"Recently, I took an interest in youth sports action photography. I am confident there is a market there---I just haven
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"Recently, I took an interest in youth sports action photography. I am confident there is a market there---I just haven
Bob,
Couple of things. You may first need to get permission from the rec league, and if schools, the city/county. Many leagues have contracts with a company to just do portraits. It seems getting a vendor license will cover this.
In the youth sports I have covered: soccer, football and surfing, we break up galleries by team names. Before the games we offer to sell coupons to interested parents who want to guarantee an action photo of their kid. We still cover the whole game as well.
When publishing on our site, we separate out by team name or time slot (in the case of surfing) and allow the parents to browse through those galleries no restrictions, we email the parents and coaches with the link to the galleries. This also has a search function.
You can do what we do in Triathlons where we link images to bib/jersey numbers and email individual players a link to their photos and allows a person to search by last name and/or jersey/bib number but this is a royal royal pain in the ass if you have over 2000 images and you are the only one doing post.
My sports site: www.triduo.com
who does the managing of the orders and such: www.exposuremanager.com
On field work: Football you can get away with alternating between sidelines and goal area for shots, you will need two bodies: a telephoto and a wide. Follow the ball, grab some blocks as well.
Soccer: Depending on field size you can park yourself in a corner and cover the entire field with a 300-400 or move around. Again a wide and tele is a good idea. Follow the ball, timing is key here.
Baseball: zzzzzzzzz. Probably one of the most boring sports to shoot. Alternate between 2nd and 3rd base line.
Ehcalum, Thanks for the tips
I really like the idea of seperating by team names vs the whole game---. I Looked at your website and really like the triptych you did with the triatheletes as well---I hadn
The montages are always popular, and are made using a photoshop database and action.
No issues outside of league/parent permission. Password protection doesn
Bob,
I was interested in your venture as I seem to be doing more and more sideline shots myself.
IMO, I would keep the pictures password protected. I have two children in Middle School (junior High) and I know how some parents (including me) don
I am kind of curious about this and wonder if any one will answer this:
In sporting events like this what are the legal ramifications of taking the kids pics and posting them on the web?
Do you have to get permission from the parents for this?
Or Just permission if you try and sell them?
If the league gives you permission, does that mean the parents consent as well?
I know that in our school system they send releases home if they intend to post any ones pic on the web.
Not long ago a school in Texas wouldn't allow Al Jazeera to take pictures of a game. They said it violated the children's rights.
I know the local television broadcast games, as they are news. I am not sure how all this applies to a local news station. The school never asks for permission for this.
This spring at my daughter's softball game I was asked by several parents if I had a web site, sold pic's etc....
I started to post them on a secure web site and give the other parents the links, but decided not to since I did not have any other parents permission and didn't fully understand the law in this regard.
Hi Bob,
Here are some random thoughts in no particular order:
If you are going to make a go of this then perhaps you should revamp your website to better represent your sports photography interest and then transfer the other photos in their folders into a portfolio gallery. Afterall, you have to peak the interest of the young boys and girls that visit your site.
I would password protect the galleries, but I would choose a password that everyone who attends the school can easily guess, with a password hint. This way they don't have to e-mail you for the password, which I think is an extra roadblock that you don't need, and it will probably inhibit sales. I think that will represent reasonable protection. Lets also realize that anyone who really wants to get into the gallery can just e-mail you for the password by picking up your card off of the ground and saying I would like to check out my kids photos so what is the password?
A lot of sports photographers have liability insurance in case someone gets injured because of you, especially if you ever set-up strobes indoors, on clamps or on light stands that can fall on someone or if someone tripped over any of your wires.
A monopod is a must. I also have a Gitzo big-foot on the bottom of mine, so that it doesn't dig into a soft field or mud.
Kneepads are also a must for shooting low, especially with kids. Try some knee pads on while in the store and test them out. Don't get pads that are too round in the front, because they tend to rock side to side.
The 500mm on a 7D is pretty long for shooting routine plays, but it's probably perfect for isolation shots of individual kids. Try to shoot all of the players if you can. You could copy down all of the jersey numbers before the game and then check them off with a mark when you have captured them. Once you have become fully acquainted with the coaches, maybe they can get you a roster, but I wouldn't be asking for too much when you're just starting out, because you should really stay out of the way.
You should only shoot from the 30 yard line to the goal line on all 4 corners of the field. Look at the Sun to determine where you start and where you end up. Try to keep the Sun at your back and avoid shooting into it if possible. You should leave most of the space in between the 30 yard lines for the players, coaches and refs. You can also comfortably shoot behind the end-zone, especially with that big bazooka of yours. You will get very clear passing and running lanes with nice clean backgrounds. Keep one eye on the field if you can, and always have an escape route if you are about to get run over by a a player. You should practice getting up and out of the way quickly while lifting all of your gear out of the way.
Don't post any embarassing shots of anyone. Don't post any wardrobe malfunctions or compromising shots of the cheerleaders. I would also avoid linking a kids name to their photo. Don't post any injuries.
Just because someone didn't buy photos after the game, doesn't mean they want buy them later. However, your best bet is to have them buy them as quickly as possible. You may want to consider a coupon that expires in a couple of days. Zenfolio has this capability, but I have never used it. If you could get the photos up the same day, then that is always the best, but it's a lot of work. I'm not crazy about splitting up the teams. It also sounds like a lot of extra work. I would post the photos by the game.
I always give the coaches free shots of themselves. Show some shots of the previous week to the parents if you can. I would probably avoid showing the shots to the kids right before the game, because the coaches have enough of a hard time to get everyone focused on the game and I wouldn't want you to detract from that.
Bring rain gear (pants and a hooded jacket), waterproof boots and a rain cover for your camera and lens. I leave all of that stuff in my car, even if it looks nice out.
If you get a shot of a play that the ref called incorrectly, then don't show it to anyone. You will definitely at least aggravate one of the coaches and the ref.
If you want to post some shots, then I will do my best to provide some C&C.
Rich
HD, I have all the same concerns as you do and here are some of the answers to those questions I have gleened off of the internet, from articles and such. Keep in mind that I don't particular trust anything I read on the internet, nor are these from any sources I can verify as reliable. Lastly, please not that this is my paraphrasing of what I understand thus far---so that adds another layer of unreliability --Enough of the disclaimer, you get the point. Here goes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDNitehawk
For public events on public property such as city parks, city ball fields etc, There doesn't seem to be any restrictions for photographers. It seems that you basically have the same rights as the press; nor does there seem to be any distinction between adults and children (this may vary from state to state or city to city). For example, if a photographer takes a pic at a public event and on public property and sells that to the local newspaper then that seems to be acceptable and legal. There is no distinction if you choose to sell that photo on your website provideing it doesn't violate other laws---such as child endangerment, porn, etc. (gray area, I know)
If the event is on school property then that property belongs to the school system/district and can be managed by them as they see fit, including who is allowed on that property and for what reasons---basically, tresspassing rules apply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDNitehawk
Most parents usually have to sign a document that says they will abide by the rules, policies and decisions of the league during league events---this would include acceptance of who the league chooses as authorized vendors.
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Originally Posted by HDNitehawk
Refer to the first answer: On school property, the school makes the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDNitehawk
Through my formal education, Itook many undergraduate and graduate level law courses and the one thing I learned is that very few people "understand the law" unless they are very specialized in a specific area----even if they do, the ultimate decision is commonly made by a jury who often makes decisions based on thier feelings and not on the law or the evidence. So regardless of how rock solid your legal counsel is; if someone wants to make this painful for you, they can.
I really don't have anything that would or should make you feel more comfortable on this. But I do have a discussion point:
Kid pictures are taken often by professional photogs. These pictures could be class photos, individual school portraits, team photos etc. They are commonly published in yearbooks, school newspapers (including websites), local papers, local flyers etc----as a parent, i don't recall ever signing a release for such photos---how about you? One may argue that these shots aren't taken for commercial purposes,I would counter thatsomeone is making money from them. Is this argument legally defensable---probably not, but It is fun to argue.
Hopefully, there is someone else out there that can offer something more concrete.
Bob
Richard, Wow, thanks for the "random thoughts" very informative and I really appreciate the time you took to offer your insights
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lane
You are absolutely correct. Infact, I have a four day weekend coming up and hope to make timeto design a new look to the website. My only problem is that youth football is over now and I don't have time to collect neccessary permissions for the school system events before thier season is over-----Perhaps some indoor sports on the horizon----Hmmm, do I have the glass for indoor stuff?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lane
I am still contemplating that---I am convinced that passwords are a needed and reasonable protection, but getting the password to the right people is the challenge. I had also thought about a "registration" process in order to gain access similar to what websites do when you need to retrieve a lost password---this serves two purposes: 1st, I can track who is getting the password and also, I have an email list I can send info to on new games/shoots/products---is this to spammy? I fully understand that anyone can make up a name and email, but would this process be considered "reasonable protection"
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Originally Posted by Richard Lane
Good idea, I'll call around for prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lane
Gotem both----But I bought the cheap knee pads---now I know why they are cheap----going with the flat bottom, non-marking gels next time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lane
I have been shooting from the endzone---(the light determines which one) The 500 seems to be great when shooting daytime beyond the 50 yard line for isolation or maybe a couple of player shots.But I am starting to understand why the pros choosed the 400 f2.8. I desparetly need to get something shorter--say a 70-200, maybe even wider for those redzone plays on the near end.---figuring out a way to track the kids name and numbers is still a challenge, but I have been thinking about it and will continue to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lane
Actually, So far I have only shot from the endzone to 15 or 20 yards behind the endzone because the 500 seems to close for anything else---and I choose the endzone that has the best light advantage. I am currently shooting on the principal that from one endzone, I can get both teams coming towards me--one team in he first half and theother team in the second half. Generally, that works but I know Iam missing some plays. Keeping and eye on the field and following the play is probably my biggest shooting challenge. This last weekend, I had my wife call outright or left to let me know which way the play was moving---especially on the passing plays (this is very difficult to tell when your looking through the eyepiece.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lane
Got it, infact, this last weekend, I had to decline posting an otherwise decent shot, because in the background I realized a mom's blouse flew up while she was cheering.----Gotta watch those backgrounds too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Lane
Great advice, I hadn't thought about giving the coaches free prints----what a great idea.--Thanks
I do keep raingear in my truck and a large plastic bag in my back pocket for just such occasions.
Got point on the bad call recommendation----another one I hadn't thought about.
Thanks again for the great tips, they are very much appreciated. If you think of anymore, please do share.
I'll get some more shots up for yours and others critique.
What an excellent thread and answers here, thank you all who have contributed.
Steve
Thanks to all for thier great input on this string-it has really been helpful for me, and hopefully for others. Richard asked me to post some shots for C&C and I will, but first let me say I had my third sale today and another inquiry from a team mom who wants to share the password with the other parents. Maybe some more sales on the horizon:) What I did notice and thought was interesting is that all 3 of my sales are volume sales, not one or two prints, but more than ten prints---on person even bought 24 prints and most were different shots. If we have any pro marketers out there, perhaps they can shed some light on this. This may be one of those low cost/high volume businesses or just anomly, I honestly don't know. What do you think?
Anyway, here are a couple more shots for C&C.
Thanks,
http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/v30/p504895037-4.jpg
http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/v31/p161158786-4.jpg
This is a (wrong end) touchdown shot---But I loved the kids reaction and expression in the background
http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/v27/p162986824-4.jpg
http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/v23/p973047474-4.jpg
As far as the rules for shooting kids or adults. I understand the law to be exactly as Bob has described it. You just can't sell or use any of the pictures for commercial advertising without a written release.
#1: Nice action shot, it would have probably looked better without that big white canopy behind the white helmets, but not much more you can do, besides some PP. Maybe you could decrease the exposure a notch, and increase the contrast and black point a bit.
#2: Looks good, nice exposure, good action (including the ball and eyes), watch the horizon. Great body position. The ball is very sharp, but the upper body looks a little soft to me, so try a faster shutter speed.
#3: There is some emotion there which is good. The kid in the yellow shirt does make the shot, but he is not the focal point and he is a little blurry, There is also the kid on the ground who looks upset that he missed the tackle (that's good emotion too). It's hard to tell that that was a touchdown play. The kids in the black jersey's kill the shot a little bit , because they are not on either team. So, there is no jubilation or dejection there. The ball carrier has his back to the lens, which is not as desirable. Busy background.
I like to move down the field with the team so that I will have the offense coming towards me onmost drives. There is usually a time out during a change of possesion so that you can move around. I understand that the 500mm on the 7D is a little long and thatwill limit your positioning on the field somewhat.
#4: Good action, good face, good ball, grass is flying up in the air. Nice exposure, busy background.
No matter what the C&C is parents are going to love these. I think parents buy a lot of shots to give to the grandparents and such.
Since youth football is ending for you, maybe you can try and shoot the Jr. high school team, and the high school JV and varsity teams. That's 3 more teams.
I hope that helps. All in all, I think that if you keep this up then you can be highly successful at it.
Rich