Questions about Monolights:

Over the past few months I have been getting interested in monolight strobes. Although I have done quite a bit of reading and spec comparison, I find myself confused more often than not. To begin with, I started out looking at output of various models and comparing them to my speed lights, specifically my 580 exII. So now, I have a few questions, but first some background info:

I am most interested in outdoor use. Though none of the strobes I have looked at have the fast flash durations I need for Hummingbird Photography, I am thinking they may be more useful (powerful) for other outdoor applications--i.e. being able to use an umbrella/beauty dish etc without having it three feet from my subject/s-----Most of my subjects would be birds, pets, wildlife and occasional people photos----note, I don't mind running a long cord for power or even using a generator if neccessary.

1. The 580 ex II has a guide number of 190 when set to 105mm, this seems to be about the same output as a 400 watt/sec monolight----but there are large variances in the guide numbers between different brands and different models of monolights when they are all advertising 400 Watt/s----What am I missing?, Is there a better way to judge power output for monolights.

2. The less expensive monolights like Impact and Sunpak seem to offer similar features as the more expensive lights---so what's the catch----what should I look out for in the less expensive lights---or--what should I be willing to pay for in the more expensive lights?

3. Finally, what are some good/reputable brand names when talking monolights, but ones that won't break the bank?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Bob

I cannot answer most of your questions but I am pretty sure they will not have a short enough flash duration for your hummingbird shots...I have done some reading on these in the past.

I will try to remember to respond when I get home. Responding at length on my phone just doesn't seem enjoyable. ;-)

No, I didn' t plan on using them for H-Birds, Just other outdoor stuff

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Originally Posted by Sean Setters

I will try to remember to respond when I get home. Responding at length on my phone just doesn't seem enjoyable. ;-)

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LOL, No I wouldn't think so, Thanks Sean

I think Paul Buff has the flash duration listed on his white lightnings. Something like 1/300, 1/600, and 1/1100 at full power. When talking about Mr. Buff and his stuff, they usually want to upgrade to at least the next model though. I do remember that junk lights aren't consistent in rated white balance.. or output for that matter.

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I do remember that junk lights aren't consistent in rated white balance.. or output for that matter.

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That's what I was noticing in the user reviews of some of the less expensive lights

My replies:

1) I wouldn't say that a 580EX II is as powerful as a 400 watt monolight. I use 600 watt monolights all the time (at usually 1/2 power or less), and my 580EX's output doesn't come that close.

2) There are certainly cheap monos, but you don't usually get things like a) color consistency, b) wide assortment of modifiers (although there are speed rings), c) ruggedness, or d) great customer service. While Paul C. Buff's monos before the Einstein suffer a bit from color consistency issues, it isn't terrible. I've owned an Ultra 600, Ultrazap 1600s, an X2400 and an X1600. The very slight color variations (which most of the time go unnoticed) have never mattered to me (and I'm usually using 2-3 monos per shoot).

3) For me, I love Paul C. Buff monolights. In fact, I have to pay more when buying from them because their facility is in TN (so I have to pay sales tax). That has never stopped me. For the money you pay, in my opinion, you simply can't get better products.

+1 on the PCB Einstein - have one, love it, considering a second (and one of Mark's PowerMC2s if I decide to get one, assuming one is available).

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

+1 on the PCB Einstein - have one, love it, considering a second (and one of Mark's PowerMC2s if I decide to get one, assuming one is available).

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Have four and love them! I would not hesitate to own an AlienBee or a White Lightning either though. The fluctuations in Kelvin in the AlienBee line are quoted to be around 200 degrees. That's really not that big of a deal. The spec on the Einstein is about 50 degrees.

David Hobby over at www.strobist.com estimates the 580EX to be at around 60 watt seconds. The reason why the 580 has a guide number of 190 is because it's measured at its tightest zoom of 105mm. The standard reflector on an AlienBee has a spread of about 80 degrees which is probably much closer to 24mm of zoom on a 580. The fastest duration on an Einstein though is 1/13,000 which can easily be beat by a 580. 1/13,000 isn't too shabby though :-)

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Originally Posted by Mark Elberson

Have four and love them! I would not hesitate to own an AlienBee or a White Lightning either though. The fluctuations in Kelvin in the AlienBee line are quoted to be around 200 degrees. That's really not that big of a deal. The spec on the Einstein is about 50 degrees.

David Hobby over at www.strobist.com estimates the 580EX to be at around 60 watt seconds. The reason why the 580 has a guide number of 190 is because it's measured at its tightest zoom of 105mm. The standard reflector on an AlienBee has a spread of about 80 degrees which is probably much closer to 24mm of zoom on a 580. The fastest duration on an Einstein though is 1/13,000 which can easily be beat by a 580. 1/13,000 isn't too shabby though :-)

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Thanks Mark, That explains a lot

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Originally Posted by Sean Setters

For me, I love Paul C. Buff monolights. In fact, I have to pay more when buying from them because their facility is in TN (so I have to pay sales tax). That has never stopped me. For the money you pay, in my opinion, you simply can't get better products.

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I checked the price and both th Einstein and Alien Bees and they seem to be very reasonably priced for what your getting---That, along with thier appearant reputation and satisfaction seems to make both a pretty good deal.

Thanks Sean.

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Originally Posted by Mark Elberson

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David Hobby over at www.strobist.com estimates the 580EX to be at around 60 watt seconds. The reason why the 580 has a guide number of 190 is because it's measured at its tightest zoom of 105mm. The standard reflector on an AlienBee has a spread of about 80 degrees which is probably much closer to 24mm of zoom on a 580. The fastest duration on an Einstein though is 1/13,000 which can easily be beat by a 580. 1/13,000 isn't too shabby though :-)

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As I said before, Thanks Mark. Also, after trying to learn some more about how to compare light output of different units, I ran across this article on the PCB website. It was very informative, but still left me wondering how a newby is to determine the "best tool for the job" when the various power ratings and other specs are mostly marketing hype. Well, word of mouth and satisfaction of current users usually leads me in a good direction, so I will stick to that for the moment; at least until someone mandates a rationale standard that must be used by all manufacturers. Even so, This was a good read for anyone that uses or is planning to use monolights or powerpack lights.

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Originally Posted by bob williams

As I said before, Thanks Mark. Also, after trying to learn some more about how to compare light output of different units, I ran across this article on the PCB website. It was very informative, but still left me wondering how a newby is to determine the "best tool for the job" when the various power ratings and other specs are mostly marketing hype. Well, word of mouth and satisfaction of current users usually leads me in a good direction, so I will stick to that for the moment; at least until someone mandates a rationale standard that must be used by all manufacturers. Even so, This was a good read for anyone that uses or is planning to use monolights or powerpack lights.

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I totally agree Bob. Nikon measures their GN at 35mm (I think) so it would be hard to compare them to Canon. People's tests show them to be fairly comparable though. In duration alone Speedlites will almost always win but it's all about the right tool for the job.

Hello, does anyone have experience with the portable power supply that Paul Bluff offers? It's the Vagabond. Lithium batteries. It looks like it would do a good job for powering a strobe when out in the wilderness.

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Originally Posted by shutterdown

Hello, does anyone have experience with the portable power supply that Paul Bluff offers? It's the Vagabond. Lithium batteries. It looks like it would do a good job for powering a strobe when out in the wilderness.

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Yes, I have two of them and I think they are fantastic. You can get a lot of pops out of a single charge and at 1/2 power and below the recycle times are excellent.

I wish I could plug a Speedlite into one.

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Originally Posted by Mark Elberson

Yes, I have two of them and I think they are fantastic. You can get a lot of pops out of a single charge and at 1/2 power and below the recycle times are excellent.

I wish I could plug a Speedlite into one.

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Thanks, Mark. Based on your experience, I ordered one (for now) and an extra battery. I'm really pumped to try this!

My next question is to Sean. Sean, it looks as if you've done a lot of outdoor portraiture. You said you use 2-3 monolights per shoot. I have used a Speedlite for fill flash, but what would you recommend for a single mono light, as an alternative to multiple lights? A beauty dish, as Bob is suggesting? A small soft box? I would like to stick to one light, just to use as a fill flash, to remove shadows and give a little catch-light in the eyes. I have several Pocket Wizards (ETTL types). I would use those to trigger the light. Thanks a lot.

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Originally Posted by shutterdown

Thanks, Mark. Based on your experience, I ordered one (for now) and an extra battery. I'm really pumped to try this!

My next question is to Sean. Sean, it looks as if you've done a lot of outdoor portraiture. You said you use 2-3 monolights per shoot. I have used a Speedlite for fill flash, but what would you recommend for a single mono light, as an alternative to multiple lights? A beauty dish, as Bob is suggesting? A small soft box? I would like to stick to one light, just to use as a fill flash, to remove shadows and give a little catch-light in the eyes. I have several Pocket Wizards (ETTL types). I would use those to trigger the light. Thanks a lot.

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Hmm...if I had to pick one modifier, eh? That's actually kind of tough. However, if you're indeed just wanting to fill in shadows (and you're only using one monolight), I'd suggest an extreme silver 63" PLM (for its effiency) coupled with the front diffusion cover. That is a fantastic modifier for a very reasonable price. The only problem is you'll want some sandbags to weigh it down as it will become a wind sail under relaitvely light winds.

And when you need more pop than the PLM with the diffusion cover can give you, you can take the cover off and use the PLM bare. However, I'd suggest investing in some gels to warm up the light just a bit as (personally speaking) I'm not a fan of the cool color-toned light coming from an unmodified Extreme Silver plm.

I have a very large softbox that rarely gets used because I purchased the 63" Extreme Silver PLM with a diffusion cover. It's easy to set up, is quite efficient, and just provides great results.

+1

+10 on sandbags 😊

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Originally Posted by Mark Elberson

+10 on sandbags

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Sean, yes, indeed, that would likely be a sail. I'm imagining Mary Poppins right now. ;)

Mark, are those the number of sandbags I'll need, or should I use more?? :D

You know, there are good reasons why I have 3 Vagabond II's at my disposal rather than the new Vagabond Lithium Minis.

1) VB IIs give you more pops per charge.
2) VB IIs recycle faster (especially when plugging in multiple monos into the same inverter).
3) The weight of the VB II helps keep a lightstand in place. If I'm going to have to carry around extra weight, why not let the weight do double-duty in its usefulness?

Food for thought.

This was just sent to me by a friend. It looks interesting!

http://ftxlightingtools.com/FTXLight...22bracket.html

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Originally Posted by shutterdown

This was just sent to me by a friend. It looks interesting!

http://ftxlightingtools.com/FTXLight...22bracket.html

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Just a little comment about this product or any beauty dish that would use a speedlight; a beauty dish really needs a bare bulb protruding through the opening to have the desire effects of a beauty dish.

With a beauty dish the center baffle blocks the direct light (not reflect) and the light of the bare tube shoots outward and bounces off the side and back so the hottest light is coming from the perimeter with softer light coming from the back witch makes for very contrasty light.

Anytime you use a speed light, the light never directly hits the perimeter. There really isn't a efficient way to get a bare bulb effect. Maybe with a Stofen on and set to protrude but you lose a lot of power since the speedlight light is still really shooting forward.

I'd suggest instead of spending $180 on that bracket, I'd suggest a AB400 (or better if budget allows) and PCB Beauty dish. It will cost $100 or so more but it is real beauty dish light. Plus it comes with diffuser and with that it is essentially like having a 22" round soft box too.

If you really look at the dynamics of what is happening with a beauty dish w/speedlight, it becomes a really crippled flash in a small umbrella. The hottest light is coming straight off from the back with some residual bouncing off the sides just as an umbrella would. So you could really save money and buy a 28" umbrella and have way more efficient use and better quality of light.

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Originally Posted by Keith B

I'd suggest instead of spending $180 on that bracket, I'd suggest a AB400 (or better if budget allows) and PCB Beauty dish. It will cost $100 or so more but it is real beauty dish light. Plus it comes with diffuser and with that it is essentially like having a 22" round soft box too.

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Good advice. Actually, I wasn't really considering this as an option, since the result would be just as you said. Sort of like poking a flashlight through a hole, and expecting it to spread the light in all directions.

An on-camera speedlite would do just as well.

It was just interesting that someone sat down, and dreamed this thing up.

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Originally Posted by shutterdown

Good advice. Actually, I wasn't really considering this as an option, since the result would be just as you said. Sort of like poking a flashlight through a hole, and expecting it to spread the light in all directions.

An on-camera speedlite would do just as well.

It was just interesting that someone sat down, and dreamed this thing up.

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Yeah I'm not picking on the devise, I'm all about free enterprise and ingenuity but just want to let those less knowledgeable about lighting not to expect beauty dish quality light.

On this board a while back there was a DIY style beauty dish that was getting some talk. It essentially did the same thing. It was made from a large plastic potting bowl with a whole in the bottom. Some really liked the light from it, which is fine, it just doesn't replicate beauty dish lighting.

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Originally Posted by Keith B

On this board a while back there was a DIY style beauty dish that was getting some talk. It essentially did the same thing. It was made from a large plastic potting bowl with a whole in the bottom. Some really liked the light from it, which is fine, it just doesn't replicate beauty dish lighting.

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I own a 14" Titanium colored Lumodi (made for speedlights), a 19" silver generic Ebay BD (with grids), 22" PCB HOBD, and a 22" Mola Demi (white, with stacked P.A.D. and opal glass) with White Lightning/Alienbees mounts. All of them can provide beautiful and interesting light in the right hands. They're all a bit different, yes...but to say one is really that much better than the others, I can't. Here's how I use them:

1) Right now, my default BD is the Mola Demi. I prefer its white finish most of the time. It seems to light subjects very well when used properly. It is very expensive, though.

2) I use the HOBD when I have to place the light source farther away from the subject and I'm trying to kill the ambient. Being silver, and shaped the way it is, it is a very efficient modifier. I will typically add a bit of a warming gel to the light in order to counter-act the cool colortone resulting from the silver reflective surface.

3) I use the 19" Ebay dish when I really want to control the light. First of all, it's a bit smaller--but it also came with two different grids. Those grids are great for limiting spill. Even though the dish is silver, I don't feel the light coming off of it is quite as cool in color tone as the HOBD's. I still usually throw in 1/8 - 1/4 CTS (or CTO).

4) I use the Lumodi if I'm strictly using speedlights. Many times this happens because of a limited working space. The titanium finish is warm in color and doesn't require any gelling. In fact, it can be a bit too warm under some circumstances requiring an offsetting CTB gel on the strobe. Overall, I like this modifier in closed, tight quarters.

I wouldn't hesitate to pull any of the modifiers out given the circumstances for which they are [in my mind] ideally used.

Truth be told, there is so much variation in beauty dish designs for studio lights (from Profoto, Mola, Dynalite, Hensel, Broncolor, Speedotron), as well as variations in finishes (white, soft silver, mirrored), as well as variations in center reflectors, that it's difficult for us to clearly define what the "classic" beauty dish output should look like. Even dishes that look very similar may be designed so that the flash tube is placed further in or out of the dish and thus providing a noticably different look.

At the end of the day, you just have to do some research, find something you think you'll like using, buy it, and try it out for yourself. There is no wrong light modifier (I've used bedsheets, walls, index cards, 4'x6' softboxes, 5 different "beauty dishes", PLMs, octaboxes, stripboxes, 7" reflectors, gels, etc...)--but each modifier has characteristics that make it useful (providing pleasing results) under specific situations.

Depending on how close the modifier (beauty dish) is from the subject is what really makes the difference. In the sense of shooting head shots for hair and make-up ads a beauty dish is used in pretty close proximity. Usually you try to have a modifier slight larger than the subject within respect of distance. Like a 22" is popular for headshots because at two to three feet away it is a pretty good ration of size of subject to light source. This is where the characteristics or lack there of will shine through. If you back way off you essential start to use it like a large reflector, the light flattens out the shadows get defined and won't really notice the distinction. Just like a the inverse square rule, if you multiply the distance between light and subject by 2 you have to increase the power by 4, you can have a large light source but as you move it farther a away, it is smaller in relation to the subject. Like the sun is really the largest light source, but because it is so far away it is actually a very bright and tiny light source there for the light it cast is flat and the shadows are very hard edged and defined. The finish can affect white balance but is more for a desired specular quality. Silver will be more specular while white is less specular and is more flattering for less than perfect skin.

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Originally Posted by Keith B

Like the sun is really the largest light source, but because it is so far away it is actually a very bright and tiny light source there for the light it cast is flat and the shadows are very hard edged and defined.

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That's why I consider clouds to be the perfect soft box! ;)