6D Announced (sort of)

Edit, it's official: http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_...01e0248065d8c4
(but i can't change the title).
Turns out there's no touchscreen (at least it wasn't mentioned in the press release, you'd think they would if there was one), but most of the rest of the specs look right.
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/profes...Specifications

Well, it's the 17th for me, and it's being announced on the 17th.
CR says Adorama accidentally let it get preordered yesterday.

So, with 20MP sensor (completely new, so must be on a cheap process, I wonder how good it is?), 11pt AF with f/2.8 centre cross (is this any better than the 5D2?), 'weather sealed' as far as whatever that blanket statement means, 4.5fps, SD card (is this what's so 'entry-level' about it? or is my investment in CF getting nails in its coffin?), and Builtin Wifi+GPS (as to all the arguments in past bodies about how they "can't do it because of radio laws being different around the world', that seems to have gone).
Is this better then the 5D2? Looks about the same to me, at least on the specs that count.

So, let the speculation begin, as will the threads of "6D or 5D2?"

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Originally Posted by Dr Croubie

So, let the speculation begin, as will the threads of "6D or 5D2?"

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Possibly a 20mp sensor with the same technology as the 1D X?

Who is running Canon's marketing? They should have cleared the 5D II out of the supply chain before they released this body. If marketing was doing its job properly the only 6D vs 5D II threads we should be seeing are 6D vs used 5D II threads.

I expect they'll discontinue the 5DII at this point.

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

I expect they'll discontinue the 5DII at this point.

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I think they already have. From what I hear the supply chain is drying up, possibly they will all be gone by the time this camera arrives.

But I would think that the marketing department would have gotten rid of all of the 5D II's before releasing a camera with a smaller sensor for more money than they are selling the 5D II for. By the rumored numbers the 5D II looks better, it will cost Canon quit a few pre-orders I am sure.

This camera is VERY unimpressive in my humble opinion and I think I'm pretty much their target market.

Canon's offering is completely non-competitive versus the D600. 6D = fail

Dave

Hmm. Will it have budget AI Servo performance? I can't imagine they'd cripple a 1 digit body too badly. This would be a more modern body to get over the 1Ds mk2 I just ordered. Potentially worthwhile for the extra resolution, extra ISO performance, self cleaning sensor, modern display, liveview, movies, etc.

I'm trying to decide if I should cancel, before they ship. When did buying things become so hard?!?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Throgmartin

This camera is VERY unimpressive in my humble opinion and I think I'm pretty much their target market.
Canon's offering is completely non-competitive versus the D600. 6D = fail
Dave

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I'm pretty much the target market too. APS-C user, 7D, wouldn't mind an FF upgrade, only 1 EF-s lens (15-85, although Sigma 8-16 probably counts too, easily sellable if i had to, or keep with 7D). Lots of cash invested in EF lenses (like 50/85/100/70-300L, the Samyang 35 counts too, and a lot of M42/OM lenses that aren't adaptable to nikon).

So I'm very underwhelmed by this too, i'd rather a decently used 5D2 and 24-105 for the same price, instead of a 6D body, especially if it means i don't need to 'upgrade' to SD cards too.

If I were serious about my FF photos on a budget, i'd definitely be considering D600. The money in Canon glass is definitely the main thing stopping me (besides, you know, mortgage and stuff), although the nice DPP workflow i've got going is hard to replace for me (on linux). Thankfully i've got my EOS 3, P6, and K60 to keep me busy with FF and 6x6 photos, i'm sitting this round out (unless I see a 1Ds2 under $1000, or a 5Dc under $500).
New canon body? See you when the 5D4 or 6D2 come out...

Out of curiosity what do you guys hate about it? The price is identical. The 1.5 FPS difference? The 4MP? The extra AF points? All of it put together? Something else?

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Originally Posted by DavidEccleston

Out of curiosity what do you guys hate about it? The price is identical. The 1.5 FPS difference? The 4MP? The extra AF points? All of it put together? Something else?

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I think the Camera has it's place. If they had marketed it differently it would be accepted more favorably. If the 5D II was not available new right now this camera would have dropped right in a niche. No doubt they kept the 5D II in the market to fill the niche until this one came along. That is the problem, people will view this as a replacement to the 5D II not a camera filling a new void. As far as this body goes it doesn't really matter to me because I will probably never consider this camera in my kit, but maybe CAJ would have performed better in the last 9 months if marketing was more on the ball with body releases.

I don't mind it compared to a new 5D2, if the prices *were* identical there'd be no problem, and i'd probably even pick the 6D (if only because it'll have a new sensor, hopefully less noise?).

But a new 5D2 comes in under $2k these days, and used go down to $1200-1400 depending on condition. Against that, a new 6D can't compete, if it means getting a 24-105 'free' (as it were) for the price of a 6D body-only.
I don't care about fps or AF, that's what my 7D is for. Having to invest another $100 or so in SD cards also doesn't help the situation, it's like this 6D is for people upgrading from xxD and xxxD, and not for 7D owners. (although then there's another paradox, lower-end body owners are more likely to have Efs glass, 7D owners might have more FF-compatibles)

Based off the posted specs, my comparison of 5D3 vs 6D vs D600

Resolution -- D600 wins with 24 MP versus 22 5D3 and 20 6D
Frame rate -- 5D3 6 per second, D600 5.5 and 6D 4.5
ISO capability -- Per posted samples on the net D600 is very competitive versus 5D3. 6D is an unknown.
Dynamic range -- Typically Nikon wins. I don't know that anyone knows for sure, but it is likely D600 wins this comparison.
Autofocus -- 5D3 61 points of world class AF, D600 39 points, and 6D 11 points.
Viewfinder -- 5D3 and D600 both 100%, 6D unknown but is likely less than 100%
Max shutter -- 5D3 1/8000, D600 1/4000, 6D unknown
Build -- 5D3 easily wins this, D600 still has partial magnesium alloy. 6D is noted as being "weather sealed" and APS-C sized, the construction is unknown
Micro focus adjust -- 5D3 has it, D600 has it, 6d unknown

5D3 is better than D600, but there isn't IMHO a huge difference per the above. For $1400 less the D600 is quite competitive. It is early but the D600 looks to be a substantial step up from the 6D. The frame rate is a bigger improvement from D600 to 6D than 5D3 to D600. Autofocus quality is a bigger improvement from D600 to 6D than 5D3 to D600 also.

Let me say I'm not trying to irritate anyone. The 5D3 is an outstanding camera. The 6D will be good as well, but... D600 appears to win the comparison easily versus it...

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Throgmartin

This camera is VERY unimpressive in my humble opinion and I think I'm pretty much their target market.

Canon's offering is completely non-competitive versus the D600. 6D = fail

Dave

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I think I am their target market as well. I have been purposely buying lenses that can be use on a FF (other than a Sigma 10-20 which would go when I get a FF), but unless the 6D ends up with great DR and high ISO performance (gapless pixels would be nice as well), then I cannot see why I would buy it over a proven 5D II (even used). However, I do not see why it would have good DR or high ISO performace and take a chance of pulling sales away from the 5D III.

Not to enthused yet, but I am still reserving giving up hope until I see how the sensor performs.

Yeah, the D600 does look very tempting, that plus 2 nice lenses or 1 very nice lens would easily beat a 5D3 body-only, were I starting from scratch.

And it's not that the 6D looks bad compared to the D600, like you say most specs are still unannounced (i'd like to know if it has interchangeable focussing screens, that's another plus for the 5D2 if the 6D can't), the D600 is also pricier, but it has the specs to justify the extra $400 over the 6D.

I'm still comparing it to the 5D2 though, as Canon's 'entry level FF'.
Sure, the 5D2 may be (if not, then soon) discontinued, but there's almost nothing to count as an 'upgrade'. Or at least, 5D2 to 6D, for every upgrade there also a spec that's a downgrade. It's a replacement, surely, but it's as much of an upgrade that you get in an EFs 18-55 IS I -> II.
And if there's very little between them, they may as well be the same camera, and for that i'll take a used one over a new one.
Maybe the noise or DR turns out to be streets ahead of the 5D2, even enough to justify a few $hundred or so? Then it'll be almost into beating the 5D3 (for IQ), but I just don't see canon doing that.

And now I see that DPReview has specs out

The ones that count:
RAW, Fine JPEG, Normal JPEG. no sRAW or mRAW? maybe it's not stated, but meh, i'd only shoot fullRAW anyway.
New LCD, by the looks. from my few runins with a 5D2, i didn't hate the screen, but if it's better, yay. Touchsreen i'm on the fence as to whether I care. I'd probably use it if I had it, but i'm not excited.
97% 0.71x pentaprism. 97% is enough, 100% would have been nice though. Thankfully it's not a pentamirror, or it'd be dead in the water.
1/8000s, beats D600, but I don't think i've ever shot that high (except f/1.2 in full sun, not very often).
4.5fps.
3-frame bracketing.
Same video as 7D? (I don't use it anyway, so don't know the difference.)
Built-In Wifi (this should keep iToy users happy, as they don't have usb anymore).
Built-In GPS may be mandatory for some, i don't much care. (although 'Built-In' makes most sense on a 7D/5D3/1DX, where an adapter would reduce much-needed sealing)
'splash and dust' resistant, sounds somewhere between 60D and 5D2.


So in short (until we see the IQ results), it's a 5D2 with a touchscreen, gps, wifi. Besides those 3, there's not much seperating them besides slight incremental upgrades (and a few downgrades)...

Those of you stating 'I'm the target market,' and shooting with a 7D - I disagree. Canon seems to be making a concerted effort to shift consumers up a segment. Take the 60D - those with a 40D or 50D were 'pushed' to the 7D as an upgrade, while the 60D was made attractive as an upgrade for Rebel/xxxD users. There are many features (or lack thereof) consistent with this, most obvious is the card media. I see the 5DIII as the FF body upgrade for 7D and 5DII, and the 6D as targeted to 60D and Rebel users.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dr Croubie

... Builtin Wifi+GPS (as to all the arguments in past bodies about how they "can't do it because of radio laws being different around the world', that seems to have gone).

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Don't recall that as the reason (for GPS, at least) - rather, I heard the issue for GPS was the magnesium alloy shell (although that's probably bogus, too, as a thin antenna outside the shell would solve that).

Do touchscreens rotate controls when the camera is on the underside of a tripod? It takes me awhile to figure out the controls on my current rig when mounted upside down, and when I'm that low, important buttons and dials aren't very convenient.

It does seem to be a FF camera that would appeal to rebel users, or those buying their first DSLR. The specs just posted on CR Say it has subject / scene mode, which makes it far less intimidating to new users.

Also if Canon marketing stay's true to it's path, this will be an upgrade to a 7D II. Look for the 7D to be dumbed down in it's next version.

Ok, I can't cancel my 1Ds mk2 before they ship. They've shipped it! Atleast that will give me a few days to figure out if I'm shipping it back.

If you'd rather the 6D than the 1Ds2, i'll take the 1Ds2 off your hands...

Doesn't have built-in flash either. That's another thing I thought rebel folks might want, and I know I like it for tripping my other flashes.

I really don't know, Dr. Croubie.

The only reason I opted for the 1Ds over a cheaper 5D was for the servo. All the current single digit bodies have good servo performance, so I'm expecting the 6D will too. Assuming the sensor is also on par with current releases, it looks to be an upgrade from not just the 1Ds mk2, but the 5Dmk2 to me.

Better IQ, and adds usable super high ISO (compared to 1Ds mk2 and 5Dmk2)
Better servo over the 5Dmk2, unknown vs. the 1Ds mk2. (It *can't* be worse than than the 5Dmk2, based on what everyone says about it.)
Other extras over the 1Ds mk2 are a better screen, live view, movies, 20-something percent more pixels, a self cleaning sensor, and better controls (aside from the lack of portrait orientation controls).

I'm ignoring the GPS and Wifi. Don't these seems like decent enough improvements to reconsider my purchase?

Do you have CF Cards or SD or both? Buying new SD cards have to be taken into account for us already-xD-users.
Build quality, sealing, AF, they're all going to be better on the 1Ds2. No word on AFMA, nor changeable focus screens, but i doubt the 6D will have either.
Do you use Video? will you Geotag? (even if I did have a 6D, i'd turn geotagging Off, for privacy reasons, but that's me). Wifi is good for tethering to an iToy or tablet without USB, but otherwise i'm taking the card out into my usb3 reader.
SuperHigh iso, ok the 6D probably will be better, probably better all-round IQ, at least at comparable print-sizes (that's the big unknown until review-time, but the 6D can't be worse than 5D2 or it won't sell. But neither will it be better than 5D3).
And personally, an ungripped body is better (weight, and saves from needing to buy a new bag).

And how much did the 1Ds2 cost? I've seen them as low as $1100 on fleabay, the ones at $1600 don't even sell (condition dependent, of course). That and a nice lens or two >> 6D body (for me at least).

It was an E+ rated body for $1399. An E was available for $1299. I figured, what's $100 more for a near perfect condition body. If I didn't need the servo I would have tried out fullframe on one of the 5Dmk1's for $650-$750 instead.

I have both types of cards, since we still have a T1i kicking around too. Besides, SD cards are dirt cheap compared to CF, especially in Canada.

We do occasionally use the video, but it's not a must since the 7D can do it.

Review time looks to be far off. Apparently we're expecting a December release, add in a week or two for Bryan to get the review done. Add in the fact that it's Christmas time, and it will be 2013 by the time we see a review. Perhaps that's what will save the 1Ds... it's 2 days away, and kind of a 10 year anniversary gift to ourselves (Better than flowers, or a necklace, don't you think?).

The sensor cleaning has me scared though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidEccleston

Hmm. Will it have budget AI Servo performance? I can't imagine they'd cripple a 1 digit body too badly. This would be a more modern body to get over the 1Ds mk2 I just ordered. Potentially worthwhile for the extra resolution, extra ISO performance, self cleaning sensor, modern display, liveview, movies, etc.

I'm trying to decide if I should cancel, before they ship. When did buying things become so hard?!?

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I sold my 40D last week and figured I would get a 1Ds II off eBay. I was dissuaded from bidding on a 1Ds II recently after I read on the forums about Canon no longer supporting the 1Ds II after the end of the year.. From what I read it has a superb AF system and great IQ but the killer for me was their age and support worries.. I put a bid in on a very clean 5D classic with original box, etc. tonight for $750 and still didn't win.. ended at 821 believe it or not.. I am going to sit by the side lines for a bit and see where all this ends up.. you're right.. its a difficult decision..

I can't remember if it was on Adorama or B&H, but they had used 5D's for $650-$750 depending on condition. Less worry than a random EBay auction.

I wouldn't let sensor cleaning scare you off, my 7D needs it often enough and that's got the self-clean (although not as good as the new burping sensors in the 1Dx etc). I've gotten out the Visible Dust Wipes fairly often in the last few years (especially doing pinhole, that's how you see sensor dust the worst).

For that price, I reckon you got a bargain. And for the next however-many months until the 6D is actually released, just say to yourself "i wouldn't have gotten this shot if i'd waited"

And now it's official:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/profes...Specifications
No touchscreen, despite the rumours.

Maybe its saving grace is that the AF is claimed to work at EV -3.0.
That's better than 5D3, better than 1DX. Surely that can't be right? As long as the subject doesn't actually move then that may be enough.
And it does have AFMA, the each-end of a zoom thingy the 1DX has too. So it's not a complete write-off of a camera, maybe when it drops to $1500 it might be worth a look.
edit: and 2/3/5/7-frame bracketing. still not enough to justify the price.

Still, I'm sitting out of FF digital for now, the 7D stays, and i'm off to buy more Velvia.

So it seems that, and as Neuro said, my 7D won't become a 6D but rather a 5D III (or, who knows, a 1D X not to lose on the FPS). Still, I'll wait the end of the year but I don't see how I could give up the good things of the 7D for a 6D. Today, you can have the 5D III with the 24-105 (kit) for $ 3'655*. I hope the downhill trend continues until Christmas...

Edit: * here is Switzerland.

"Overall, though, it's difficult to shake the feeling that the EOS 6D simply lacks the 'wow' factor of its main rival. Whereas Nikon seems to have taken the approach of taking away as little as possible from D800 when creating the D600, Canon appears almost to have gone the other way, removing as much as it thinks it can get away with at the price. The result is the kind of conservative, slightly unimaginative design that's become the company's hallmark. It's still bound to be a very good camera, of course; just perhaps not quite as good as it could be."

Oh well, I'll continue waiting for something from Canon with at least 28 nice and clean megapixels, just hope my 5D2 holds out long enough ;-)

Adorama had/has the 5dIII at $2,750 on flea bay - yep bought it. Glad I did. for incremental $650 comparing the 6d to 5dIII doesn't seem like much of a comparison?

AF differential is more than enough, not counting the myriad of other things the 5dIII does that the 6d simply doesn't - wifi and GPS is not that interesting to me.

I will stick by my thought that Canon should have dropped the price on the 5dIII a bit (Adorama sort of did this) say $2,500 and come out w/ a 3d with uber pixel count.

I think Adorama set the new price point for the 5dIII - the 6d becomes interesting when? I am sure that the 5dII at $1,400 seems to be a great offering if not discontinued it will still be hanging about, $600 to get the features of the 6d, then 600 to to the 5dIII. Seems like a 1/2 step.

These are my two pennies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidEccleston

Ok, I can't cancel my 1Ds mk2 before they ship. They've shipped it! Atleast that will give me a few days to figure out if I'm shipping it back.

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+2 I think Steph and Colin hit it right on the mark.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steph

So it seems that, and as Neuro said, my 7D won't become a 6D but rather a 5D III (or, who knows, a 1D X not to lose on the FPS). Still, I'll wait the end of the year but I don't see how I could give up the good things of the 7D for a 6D. Today, you can have the 5D III with the 24-105 (kit) for $ 3'655*. I hope the downhill trend continues until Christmas...

Edit: * here is Switzerland.

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Is it me, or is that is a seriously weak AF system? Point spread no better than the 5DII, two more selectable points but four fewer points in terms of Servo tracking (which wasn't the 5DII's strong point anyway). Sure, the -3 EV is nice, but not salvation by any means given the frequency most users shoot in light that low (my 5DII, spec'd to -0.5 EV, could AF in light that needed ISO 25600).

Only one cross-type sensor, and that one not even a dual cross.

Now that the 60D's 9 cross-type AF with center f/2.8 dual cross has trickled down to the T4i/650D, IMO the Rebel line has a better AF system than the 6D.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

the 6D as targeted to 60D and Rebel users.

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Yep, I think that about sums it up.

And it could be a genius move on Canon's behalf (second time in a few days I've used genius on this forum..hmmm). But they are faced with a maturing market (nearly everyone that wants a digital camera has one, very few to no film folks left to convert, and cell phones taking a chunk from the P&S market). So, how do you "grow" in a maturing market? Entice your customers to upgrade. In this case I bet their largest group of "customers" own Rebels or xxD bodies and EFS lenses. Get them to buy FF and their first EF or even "L" lenses=growth/sales. Get them invested in Canon glass, loyalty. As xx% grow tired of the limitations of the 6D yet they now have Canon EF lenses, they turn to the 5D III or 1DX =sales.

I don't want to sound like I heeping too much praise on Canon, but, it isn't hard to see what they might be thinking.

That said, I like options and I will consider the 6D if/when I ever go FF. I suspect I will consider it very briefly before I either get a 5DIII (great price BK) or save a lot of pennies and get a 1DX. The thing that I suspect will keep me from buying a 6D will be the build quality/weather sealing. I take care of my camera, but I use it alot and in all types of environments. And I don't want to worry about it.

EDIT--after looking at the descriptions that have come out since my post, genius best describes the niche and not the camera (I did say "could be a genius move")....the 6D does seem to lack more than I thought it would. But it will be interesting to see how it performs and what reviewers, such as Bryan, think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

Is it me, or is that is a seriously weak AF system? Point spread no better than the 5DII, two more selectable points but four fewer points in terms of Servo tracking (which wasn't the 5DII's strong point anyway). Sure, the -3 EV is nice, but not salvation by any means given the frequency most users shoot in light that low (my 5DII, spec'd to -0.5 EV, could AF in light that needed ISO 25600).

Only one cross-type sensor, and that one not even a dual cross.

Now that the 60D's 9 cross-type AF with center f/2.8 dual cross has trickled down to the T4i/650D, IMO the Rebel line has a better AF system than the 6D.

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It was one of the first things I noticed. I would bet the kit lens it will be paired with will be a non L lens as well. I think most of the target market for this camera will not notice this when they are buying this camera.

When I bought my 50D the 7D or 5D II didn't exist yet. The 50D was billed by Canon as the bridge between consumer and pro bodies.
I think this camera takes that spot now. Salesman will sell this camera as "a professional grade camera that any one can use". An inexperienced photographer will be able to buy this camera, set it on the running guy to shoot sports, the mountain to shoot landscapes and the face to shoot portraits. It will be a model that not only the Rebel users might aspire to, but the P&S shooters as well. Many new DSLR customers will buy this model.

The only setting the camera will lack for the the inexperienced new shooter is the "W" wedding setting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

...and the 6D as targeted to 60D and Rebel users.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroanatomist

Is it me, or is that is a seriously weak AF system? Point spread no better than the 5DII, two more selectable points but four fewer points in terms of Servo tracking (which wasn't the 5DII's strong point anyway). Sure, the -3 EV is nice, but not salvation by any means given the frequency most users shoot in light that low (my 5DII, spec'd to -0.5 EV, could AF in light that needed ISO 25600).

Only one cross-type sensor, and that one not even a dual cross.

Now that the 60D's 9 cross-type AF with center f/2.8 dual cross has trickled down to the T4i/650D, IMO the Rebel line has a better AF system than the 6D.

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I have a 60D and was wondering which direction to go long term, 7D or FF. If I am the target market, why not make the AF a little better? I don't need 5D3 quality, the 7D's would have been nice or at least make it 11 cross-type and center f/2.8. I would love better ISO performance, so we will see how this goes. I like several of the features, but I can't say as the target market I am ready to jump.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HDNitehawk

I would bet the kit lens it will be paired with will be a non L lens as well.

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I had thought that, as well. The 28-135mm would be a logical choice. But, the available kits are with the 24-105L.

There was a recent patent for an updated 28-135mm, I wonder if that was intended as the kit lens (the current 28-135 is a little long in the tooth), but they couldn't get it ready in time, whereas there's a well-established production line for the 24-105L. Plus, it serves as a 'gateway' L-series lens.

I'm sticking with my 7D. I'll also upgrade to the 7D MKII if it is worth it. I'm fine with a crop sensor body as long as the body build and IQ is there like it is with the 7D.

The geotagging is a nice builtin feature, one that I'd take advantage of, however I currently use my GPSr to create a track file. Both my wife and I usually go out together, so having the 3rd party device that I can use the track file for both of us is useful. I also don't think that I could move back to less AF points as well as NOT having a built-in flash... it comes in handy in certain situations.

Hell, I'm a 60D user and I don't think I'd upgrade to a camera that didn't have top AF.

This must be for xxxD owners who've decided they want a FF camera. And then it seems rather expensive.

I think I was more of a target for this camera than most. I have a 7D and was very interested in this rumor before it became final. I can't afford the 5D mkIII since I don't make much money off my photography and I was looking at something newer in the full frame arena than the mkII. I was thinking they would maybe use the AF from the 60D or something like that and have MA. I mean come on, it is in the xD series of cameras! Maybe with the new tech they have and closing the loop with their new lenses, the AF accuracy is so much higher that they don't feel they need the AF assist points anymore??? Who knows. I also thought they might have a built-in flash since they weren't going to be doing much on the weather sealing side of things. I really like the trigger on the 7D. IQ and ISO performance is probably going to be good given their recent camera offerings and I don't think they can be terrible. I anticipated it would be a plastic body like the 60D, so that isn't a big shock. I believe with the AF, MA, no built-in flash, and the loss of my joystick, I will be on the fence with getting this or a 5D mkII. Sometime around the first of the year I will take a closer look when the price drops to where it should be (around $1500 to $1700). Maybe Bryan will have a chance to give some indication on the AF by that time.

I haven't seen anyone mention here that the max shutter speed on the 6D is 1/4000 and it looks like flash sync is at 1/180th? I didn't know Canon's would even take an exposure at 1/180th. Maybe this is the way of saying that it doesn't really synch at 1/200th like it says the 5DII does.