Refurbished or Recertified?

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03-31-2009, 06:19 AM
HelenOster

Refurbished or Recertified?

<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]I usually answer the questions, but today I have a question. We're looking for your views and opinions, so feel free to say as much or as little as you want!<o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]Most of you will be familiar with buying refurbished cameras and lenses, and some will be aware that one of the big manufacturers introduced a new requirement recently - that we can no longerindicate on our website which factory has refurbished the equipment we sell.<o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]As I've posted a few times in response to enquiries, all refurbished products sold by Adorama have been factory refurbished by the manufacturerand come with a 90 day return-to-Adorama warranty; 14 days from date of receipt for a full refund, and the balance for repair or replacement. They have all been restored to the exact manufacturer specifications by the original manufacturer. <o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]In the interest of clarity, we need to find a way to be informative and transparent, without breaking any of the terms of the agreement with our suppliers. <o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]One suggestion is that we describe these items on our website as 'recertified'. We'd love to know what you think. Would that description make you nervous? Have you any other thoughts?<o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]NB I will be posting this text on other forums; I hope you will understand that there is no intention to 'SPAM', but in truth, there aren't too many ways that I can reach out to all our customers asking what can only be an identical question!<o:p></o:p>
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<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]Helen </o:p>

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03-31-2009, 10:02 AM
Dallasphotog

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

As a customer who has already purchased a lot of "Refurbished by Canon" items, the change in description wouldn't impact me.The only thing that crossed my mind washowI would search your webpage (LOL). For a new buyer, the term recertified seems to convey the same basic meaning.

If the product is stillarriving in theobviously OEM brown box, I thinkconfidence levels will remain.

My daughter is a high school photojournalist and we built her entire kit off of the refurbished list!
03-31-2009, 10:09 AM
40Doodle

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Hi Helen,

I actually think both terms are appropriate because they are both being applied to the returned product that Adorama subsequently resells. The product is being recertified to meet manufacturer performance standards and it is being refurbished to correct any defects (functional and cosmetic) so that a portion of the warranty can be applied/continued. If it were my decision, I would note that the camera products are recertified refurbished by the manufacturer.

I didn't quite follow the thing about Adorama "not being able to indicate which factory" refurbished the equipment. If that meant (for instance) that Canon would not want you to say that a lense was refurbished by Canon factory A versus Canon factory B, then I would have to say they have a point. Stating the actual factory that performs the work could create issues whereby customers insist on a specific factory where the refurb is performed based upon customer preference and need. However, from a customer perspective, I'd prefer knowing that product was refurbed buy a factory closer to me (in the US in my situation). That can mean less transit time, US workers involved in the work, etc.

Rick
03-31-2009, 11:18 AM
HelenOster

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Thanks for your response - to clarify, the manufacturers are no longer allowing us to state refurbished by C _ _ _ _ on our website - even though everything we sell IS refurbished in a factory run by the manufacturer, and of course, a customer ordering one would be in no doubt that it was when it arrived'cos it will still have the little sticker on the bottom!

I also take the point about searching the term 'refurbished' - we need to ensure that the word links to the page(s) of recertified products; thank you for raising that one.

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03-31-2009, 11:36 AM
40Doodle

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Thanks for that clarification Helen. I would absolutely say that it is important (to me) to know that the product was refurbished by the manufacturer (by name). Otherwise, the customer may wonder if someone at Adorama, 3rd party company, etc is doing the work. For me, it would be very important to know that the manufacturer is doing the work. Nothing against Adorama (or any other party), but with things like lenses, it's a deal killer for me if I can't know that the manufacturer actually did the work on the lense. Otherwise I would choose "new" or take my chances outside of Adorama on a "used product".

Reading your statement "the manufacturers are no longer...", are you saying that other manufacturers don't want you using the word "Canon" in your refurbished statements or is it Canon themselves that doesn't want their name used? I would have trouble understanding why Canon would have an issue since it's their products being resold and that is goodness for the customer. If the other manufacturer's don't like it, I say tough-noogies, because it's important to the customer that they know who is doing the work.

Rick
03-31-2009, 11:56 AM
HelenOster

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Rick

You are absolutely correct to be concerned. Even with Adorama's 30+ years and relatively high regard in the business, I still respond to at least 3 or 4 forum or blog postings every week querying whether Adorama actually refurbishes the items we sell. We don't - and when the customer receives his or her order, the little gold sticker on the bottom is verification of that.

It is the manufacturers of the items themselves who have brought in this requirement, out of concern that some retailers might not be completely transparent in stating that the warranty is through the retailer, rather than the manufacturer.

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03-31-2009, 12:17 PM
Bob

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

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<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif';"]I look at this equipment as “used equipment” that failed and was reworked to make it function again. That can be good and bad, shorter warrantee and just because it was reworked does not make it better or equal to new equipment. It is better than buying third party used equipment since you can get your money back if you are disappointed.Otherwise, the price usually is not discounted very much for used equipment.If you gave a full warrantee, I would be more inclined to buy it. Changing the name does not change what you are buying.<o:p></o:p>

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03-31-2009, 12:39 PM
40Doodle

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Ok, now I get it Helen...it's a who's providing the warranty kind of thing. I do understand that Canon could have a concern that customers may think it is Canon providing that 90 day warranty vs Adorama or some other reseller. I wasn't exactly clear on that myself.

I'm also trying to "wrap my head around" this whole thing with Canon and Adorama's refurbished product. Are the lenses that Adorama offers as refurbished typically less than a year old or are they fully outside of Canon warranty? If they are less than a year old, then Canon themselves is (I guess) able to divest themselves of their own warranty and responsibilities since the lense is changing hands?

This whole topic raises another question in my mind. If I were to send a lense for repair directly back to Canon (that was out of warranty), do they warranty that repair in any way?

To Bob's thoughts, I've read that a refurbished lense (by Canon) is better than new because it get's more personal technical attention than a lense off the production line. Is that really true or is it just a popular belief? I don't personally know, but it has always sounded plausible to me.

Rick
03-31-2009, 01:05 PM
Bob

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

40Doodle,

<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif';"]The notion that the repair facility will do a better job than the factory is questionable. Having Canon's repair facility work on you lens/body does not mean it will be better, it could be worse. So I think that this notion is a way to make people feel better about buying used equipment.<o:p></o:p>

<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif';"]Your point about the age of the equipment is a good one. Why was it refurbished in the first place? The product failed and the repair facility could not repair it, so they gave the customer a new unit and had to send the "refurbished unit” back to the factory, or was the new equipment damaged in shipment, etc., and cannot be sold as new.<o:p></o:p>

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03-31-2009, 01:10 PM
Mark Elberson

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Helen,

When are these changes going into effect? Like Dallasphotog said, as long as I know how to search for "refurbushed" goods I'll be fine. I know it's been brought up before in other threads but if there were some sort of an automated email system that let us know when a particular lens was available that would be terrific :)
03-31-2009, 02:07 PM
TimT

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

I guess the trick is to clearly explain the work that's been done on your web site without offending the manufacturer. The ideal would be to have
a mouseover or clickable link from the word recertified and the visual that says something to the effect of: "All Adorama "Certified" cameras and equipment have been tested and brought up to spec by the manufacturer."

If you aren't mentioning Canon by name they may not mind. If the explanation of what's been done to the equipment gets too vague and generic, you will lose trust and sales.
03-31-2009, 03:31 PM
HelenOster

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]Bob
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]

<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]Refurbished itemsmay have been used previously in field tests or sales displays, they might simply have been ordered in error and returned to the retailer (who can't then sell them as 'new' so they have to be sent back to the manufacturer for refurbishment) or theymight havebeen ex-store demos.</o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]</o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]If items are pulled from the production linebecause something appears faulty, even for a very minor issue, once they have been removed from the normal flow of production, theyhave to beflagged asrefurbished.</o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]So youcould actually get a model coming straight from the factory that reallyhasn't been sold, or used at all.</o:p>
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"]Refurbished items are checked over by the manufacturer by hand, inspected very thoroughly, diagnosed, and calibrated by experienced technicians. So, they can turn out to be more dependable thannew items - which will only have been checked by a process of random sampling as they come off the conveyor belt.</o:p>
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000099; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]As all the refurbished products come with a 90 day return-to-Adorama warranty, if there are any problems you can simply send them back to us<o:p></o:p>

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<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]Helen </o:p>

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03-31-2009, 03:37 PM
HelenOster

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"]Mark

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<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"]We have already removed the phrase "refurbished by xxxxx" - which has led to huge numbers of customers contacting me to query whether this is because we at Adorama are now refurbishing them ourselves...... we aren't! All refurbished items are still factory refurbished by the manufacturer and will continue to be - while the warranty will continue to be provided by Adorama.<o:p></o:p>

<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"]The new website is still under construction - with over 500,000 items to load and a lot of exciting additions planned, it's not a straight-forward procedure.<o:p></o:p>

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<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]Helen </o:p>

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03-31-2009, 03:38 PM
HelenOster

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Thanks Tim; I'll certainly pass your suggestion on

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03-31-2009, 04:32 PM
I chase light

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HelenOster

<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"]We have already removed the phrase "refurbished by xxxxx" - which has led to huge numbers of customers contacting me to query whether this is because we at Adorama are now refurbishing them ourselves...... we aren't! All refurbished items are still factory refurbished by the manufacturer and will continue to be - while the warranty will continue to be provided by Adorama.

<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"]The new website is still under construction - with over 500,000 items to load and a lot of exciting additions planned, it's not a straight-forward procedure.

<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana;"]I know that an alert system has been discussed, and if it can be incorporated, I believe thatit will be

<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]Sincerely

<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]Helen <span class="goog-spellcheck-word"]Oster
<span class="goog-spellcheck-word"]Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador

<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]helen.oster@adoramacamera.com<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]

<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000000; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]www.adorama.com

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I would just like to say that Adorama and you, Helen, specifically, show an admirable concern fortransparency ofthe items you sell. This, for me, is what makes your company a first-class operation with which to do business.

That said, connectingsearches on the term "refurbished" to "recertified" would make it easier to find what one is lookingf for. Also, a clear (clickable?) definition of each term, and the difference between them, might help those who are notregulars on sites like this one to understand.

Yours,

James Ducat
03-31-2009, 11:51 PM
Bob

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

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04-01-2009, 01:33 AM
Colin

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

I like lenses that have been looked over and brought up to speed by a technician. I've bought new equipment that needed to go back to the factory for work, and aside from the warranty issue, I'd prefer that it just come fresh from having a qualified look over.

I think something like "Factory Refurbished" or "Manufacturer Refurbished"would be fine. I can understand that Canon might not want to have their name or responsibility implied, but I also don't want a refurbished product that might have simply gone through some mindless process by a guy who has a questionable working environment and experience. When I buy a lens, I want it pristine. I want it to focus correctly. I want it to work like new.

A guy who does work out of his garage may very well be fine, but I don't want to take that chance if I'm spending hundreds or maybe thousands of dollars. Refurbished is a good deal if it's leaving a Canon facility, and they're saying that it works just as well as new, cosmetic blemishes or not. If it's made to just 'work' by someone's subjective standards, I'd rather just spend the money to buy new.
04-01-2009, 04:31 AM
HelenOster

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

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The honest answer is we don't know; refurbished equipment is not like new inventory. The manufacturers only contactus when they have a batch to sell, therefore the availability is unpredictable and the individual history is unknown. However, if you were to ask my personal opinion on whether the equipment that Adorama offers as refurbishedis typically less than a year old, based on the regularity with which we receive batches, I'd be inclined to think it is all relatively new.</o:p>

<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]All the refurbished products come with a 90 day return-to-Adorama warranty; 14 days from date of receipt for a full refund, and the balance for repair or replacement. <o:p></o:p>

<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE;"]None of the manufacturers who provide refurbished inventoryoffer any implicit/explicit or any other type of warranty, (although currently, we do send Canon equipment back to Canon for the 90 days).<o:p></o:p>
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]Helen <span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;"]Oster<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"]
<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;"]Adorama<span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana; mso-bidi-language: HE; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;"] Camera Customer Service Ambassador
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04-01-2009, 04:37 AM
HelenOster

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"]I understand that the manufacturers are unhappy at us using even thedescription 'manufacturer refurbished' - even though, at Adorama, we know this to be the case! <o:p></o:p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"]<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"]We also wouldn't want to sell refurbished items that hadn't been inspected very thoroughly by the manufacturer by hand, and diagnosed, and calibrated by experienced technicians - because apart from anything else, (such as commitment to customer care and our reputation), we offer the warranty!!<o:p></o:p>
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04-01-2009, 10:25 AM
40Doodle

Re: Refurbished or Recertified?

Seems to me this whole thing is about Canon wanting to avoid having any responsibility for warranty on items that they provide to dealers for resale to the public. It sounds a bit hollow and weird to me for them to be asking Adorama (or others) to cease using the term "refurbished" because it may imply that Canon has some responsibility for the warranty. Hello? If the product is coming from Canon, repaired by Canon and as Helen shared is likely pretty new, then why not offer a warranty from Canon (especially if the product is still within it's original warranty period)? It's not like Canon would be increasing any exposure beyond what they agree to offer for the first 12 months anyway. Does it really matter that they found a problem with a product themselves or some customer had to return it because there was an infant mortality failure? The product would have been under warranty anyway. Just because something may have failed on it during the early term of the warranty is no reason to shed that warranty IMO. Canon themselves should at least provide some portion of the warranty.

For me this whole discussion has raised more concern about Canon's practices than anything else. None of my thoughts are in any way critical of Adorama or their business. They appear to be wanting to do the right thing for the customer and took a risk on discussing it with us here. So, for me, Adorama has again demonstrated customer care and interest in the way we buy product. As for Canon...I'm looking a bit askew at them and wondering what is really behind all this stuff.

Maybe this is all about what some lawyer at Canon created...[{][st][+o(]

Rick