Tax returns and off camera lighting

With tax season comes camera gear. This year it will come in the form of a new laptop with workstation discrete graphics and an IPS panel display, as well as PW TT5's, a TT1 with AC3 controller, two more flashes, and light modifiers/stands. (If you didn't read the thread, my new year's resolution was to become a proficient strobist.)

I have a question about the flashes for you strobists on here (Sean, you listening?!). I have a 430ex II right now. The two flashes I have on the handy little spreadsheet I made (that already has all my tax returns spent by my count) are 580ex II's as well as the CP-E4 battery packs. Other than the loss of the battery packs and weather sealing, is there anything else that I would lose by getting two more 430's instead? I've read a little about the guide numbers, but it means almost nothing to me. How much of a power difference are we really talking here?

As far as light modifiers go, I'm looking primarily at Wescott products with Manfroto lightstands/umbrella swivels.
*Wescott 60" Optical White Satin umbrella with black cover
*Wescott Compact 43" White Satin umbrella with black cover
*Wescott Apollo Orb Speedlight Kit
*Rogue Flash Bender - Large

Anything you would suggest I get instead as far as modifiers go? Or is this a pretty sound set-up for a budding strobist?

And before someone mentions it, I'm sticking with Canon here so I can retain eTTL functionality.. as it does have it's uses.

Thanks guys!

-Rocco

I'm currently in a bar enjoying liquid refreshment; however, I will come back to this when I'm on my desktop. ;-)

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Originally Posted by Sean Setters

I'm currently in a bar enjoying liquid refreshment; however, I will come back to this when I'm on my desktop. ;-)

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HAHA! You would have an eye on the forum while drinking. Love it.

Ok, back home.

First, let's start with a couple of questions whose answers will shape my advice -- for what uses do you imagine using the gear for most (for what purposes or specific circumstances do you currently imagine yourself using the gear)? Also, what is the frequency that you believe you will be using the gear? You say you're wanting to dive in to strobism more, so will you be using this gear every day or every weekend?

Ah ha. Knew I forgot something.

I go shooting 3-4 times a week, to work on portraits, or lighting.. whatever, it will probably be the same once I dive in. Mostly a single subject (person). I've developed a love for head shots, but do some full body stuff as well. I really dig some of the cinematic-type lighting I see out there, i.e. underexposed daytime background with "properly" exposed subject. I don't do many group shots. Also, I have a buddy who owns a graphic design/ marketing company and he approached me about doing some shooting for him of both people and products.

Why is ETTL so important to you?

By the way, I'm going to bed...so I'll come back to this tomorrow.

Just so that if I want to dim a daylight scene, I can get correct exposure AND have control of my aperture via HSS as I really don't want to be going above f/11 anyway. (thinking about getting creative with my 85mm f/1.2 here, max aperture f/16.) Although, I understand that the effective power (duration) of the flash will be diminished by.. some say 2.5 stops? So the lighting will have to be closer to the subject, or pair up flashes in a modifier. (correct?)

Syl Arena was talking about his method and reasoning and he said something that resonated with me: "I’d rather have the creative freedom to control the ambient with my shutter than to accept the limitations imposed by a sync speed of 1/200."

Don't worry though, this kid is going to become very familiar with manual control.

hi Rocco,

i myself just got into off camera lighting as well. I'm no authority on the subject and the only thing I can contribute to your thread is that you might want to look at the Phottix Odin triggers. They're the ones that I got and they do "work".

james

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Originally Posted by Rocco

Other than the loss

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www.robgalbraith.com says there's about <= 0.5 stops difference between the 430EX II and 580EX II

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Originally Posted by Rocco

of the battery packs

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That can be a big one if you're shooting all day or with a LOT of full power pops. Most times it won't be a concern though.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

and weather sealing

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While on a FlexTT5 I don't think the weather sealing will apply

I currently use MiniTT1s with the AC3 controler with FlexTT5s and 430EX IIs. I used to use 580EX IIs but prefer the 430EX IIs because they play much more nicely with the PocketWizard system.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

I'm sticking with Canon here so I can retain eTTL functionality

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I like having ETTL in my back pocket but I only use it in a run and gun type situation which makes up about 2% of the time. I never use it for portraiture. I find manual to be much more controlable and predictable. Joe McNally does a pretty fine job with TTL though :-)

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Originally Posted by Rocco

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Originally Posted by Sean Setters

Why is ETTL so important to you?

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Just so that if I want to dim a daylight scene, I can get correct exposure AND have control of my aperture via HSS as I really don't want to be going above f/11 anyway

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Read this blog post by "Strobist" Q&A: Controlling the Sun When Using Flash - A Comparative Guide. It may change how you think about shallow DoF in bright sunlight.

For me, the ability to change power settings from the camera via the AC3 controller is worth the total ($$$$$) expense of the PocketWizard Flex system. If setting the power at the flash is not as big of a deal then I would highly recommend CyberSyncs from Paul C. Buff. They are moderately priced and highly reliable.

I think Mark hit most of the nails on the head. I'll also add that I chose a different way to control depth of field, and that's by upping the power level (with monolights) and using ND filters. With the monos, I have all the power I need to do anything from 1 person to a fairly large group of people, the freedom to choose any aperture I want using ND filters, and the ability to underexpose the ambient while doing so.

Using monos and an ND filter, I captured this at f/2.2 on a bright, sunlit day:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4149/5...5871f2cbf0.jpg
Samara &amp; the Willow Tree by budrowilson, on Flickr

Of course, monolights aren't for everyone; they're generally more time consuming to set up, they require pure sine wave inverters and a large battery source, and they are indeed bulkier to haul around. However, they provide me with the freedom to be as creative as I wish without being incumbered with the limitations of a speedlight's power. There are also more modifiers specifically made for monolights than for speedlights (although a plethera have emerged within the last few years).

Honestly, I'd suggest getting a couple of used Nikon SB-24s from KEH and shooting only manual for the next three months. This will allow you to [fairly cheaply] figure out whether or not you want to invest solely in shoe-mount flahses while also nailing down your manual control skills. After that, you can decide if the benefits of monolights (more power/more choice in modifiers) offset the drawbacks of increased setup time, bulkier transportation, and external battery requirements.

As far as the Westcott products go, they all look fine. That said, I just purchased an off-brand Orb the other day. I'm sure the build quality won't be as good as Westcott's, but for as many times as I think I'll use it, I'm sure it'll be fine--especially considering the price. Now I just have to wait about a month for it to arrive from China...

Also, you may want to look at smaller light modifiers too. When you start down the strobist journey, there's a tendency to go as big as you can with your light modifiers (here's proof of that). However, when it comes to small flashes, I often grab my 15" collapsible softbox. It can be fairly soft depending on how close it is to the subject, but it's more often just a bit punchier--and it's a nice change from the creamy soft gradients afforded us by larger modifiers. There are also plenty of other sizes and cheaper versions on Ebay.

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Originally Posted by Sean Setters

Also, you may want to look at smaller light modifiers too. When you start down the strobist journey, there's a tendency to go as big as you can with your light modifiers (here's proof of that). However, when it comes to small flashes, I often grab my 15" collapsible softbox. It can be fairly soft depending on how close it is to the subject, but it's more often just a bit punchier--and it's a nice change from the creamy soft gradients afforded us by larger modifiers. There are also plenty of other sizes and cheaper versions on Ebay.

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Sean

I got a good laugh out of your hat set up. Being a novice myself I knew not to make that mistake. I bought a 16 x 22 and it has been a christmas decoration in the the dining room and hasn't been taken down yet. The wife hasn't said anything about it yet, as a married man I can attest that you should start small. It is easier to get the big stuff moved in later. Of course you can see my reasoning was based on what I knew I could get away with, not what would work best.

Rick

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Originally Posted by HDNitehawk

Sean

Of course you can see my reasoning was based on what I knew I could get away with, not what would work best.

Rick

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I didn't know what I could get away with; hence the ex-fiancée. :-)

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Originally Posted by Sean Setters

Of course, monolights aren't for everyone; they're generally more time consuming to set up, they require pure sine wave inverters and a large battery source, and they are indeed bulkier to haul around. However, they provide me with the freedom to be as creative as I wish without being incumbered with the limitations of a speedlight's power. There are also more modifiers specifically made for monolights than for speedlights (although a plethera have emerged within the last few years).

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For now, that's a big part of the appeal of going speedlites, for me. Mobility. I haven't talked anyone into being my very own "voice activated lightstands", so for me light in a small package is very useful.

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Originally Posted by Sean Setters

Also, you may want to look at smaller light modifiers too. When you start down the strobist journey, there's a tendency to go as big as you can with your light modifiers (here's proof of that). However, when it comes to small flashes, I often grab my 15" collapsible softbox. It can be fairly soft depending on how close it is to the subject, but it's more often just a bit punchier--and it's a nice change from the creamy soft gradients afforded us by larger modifiers. There are also plenty of other sizes and cheaper versions on Ebay.

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HAHA! That thing is INSANE Sean. Any example photos taken with it? Also, any recommendations as far as smaller modifiers go? Was looking at possibly a strip light or beauty dish? I saw Wescott also makes a 28" Apollo softbox, but like their other stuff you have to buy the kit and that includes a stand, making it more expensive.

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Originally Posted by Mark Elberson

www.robgalbraith.com says there's about <= 0.5 stops difference between the 430EX II and 580EX II

Read this blog post by "Strobist" Q&A: Controlling the Sun When Using Flash - A Comparative Guide. It may change how you think about shallow DoF in bright sunlight.

For me, the ability to change power settings from the camera via the AC3 controller is worth the total ($$$$$) expense of the PocketWizard Flex system. If setting the power at the flash is not as big of a deal then I would highly recommend CyberSyncs from Paul C. Buff. They are moderately priced and highly reliable.

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Mark, Thanks for the reply. So are you using speedlites still, then? Any reason why you haven't gone to mono lights or studio strobes?

The PW Flex system seems like it's totally worth it to me, that purchase I'm completely set on. Also, based on that link, I think I'm set on the 430's now. Maybe some eneloop batteries (any other cheaper/better suggestions there?)

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Originally Posted by Rocco

Mark, Thanks for the reply. So are you using speedlites still, then? Any reason why you haven't gone to mono lights or studio strobes?

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I use both. I have a studio in my home where I use Paul C. Buff Einstein E640 Flash Units. On location I use either or depending on the situation. I tend to shoot groups of people more often so lately I've been lugging around my Einsteins. I have one Vagabond Mini which makes for a relatively light weight kit for location shooting. As location work justifies it, I will add another Vagabond Mini and relegate my Speedlites to quick indoor setups.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

The PW Flex system seems like it's totally worth it to me, that purchase I'm completely set on. Also, based on that link, I think I'm set on the 430's now. Maybe some eneloop batteries (any other cheaper/better suggestions there?)

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The only time I miss my 580s is when the flash is on camera. The 580s rotate in more directions. Other than that I actually prefer the 430s. They are small, light weight, compact and pack a pretty good punch. They are very versatile and you can almost buy two of them for the price of one 580!

And yes, I would definitely pick up some eneloop or similar batteries. I think you should have at least 8 batteries per flash so that you can always reload on the fly.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

HAHA! That thing is INSANE Sean. Any example photos taken with it? Also, any recommendations as far as smaller modifiers go? Was looking at possibly a strip light or beauty dish? I saw Wescott also makes a 28" Apollo softbox, but like their other stuff you have to buy the kit and that includes a stand, making it more expensive.

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Examples of pics taken with the large softbox:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
Image 4

The way Westcott assembles and labels their packages is confusing. If you wanted the 28" Westcott Apollo, you'd get this set (it's the same price as buying the Apollo alone, but you get an umbrella swivel as well).

As far as smaller modifiers go, I already suggested something along the lines of the 15" collapsible softbox I have. However, other things to consider might be:

16" Beauty Dish
Lumiquest Softbox LTP
Small umbrella (sometimes I use a 25" in crowded places)

When it comes to stripboxes, I use them quite regularly now that I have them; for the longest time, however, I did without them just fine. I have no experience with ones designed specifically for speedlights. You probably couldn't go wrong with the new Westcott versions, but I'd suggest waiting until you find yourself missing the advantages of a stripbox before investing in them. Until then, you can use bare, umbrella, or softboxed rim.

So, I've been thinking on this pretty much everyday since I posted this.. I realised that I never really gave monoblocks any real consideration. I suppose I was heavily influenced by McNally's book, and somehow I was thinking that the speedlite method was a natural step before going with studio strobes.. but then I started taking a harder look at the total cost of everything I wanted and started looking into monoblocks.

I now think I'm getting strobes. Specifically PCB Einsteins. I can get two of those with the vagabond mini battery packs, the 86inch parabolic umbrella, the 64inch parabolic umbrella, the large foldable softbox, the white 22inch beauty dish with grid (30 degree), two light stands, the white fabric covers for the umbrellas, and the TT1, AC3, and two MC2 controllers all for a few hundred more than I was looking to spend. And i'd still have the option of getting a TT5 for my 430 if I felt like I needed another light.

+1 on the Einstein. I have one with some modifiers (48" gridded octabox, HOBD, 8.5" reflector with grids), and a PowerMC2. I'll likely get a Vagabond Mini-Li soon.

I also have a pair of 430s with TT5s, and 24" Lastolite Ezyboxes for them.

Just to spend more of your money, I didn't see backdrops and a stand for them on your list.

--John

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

+1 on the Einstein. I have one with some modifiers (48" gridded octabox, HOBD, 8.5" reflector with grids), and a PowerMC2. I'll likely get a Vagabond Mini-Li soon.

I also have a pair of 430s with TT5s, and 24" Lastolite Ezyboxes for them.

Just to spend more of your money, I didn't see backdrops and a stand for them on your list.

--John

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..Eff. heh. Any recommendations there John? I look around.. and like everything photography related I see tons that are super cheap, Name brand stuff that's super expensive.. and a few thousand kits in between.

Can't see my self wanting more than white seamless or black vellum at first.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

Any recommendations there John? I look around.. and like everything photography related I see tons that are super cheap, Name brand stuff that's super expensive.. and a few thousand kits in between.

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I went with muslin backdrops from Backdrop Alley - $55-80 each IIRC, from B&H. I use a Manfrotto background stand, but the Impact one seems well-reviewed, too.