High Range ISO---Saved Me

I shot a night high school football game last night and lets just say, The lighting wasn't what I was used to. When I first got there and started to get my camera settings dialed in, I realized that this was going to be a challenge. My initial settings were ISO 6400, F4 and that would only allow a shutter speed of 250-300---not near fast enough for a football game. After about 5 minutes of shooting, I decided to try the high range iso (12800). At this ISO I was very concerned that nothing would be usable. I was pleasnatly surprised. Yes, I did have noise and IQ problems and my shots were certainly not as clean as I had wanted, but I think I still managed to get some fairly useable shots.


Now, I have always been reluctant to go above ISO 1600 and even that is too high for what I try to achieve when I shoot, But after last night I will be more willing to bump the ISO if the shot requires it.


What I learned:


1. If you need the high ISO, use it. (you can fix noise problems in post, but you can't fix motion blur)


2. With this kind of lighting, frame rate and AF is slowed considerably


3. IQ takes a hit with these settings.


4. Better a less-than-perfect shot, than no shot at all.


Here are some examples: 7D, 500L, f4.0, shutter 650, ISO 12800 (of course I used noise reduction in LR3)


http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/s11/...69953347-4.jpg





http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/s11/...48656507-4.jpg





http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/s11/...02428556-4.jpg


http://rwilliamsimaging.com/img/s11/...76856231-4.jpg





More here: http://rwilliamsimaging.com/p35216761#h13a1c4cf

P.S. Sorry for the watermarks

Love the second shot. Got the grass clips too.

These are great shots, Bob! ISO 12800 and the 7D is not the best combo but it is good enough. If one needs better IQ the Mark IV is the camera to get but it cost a lot.

Fantastic shots....Wel ldone Bob

You need f/2.8, ISO 1600 at around 300 to 500 shutter depending on the light and that was usually at crappy high school stadiums in Arkansas. I could average those settings with my 30D and 40D with 580Ex set to manual cranked down slightly on the power to get multiple flashes with good results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freelanceshots

You need f/2.8, ISO 1600 at around 300 to 500 shutter depending on the light and that was usually at crappy high school stadiums in Arkansas. I could average those settings with my 30D and 40D with 580Ex set to manual cranked down slightly on the power to get multiple flashes with good results.
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Unfortunately, we can't use flash during the games here. Perhaps I'll just go down and buy me a 400 2.8 (after I win the lottery:).


I was wondering how many out there had used the high range ISO on the 7d or other capable bodies and what your impressions were. I was actually pleasantly surprised. The results didn't seem as bad as I had expected---just stay away from the heavy crop and avoid pushing the exposure in post. The shots werenot great, but they were ok and usable for my purposes at the time.

@Wally, Thanks


@johnny---Thanks and the 1D IV is on my short list


@Greg--Thanks, The fiels was kind of wet so I actually got several shots with the players kicking up the grass--and your correct, the airborn grass and dirt seems to make the shot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

I was wondering how many out there had used the high range ISO on the 7D or other capable bodies and what your impressions were. I was actually pleasantly surprised. The results didn't seem as bad as I had expected---just stay away from the heavy crop and avoid pushing the exposure in post. The shots werenot great, but they were ok and usable for my purposes at the time.

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Hey Bob,


Great shots in such poor lighting! I especially love the 2nd and 3rd one.


These were from the playoffs last season at Hofstra University, which has better lighting than the High School fields that I usually shoot at. My primary shooting is with the MKIV 300mm f/2.8L IS and when the play comes close to me, I switch to the 7D and 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II: I'll try to post some with each setup from the same game. These were not processed.


These are ALL with the: 7D: 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II @ 70mm f/2.8 ISO 6400 1/1000sec. (Un-cropped Version)



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6112/...1e5c67c7_b.jpg





(Cropped Version) ISO 6400



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6104/...e6acc5ce_b.jpg





(Un-Cropped) ISO 6400



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/...5c232cfe_b.jpg





(Un-Cropped) ISO 6400



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6116/...493dd620_b.jpg





(Un-Cropped Version) ISO 6400



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6118/...dcdf4df8_b.jpg





(Cropped Version) ISO 6400



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6217/...c95ebdec_b.jpg


Rich

1D MKIV: 300mm f/2.8L IS. At Hofstra University with Stadium lighting, which was OK.


This was my first night using the MKIV, and the images on the LCD looked better than when I got home. So, in retrospect I should of lowered my SS, in order to get a lower ISO.


These are straight out of the camera and are all unprocessed and unedited:


ISO 12,800 1/1250sec. f/3.2



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6032/...dc8c4ee9_b.jpg





Here is a set that shows f/2.8 @ 1/1250sec, and ISO 6400 to ISO 12,800 on the same play (sequence) due to Auto ISO.


ISO 6400 Running Back breaking tackles.



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6098/...235387bc_b.jpg





ISO 8000



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6093/...e89a8655_b.jpg





ISO 10,000



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6111/...b0fa02e5_b.jpg





ISO 10,000



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6214/...7a3eb316_b.jpg





ISO 12,800



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6117/...06b75410_b.jpg





ISO 12,800



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6225/...d96f3123_b.jpg





ISO 12,800



http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6113/...4c48cbd3_b.jpg


Rich

Richard, great shots and 70-200 2.8L IS II is one great lens (Still on my wish list). As it stands now, I am only shooting with the 7D and the 500 F4 L. I was trying to shoot the close shots with my 400 D and 100 2.8L IS---but that just didn

Great shots Richard. And these shots serve to reconfirm my personal discovery that 12,800 iso is definately usable in a pinch---not great, but usable. Based on your shots, the 1DIV certainly handles the high ISO better than the 7d.


Thanks for sharing

One more question for Richard---what AF mode do you normally use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

I am considering selling off the 500 for a 400 2.8 but my passion is still wildlife so the sports business really has to take off before I make a move like that. Nest on the buy list is the 1dIV and the 70-200 2.8L IS II.


One question for you: Do you use IS when shooting sports?

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Thanks Bob!


I never use IS for shooting football, since it is such a start and stop game, and the reason is that there is a slight delay from when I start tracking until the IS settles down. It is only about a second or two, but it is long enough for it to cause a jump in the viewfinder and mess me up for the shot. I also find that the IS, tends to counter my movements and I feel that it is fighting me at times.


IS is probably better for sports that have a constant flow to them like soccer, motorsports or Air Shows, which has less starting and stopping of the IS. In these instances it can settle down the viewfinder, especially when shooting handheld. The IS also drains the batteries faster if you're ever running low on juice, but with the batteries these days, it's really never a problem anymore.


As you have quickly discovered, an f/2.8 lens is really essential for shooting at night or after school for that matter. I think the 400mm is too long for the 7D. If you stick with a 7D 1.6crop than I would recommend the 300mm. I think the 300mm or 400mm would be a good choice for the 1.3 MKIV sensor.


I actually think that the 300mm works great with the MKIV especially when you're first starting out since it's easier to track the action and follow the ball with the 300mm wider angle of view. You're always better off to leave some room around your shots and then crop the extra 100mm out later. As you can see in most of my shots there is room for cropping, since it's better than cutting out the action with too long of a lens. However, if it's true that Canon will eventually stop making the MKIV sensor, than the 400mm would probably be a better investment into the future if full frame becomes more popular.


We probably have better access to the field while shooting High School football than the Pros have while shooting the NFL. If I decide to go full frame then I would go with the new 400mm.


Rich





EDIT: Bob, If you stick with this than you could try a shorter prime than your 100mm or a short zoom on your 40D and look into purchasing a used 300 f/2.8L IS version I for your 7D, and try and keep your 500mm f/4L.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

Great shots Richard. And these shots serve to reconfirm my personal discovery that 12,800 iso is definately usable in a pinch---not great, but usable. Based on your shots, the 1DIV certainly handles the high ISO better than the 7d.

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Thanks again Bob! Yes, the ISO 12,800 on the MKIV is more than quite usable and remember that these shots don't even have any noise reduction applied to them. In addition, these were shot under University stadium lighting, which is much better than High School lighting. Also, I should have lowered my SS for even better ISO performance. Bob, if you recall in the 1D X thread, I was hoping for nice clean output at ISO 12,800 f/2.8 and 1/1000sec for the new 1D X.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

One more question for Richard---what AF mode do you normally use?

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AI Servo, high speed continuous, manual single point selection with surrounding AF points. Evaluative Metering. IS off. Monopod. Kneepads.


In the beginning I was shooting AV mode at f/2.8 with Auto ISO, but then the camera adjusts two variables (SS and ISO) and I didn't like that, then I switched to Manual with Auto ISO, and as you can see above, there will be different ISO's for the same play, which I don't really like and I also found out that as the lighting changed, then my manual exposures were all over the place, and they required a lot of post-processing which I would like to avoid since during a typical game I shoot around 1000 shots. I also read that Auto ISO, fluctuating between shots can slow down processing speed, however I'm not sure how true that is.


Now, I have come full circle and I like AV Mode @ f/2.8 and I use a "fixed ISO" to be high enough, so that my "shutter speeds are at 1250/sec or above in daylight," and above 1/500sec to 1/800sec at night. You just have to make sure that you keep an eye on your shutter speeds and increase the ISO accordingly as the light changes. Be aware that it's usually darker near the end-zone, so make sure that your shuuter-speeds will hold up at that part of the field, or else the SS can drop suddenly leading to blurred images. I have found these settings to be the best by far.


Bob, I just shot a game this Friday night, that started in the day and ended with the lights on at night, and the lighting was terrible. I would be happy to post some more shots if you're interested in seeing what bad High School lighting looks like.


Rich

Rich, thanks for the info. Actually, I am getting better at tracking the action with the 500---but it really needs to be beyond the 50 yard line for whole body shots---( I have been shooting from the end zone and beyond when there is enough room). I also noticed that it is a lot easier to get full body shots of little kids than it is high school kids. My keeper rate was decreased because I was chopping off a lot of legs and heads when shooting the high school game. I do have a championship youth game to shoot this afternoon, but it will be at 4:00 pm so I should have decent light for that one. It will also be on one of our city high school fields that has better lighting and I can shoot from the track around the field so I am hoping to have an easier time with this one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

quote user="Bob Williams]


One more question for Richard---what AF mode do you normally use?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

AI Servo, high speed continuous, manual single point selection with surrounding AF points. Evaluative Metering. IS off. Monopod. Kneepads.

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Thanks for the setup info--I have been using zone AF,But thesurrounding AF points seem llike a better idea---I'll give it a try.


Thanks again for all your help,

My Pleasure!


Yes, I think Zone AF is too wide of an area with all of those bodies so close together, and I think it focuses on the closest subject to the lens, sort of like automatic AF point selection. Whereas, the manual single point selection starts off with a smaller AF area which provides more precision, and the surrounding AF points will only kick in if you lose your subject from the original single point.


Good Luck with your game today and I can

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

Good Luck with your game today and I can't wait to see the photos!

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Oh, The pressure:)

I forgot to say that the images shot at the super high ISO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Lane

I never use IS for shooting football, since it is such a start and stop game, and the reason is that there is a slight delay from when I start tracking until the IS settles down. It is only about a second or two, but it is long enough for it to cause a jump in the viewfinder and mess me up for the shot. I also find that the IS, tends to counter my movements and I feel that it is fighting me at times.

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Richard, besides the messed up shot, did you see fewer in-focus keepers when using IS?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan

Richard, besides the messed up shot, did you see fewer in-focus keepers when using IS?

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Hi Alan,


I don't see any fewer keepers when using IS. I've never actually done a side by side comparison, however I have frequently turned it on by accident (when my finger hits the button accidentally) and I haven't noticed any negative affects because of it.


I think that the IS works great for continuous action, and/or handholding, or with slower shutter-speeds, especially when using focal lengths of 300mm to 600mm and up when the image in the VF may appear unstable. When IS is on, it will settle down the image which can make tracking easier. I think the IS can be useful for Soccer, Lacrosse, and possibly Hockey when you can track a player longer.


I don't think it's as useful for Football (due to frequent starting and stopping of the action, as well as starting and stopping of the IS, plus my monopod makes the image stable), Basketball, Volleyball, or Tennis, also note that the latter sports are played on smaller courts and usually require shorter focal lengths anyway. I also think that IS is useful for Airplanes, Motor-sports, Birds in Flight, or stationary birds that are far away in low light (requiring slower shutter-speeds) when using a super-telephoto.


As you are aware, there is also less of a need for IS at faster shutter-speeds since the faster SS will compensate for any camera motion, and IS won't help freeze subject motion.


Note, that it's the "first shot" with IS that messes me up (if it's not up to speed), because it's like shooting a gun and aiming at your target and then just as you pull the trigger someone bumps into you, causing the bullet to miss it's intended target.





Rich

Richard et.al:


Shot another game yesterday--and as always, I learned some more lessons.


The game was at 4:00 pm with a north/south playing field in a bowl type stadium---of course the home bleachers and press box were on the west side which cast a very dark shadow right in the middle of the field amongst this very bright yellow sunset light over the remainder of the field....and of course, I had shiny white uniforms and burnt orange uniforms to deal with.


Lessons learned:


1. Although I am a manual shooter, sometimes you just have to let the camera do the work (isn't that why we pay big bucks for them)


2. Listen to the pro's ----Rich, you rock, I changed my AF from zone to point/surrounding points and turned off IS.... my keeper rate went up 10 fold ---over 75% of my shots were in focus--These tips combined made a huge difference. Thanks.


3. I have often cursed auto ISO, but in these conditions it was a life saver, all I had to worry about is tracking the subject. I am now a fan of Auto ISO.... in the right conditions.


Here are some of the results:


7D, 500L, IS off, AF set to point/surrounding points, AE set to evaluative, started with Shutter at 2000, F4.0, ISO Auto---when my ISO started jumping up to the 2000-3000 range, I reduced my shutter speed down to 1250.


here are the results---Very little post processing in these shots


[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/15/6787.IMG_5F00_8342.jpg[/img]


[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/15/3660.IMG_5F00_8744.jpg[/img]





[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/15/4885.IMG_5F00_9262.jpg[/img]





[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/15/7673.IMG_5F00_0084.jpg[/img]





[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/15/7701.IMG_5F00_9220.jpg[/img]





[img]/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files/15/0508.IMG_5F00_9650.jpg[/img]

Love that one of no.45 swerving.


What

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ham

Love that one of no.45 swerving.


What's the orange flying thing in the one below it?
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Thanks Ham, That's a penalty flag that eventually led to that touchdown run being called back.

I had never heard or seen them until now ("soccer" is the only football to me). Seems like a great idea though!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

2. Listen to the pro's ----Rich, you rock, I changed my AF from zone to point/surrounding points and turned off IS.... my keeper rate went up 10 fold ---over 75% of my shots were in focus--These tips combined made a huge difference. Thanks.

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Hey Bob,


You're too kind, these look great, glad I could help!


You have some clear running lanes and passing lanes and you've captured some nice action. These shots certainly speak for themselves and don't require any captions. The exposures look good too, despite some harsh lighting and tough shadows!


On the 1st shot, you should consider cropping out the two players on the right since they don't really add anything to the shot and they're not looking at the play.


Good anticipation on the handoff in the 2nd shot and great eye contact! Nice capture on the pass play too!


On the 4th shot, I usually like to see the ball, but you've nicely captured the intensity and concentration of the defender, which I think works well here!


Great Job, keep up the good work!


Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Williams

That's a penalty flag that eventually led to that touchdown run being called back.

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I know those words but that makes no sense.


Give me football where you don't use your hands any day.


Great pics, the yellow sunset definitely helps the colour, even the half-shadow one turned out good, well done.

What great pics, sorry for the late hit on this thread, does that mean someone will throw another flag.


Generous coaching and expert lead blocking Rich, I love this site for these sort of tips.


Keep them, coming Bob.


Steve

@ Rich, thanks again for the advice---#2 is fixed--- After reviewing the rest of the shots I realized I forgot to mention another lesson learned:


1. If you have an opportunity for the perfect shot, the official will be in the way.


@ Dr. C


I don

Wow, I remember the days of Tri-X (yea I am that old and that crusty)