try and shoot some songbirds.





Bob

Alrighty then......a new blind for backyard songbirds.....now you're talkin' my language Bob[Y][*][*][:D]

PS keep the shutter speed up as much as possible on that 500mm lens to get the sharpest pics of songbirds!

Shutter speed--Check, Blind--Check---Now i'm Ready[:D]

Shutter speed--Check, Blind--Check---Now i'm Ready[:D]

Hi! I remember Canon issued a Product Advisory on this ghosting problem. It should be solved with the 1.1.0 firmware update so you better check it, just to be sure that is not related.


Here is the reference:


www.usa.canon.com/.../eos_7d


Regards.


Luciano