Should I or shouldn't I??

Hi All -

I have a dilemma (once again) that I hope I can get some advice on. Since I have been unemployed for seven months now and things are really looking pretty grim, an old friend of mine has made me an offer. He is willing to pay to have a number of my photos printed on canvas wraps, etc. for me to display at upcoming local outdoor art fairs, etc. to help get me to launch a photography career. I told him I don't want him to do something like this for me but he said it would be a business investment for him.

I don't know if I should do this! Since I started photography as a hobby, I have only printed and sold one canvas wrap. What if he pays to have all these different items printed & done up and they don't sell! And if (and that's a big IF) any of them do, what percentage of the profits would be a fair amount to give him for doing all of this for me? It will take a large amount of prints to fill some of the display tents that I have seen other artists fill! This would have to be him fronting the entire thing because heck I don't have the cash to get one 5 x 7 printed! In fact, I just posted 4 lenses for sale last night including my tele's!

I don't know, I think I should pass on this extremely generous offer ...but then I have this little voice telling me I really don't have a choice at this point since I'm not finding an office position! Geez, now I'm hearing little voices ...LOL!

Denise

Your friend evidently sees something in you and your skills that he wants to be more invested in. I admire your work tremendously and think you have great talent, as well.

I doubt your friend would have made the offer if he did not see an opportunity for BOTH of you. Don't let the "little voices" drive you crazy or hold you back.

If the friendship is strong, then go for it.

This may sound a little odd, but if your friend is a genuine good person, I highly recommend that you do it. My only hesitation is that I think you should just do an assessment of the person themselves and their motivations. If that is all good and there are no strings attached (other than the obvious repayment). Do it. A quick guess, but this is likely a very good person that can afford to put some "good out there." Let them put good out there and you never know what is going to come back around.

Go for it.
If I had a friend like that and she was willing to back me like that I would jump at it. My wife would be a little bit more cautious and tell to find out what she wanted first. I would tell her not to worry and I would handle it. LoL.
This appears a generous offer Denise and you should just ask them what they want in return from potential sales. You definitely have the talent and the portfolio to cover such an investment by a friend. All you need is a "break."
And this appears to be it.
Even with friends it is best to record on paper what liabilities each party are up for initially and the liabilities and benefits from subsequent sales.
On a personal level, this is something that was probably not on your radar and the benefit from exposure and marketing for your art will be a priceless investment in your future.
It may be best to limit the input and investment of your friend to this one showing and see how it goes. No loose ends at the conclusion, perhaps handover whatever are an appropriate amount of prints that do not sell to him to cover his expenses.
A lot of things to consider, but definitely a worthwhile endeavour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kayaker72

This may sound a little odd, but if your friend is a genuine good person, I highly recommend that you do it. My only hesitation is that I think you should just do an assessment of the person themselves and their motivations. If that is all good and there are no strings attached (other than the obvious repayment). Do it. A quick guess, but this is likely a very good person that can afford to put some "good out there." Let them put good out there and you never know what is going to come back around.

---

No, there are definitely no strings attached! He was my boss for 18 yrs. and a very dear friend! I quit the company we worked for about 6 yrs. ago and recently got laid off from the company I went to work for afterwards. Since the two companies did business together, we just always stayed in touch and he would call every now and then to see how I am doing or to buy me lunch. He is extremely well set financially and I am confident that this is just someone trying to help a friend out without making it look like charity. I think he is also trying to find a way to build my confidence back in me. At my age when you get laid off and can't find work, it gets to be about alot more than just the job that's lost.

Another point that I was just thinking about though ...it isn't good to mix business with friendship anyway.

Another little voice here, YES! Your images have been in popular photography:), and we all have commented on them. They are pro quality. They will sell, have faith. I am not sure what is a fair %age:confused:. I have never done this myself. Hope someone else here can advise on that.
You will need to post a photo of the display tent with all of your work on display.:cool: We will be very interested to see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ddt0725

I just posted 4 lenses for sale last night including my tele's!



Denise

---

Must not have been posted here. I have not seen you post.

Ahhhh, C'mon Denise-----Just Do It!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clemmb

Must not have been posted here. I have not seen you post.

---

No, I posted them on FM. I figured most everyone here either owns them already or has the super or the new and improved versions!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clemmb

Another little voice here, YES! Your images have been in popular photography:), and we all have commented on them. They are pro quality. They will sell, have faith. I am not sure what is a fair %age:confused:. I have never done this myself. Hope someone else here can advise on that.
You will need to post a photo of the display tent with all of your work on display.:cool: We will be very interested to see.

---

Thanks, Mark! Lots to think about!

Here's my opinion- yes! You take amazing shots and I'm sure it'd be a good choice/option to take your photography to the next level. Don't miss the opportunity! So glad that you have such a nice friend to have your back!

Best wishes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bob williams

Ahhhh, C'mon Denise-----Just Do It!!!!

---

We will probably meet next week for lunch and discuss it further but I honestly think I'm really out of my league on this.

Also, most of my photos on zenfolio only have a couple $ markup. I can't imagine me selling anything for much more than what it costs to print it, especially when you get into the price range of the larger wraps, etc.

What if you sold the prints to him at a fair price and he just resells them for a higher percentage. With him trying to sell pics for you, you'll both have to agree on prices and discounts if something isn't moving fast enough. He buys them outright, he can shop them around and sell them for whatever he wants. You'd prolly need an agreement to not sell those prints to anyone else while he is doing business though. Hope some of that made sense.

It is an odd part of photography marketing, but the bigger the print the more willing people are to call it art, pay more for it, and proudly hang it on their walls.

Having seen some of what you have posted here, this isn't the time to be shy about your work. It is definitely good enough.

Even though it is a friend's offer, it would be a good idea to write up some form of agreement between yourselves. Who knows, it is possible for a partnership with one taking the photos and the other putting in the office and marketing time. Have run across some who work it this way when they open their own store front.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andnowimbroke

What if you sold the prints to him at a fair price and he just resells them for a higher percentage. With him trying to sell pics for you, you'll both have to agree on prices and discounts if something isn't moving fast enough. He buys them outright, he can shop them around and sell them for whatever he wants. You'd prolly need an agreement to not sell those prints to anyone else while he is doing business though. Hope some of that made sense.

---

Thanks for the idea but he works about 65+ hrs. a week, don't think he wants to sell them for me in his spare time. What your saying would work if he had the time to invest along with the money.

Denise,
I'll try to give you a lesson I learned years ago as a child. My father was in the computer business back in the 1970's (yeah back then). Believe it or not the company he worked for went belly up and he was out of a job. My mother did not work as she was a stay at home mom with four young boys. My father could not get a job at the time and decided to to odd jobs for anybody that would hire him. Within a year he started a "real" business and began to actually earn a decent living. The business grew over the years and my parents are now enjoying a comfortable retiremet.

My point is that my father took a chance out of desperation and ended up finding a niche business and being quite successful. If you don't give it a chance, you will always wonder what might have been. I urge you to give it a shot, some income is better than none!

My only concern was if this friend would be offering too much, and potentially putting themselves in financial trouble should they lose their job, etc at the wrong time. Since you've stated that's not the case, it can't hurt to go for it as long as your both agree on the financial side of things.

You've got a set of fixed costs that your friend will incur, from printing, to whatever fee the site has where you'll do your showing. It may be a fixed fee for space, or a percentage of sales, or some combination of both.

You'll probably feel guilty while your friend has not recouped their losses/investment. You may suggest they take the majority of whatever revenue there is until they've recovered their costs (80% - 100%). There's a range there because your friend may also feel guilty taking all your revenue for your art, and wants to ensure you see atleast some revenue, even before they break even, so you're not completely discouraged. If this friend really is super wealthy, and the upfront costs are nothing to them, perhaps they'll suggest something more along the lines of 50-50%. Maybe they'll even suggest you take nearly everything. I'm mainly pointing out that the split isn't necessarily a fixed amount, but may vary until the costs are recovered.

Once you've recovered the initial investment, you'll want another set of percentages for some sort of fair split with your friend. I have no idea what that split may be. Maybe they'll just be happy having broken even and helped a friend, and you'll see 100% at that point. Having used the word 'investment' though, perhaps they'd like a cut.

To avoid potential fights, should you get extremely lucky, you may also want to agree upon a third split. There is a chance that someone may not buy a print you brought to this showing, but asks about other prints. Perhaps whoever it is acquires art for, say, a hotel chain. They order 100 copies of your ducks at sunset picture at 30"x20". Maybe it becomes one of the stock IKEA prints and they want rights to the image rather than buying prints. Who knows. This sale is a direct result of your friends investment, by bringing you exposure at the showing. But it's both a much bigger sale, and a sale for which he hasn't fronted your printing costs. I'd expect you to walk away with the lions share of a deal like this.

Thank you so much everyone for the words of encouragement! I really have to think this out and I think so does he!

VERY COOL! That is exciting! You clearly have photographic talent. On top of that, I have always admired people who somehow find ways to make money, outside of the unimaginative 9-5 groove, that most people wouldn't even see. Best of luck!!

And if it goes to IKEA, insist that the name translates pleasantly into English, and not something malphonic like "Kraamp" or whatever my last IKEA desk or bookshelf was called!:p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scott Stephen

And if it goes to IKEA, insist that the name translates pleasantly into English, and not something malphonic like "Kraamp" or whatever my last IKEA desk or bookshelf was called!:p

---

LOL! I will most definitely make sure of that!

Quote:

---

I told him I don't want him to do something like this for me but he said it would be a business investment for him.

---

From what you have said, I think this is his way of making his help easy to accept.

Quote:

---

What if he pays to have all these different items printed & done up and they don't sell!

---

Ask him the question. See if he is willing to bear that risk. If I had this deal with a friend I would work twice as hard to make it work. It may be hard to sell prints, or it may not, but you never know.

Quote:

---

And if (and that's a big IF) any of them do, what percentage of the profits would be a fair amount to give him for doing all of this for me?

---

The two of you need to agree on this before you start. I would think if it were a real investment he would want half. I think you will find out how much of the offer is friendship and how much is business from the response you get from him on this one.

Quote:

---

I don't know if I should do this! Since I started photography as a hobby

---

This is exactly why you should do it. Think of it this way, photography is still a hobby. You have just extended your hobby to another level. If you work all day selling prints, make enough to pay your friend back and then make 75 cents an hour for your time, thats just a little bonus back from a hobby you enjoy. You go home with the satisfaction that the prints you sold are on someones wall now. If you really make anything it is a big bonus.

Last bit of advice. He is a friend, you are right that business relationships destroy friendships. Talk this over in detail with him, and make sure you will be comfortable with it. A friend that would help you like this, is not a friendsip that you would want to destroy over a bad deal.

+1 on yes go for it

Denise,

I still think you should go for it. I would work up a couple of different ideas as to what this could look like, associated budgets and present them to your friend. Two quick thoughts:

One way to minimize up front investment is "Go High End": Don't have 50 prints of the same photo in different sizes. Make things seem more exclusive. Pick 20 of your favorite prints. Print each only once or twice (or maybe once per size). But create a sense of exclusivity, that if they don't buy it it now it could be gone. Pick your most "artsie" prints, and pick printing styles with some flair. In other words, sell art, not pictures. BTW, art is expensive. I wouldn't be thinking "%" mark ups, I would be thinking 2-3x the cost mark ups.

The other thought would be to have a service associated with your booth. At least in New England, lots of mother/daughters, friends go to these fairs..it is often an "event". Have a mini studio set up where you could take a picture of their group and have the prints delivered. Capture their moment. If you are worried about charging for the service, set it up where you have a laptop there and they only be charged if they like the photo and order prints/jpg file.

Just some thoughts...but it sounds like a good opportunity to me.

Good luck,
Brant

Denise; I think Brant described a good model for you. Sell art not pictures.

Hi Denise, limited numbers and higher prices work very well for established photographers and may be a way to recoup the expense of your firends investment.
I went to an exhibition of photos by Nick Brandt yesterday http://www.nickbrandt.com/ for ten years he has been going to Africa and has 94 shots to his credit.

The eighth and last copy of this print http://www.nickbrandt.com/portfolio....&nS=0&i=176193 just sold for $150 000, so limited quantities and high prices are working well for him.

Go for it, they all started somewhere. You have artistic talent and deserve a break, do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve U

Hi Denise, limited numbers and higher prices work very well for established photographers and may be a way to recoup the expense of your firends investment.
I went to an exhibition of photos by Nick Brandt yesterday http://www.nickbrandt.com/ for ten years he has been going to Africa and has 94 shots to his credit.

The eighth and last copy of this print http://www.nickbrandt.com/portfolio....&nS=0&i=176193 just sold for $150 000, so limited quantities and high prices are working well for him.

---

$150,000 WOW! His work is fantastic though so I can see why they would go for such high prices!

Work out the details with your friend. If you believe your friendship will survive this arrangement (and I see no reason it wouldn't), then go for it. You're at the party, the music is playing, you have a partner waiting, all you have to do is dance. Don't hold yourself back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlriii13

Don't hold yourself back.

---

Ditto :o

hi Denise,

I'd say you go for it. It may be that big break you need to turn PRO. It's like you said, if he's a TRUE friend, there should not be any problems if things don't work out. remember also that he was the one who offered to do this for you and NOT the other way around. So with this in mind I really don't see any reason why it should strain your friendship if things don't work out.

james