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Hey all,
I've been given a fantastic offer on trading in my 650D for a 7D and I'd like to know what everyone's opinion would be. I know the 7D is widely regarded as a better camera, but what is it that makes it better? From what I can see the 650D is newer (and apparently faster) and has a touchscreen which I find to be a godsend, but where does the 7D excel? Is it image quality etc?
If anyone has any opinions I'd love to hear them :)
650 has a slightly updated sensor - if any (live view auto focus)
Digic 5 on the 650 image processor vs. dual Digic 4 on the 7d. 650 is "updated"
The difference as far as I can tell are,
Auto focus points, (have you taken that many out of focus shots?)
size & weight, construction, weather sealing, faster frames per second, penta prism vs. penta mirror (brighter), features such as electronic level and some other software bits which others are much better positioned to explain than I. Some love "the wheel" some not so much- I don't find it that much faster than the buttons.
Lose,
touchscreen, improved live view focus,
If you are longing for higher frames per second.... plan to give the camera to your grand kids in 15 years.... find you take several shots out of focus...
I know lots of people complain the 650 and it siblings are small in the hand - I have a 5dIII and 600 (same size) and I like the light weight and don't find the body small - and I have fairly large hands. I am always "surprised" if I have handled the 600 for awhile and then pick up the 5dIII at how heavy it is.
I see at as "once in" the increment gets pretty small. IQ will be "better" in the 650 for the updated processor (some argue the high iso noise reduction is too much)
Feature set, other than the live view focusing/touch screen the 7d is much more advanced.
"Upgrade" for the missing features, not for IQ
Agreed with everything he said. Heavily enjoyed the 7d,but if the features you need are found in the current camera, I'd stay there. Besides, they refresh the smaller sized cameras more often.
Thats enough for me to go with the 7D:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted Knuckles
After I upgraded from a Rebel to the 5D I found I hated the controls on the rebel. The wheel made it much faster for me. I also feel the rebel is too small in my hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted Knuckles
So image quality is better on the 650? I got told it was far superior on the 7d?
Same basic sensor (650D adds some pixel clusters for phase AF), so same basic IQ from the sensor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidy
To the extent that the much better AF and faster frame rate help you get more keepers, that can be considered better IQ.
I'd go with the 7D for its AF and Frame Rate. I like the wheel and the joystick of the 7D, but I can live without them. AF and Frame Rates are much more important.
I'd take the 60D over the 650D still I think...
So definitely 7D.
You're still back to buying new CF cards for the 7d and not having your touchscreen which you like so much.
Absolutely incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidy
The 7d, 600d 550d all share the same sensor and Digic Processor - impossible to have any IQ difference.
The 650d sensor is newer, with a newer processor, so theoretically it should give better response. except for certain websites that shall remained unnamed by me, saying that the 650D actually turns in slighty worse IQ than the 7/60/600D. Of course, if you're looking *that* closely at images from any of these, you should look for a good deal on a used 5d2 instead.
The biggest selling points for the 7D when I bought it were the fps and the AF, it's much more 'sports' oriented. 'sports' doesn't have to mean people running around a field, or birds flying overhead, kids running around a house can be just as challenging for an AF system.
Of course now that I've got it, there's other benefits that I wouldn't have thought of. I tried a friend's 550D the other day. Man, it is tiny. I've used rangefinders which are also small, but they fit my hands better. If it's an slr it's gotta be big for me.
And i don't like the 550d viewfinder, too small and dark. Pentraprism ->>> pentamirror. once you get used to it you can't go back.
Electronic level, very useful for tripod-landscapes, especially pano-stitching.
And custom-functions. I know lots of people who have C3 set to "OMG, look, a bird!" mode.
I love the wheel/joystick combo, I can't live without it. But that's more of a baby-duck syndrome, if you're used to buttons you may find it hard to switch to wheel. ditto touchscreen, if you like it and use it, you may miss it...
Well, the fear I have is going from the touchscreen. For example I like the ability to tap on the screen and have it focus on that spot. People have said I can do the same with AF points but I've never done it.
I've heard the 7d is far more advanced etc, and the weatherproofing sounds good, but if the image quality is the same... Is it actually still a more advanced camera?
I was looking into the 5dmkiii but I'd need new lenses and the body itself even second hand is still over $1k more which is not with lenses and still out of my budget.
As you know, the 7D does not have a touch screen, but in live view you can move the focus area around with the little joy stick. When looking through the view finder, you can use the joy stick to choose the focus point or even the set of focus points if you are not using single point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidy
The 7d can give you sharper shots using AFMA. If you have a camera that doesn't have it, you can send it in with your stacks of lenses and have Canon adjust everything to match. Would I get the 7d over the other camera? Yep. That's me. My hands can't curl around the smaller body and touch the buttons I need to. I would have loved it to fit (they're cheaper and give similar output), but it didn't. The 7d size is still a little small but right enough.
I'd give up using the touchscreen for a week and see if you can live without it out it. You prolly will get used to the auto focus points. Upgrading for possible image improvement is a rabbit hole you don't want to go down just yet. Every six months to a year a "better" one comes out. That could get expensive.
Not true, my friend. There's more that impacts image quality than just the sensor and processor. Look at the difference between the photos taken in this review between the 60D and 7D. Compared to the 7D, the 60D clearly has better image quality due to better noise suppression, color rendition and exposure. From other reviews I've seen, the 650D controls noise slightly better than the 60D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted Knuckles
That said, I would only consider the 7D if I were a sports photographer and needed the speed of the dual Digic 5 processor and superior AF system. Otherwise, the 60D does everything as well or better than the 7D (e.g. video). I would not buy another Rebel (XXXD) body. I've previously owned two of them. They take decent photos and have proved to be surprisingly durable, but they are too small for my large hands, look and feel like cheap plastic, have comparatively dark viewfinders, and they lack the top LCD and rear command dial. Given the small price difference between the 650D and the 60D, I would choose the 60D.
Do be careful with interpretations. For the review site you linked, I checked their How We Test description, and no where in there can I find a statement that RAW files are used as the basis for comparisons. For example, if you look at the ISO 6400 images for the 7D vs. the 60D, you're correct in that the 60D has less noise - but the much of the fine detail has been lost. You used the term 'noise suppression' and that's exactly what's going on in the comparison, the 60D has more NR applied, trading noise for detail. If you compare the RAW image output from the two cameras, there's no meaningful difference since the sensor is the same. In the review you're linking, I think you're seeing the effects of the JPG conversion process. The default settings of the 7D are definitely 'tuned' to be less processed - lower NR, lower color saturation, etc. It's a camera that benefits a lot from RAW shooting and good post processing technique. The 60D and the Rebel/xxxD line are 'tuned' to be more 'consumer friendly,' much like most computer monitors - the default calibration gives a bright, 'punchy' image with lots of saturation and contrast. If one plans to shoot JPGs in green square mode, a JPG-based comparison is helpful. If one plans to shoot RAW and convert images during editing, a JPG-based comparison is not terribly useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Dog
Well, colour detail is what I'm mainly after. The sharpness of my current camera shocks me with how good it looks (to my eyes at least) but the colours don't seem right... or maybe I'm just used to seeing landscapes that have been pumped through Lightroom and had a load of saturation added.
Maybe it's not the camera that's the problem? Maybe it's post processing I'm failing at?
Sometimes adjusting the Levels just slightly makes a huge difference in contrast and colors will come out much nicer, even before you even touch the saturation or vibrancy slider.
As having both T3i i.e. the 600d and the 5dIII. I am stunned at the IQ I can pull out of the T3i. Fiddle a little more and it will suddenly all make sense how to manage the settings.
Shooting RAW lets me focus on the exposure when I am shooting and fiddle w/ the color balance, etc in post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidy
Well, I use a Macbook Air with the retina display and a PC with a decent-ish Samsung 27 inch monitor and it looks bad on both. However I took a landscape shot yesterday and without barely touching the saturation or anything it looked so vibrant. So I'm thinking I must be doing something wrong :/
Don't think so - the light in every scene you shoot can be very different, and the camera more or less captures it as is, other than our human vision, which makes all kinds of auto-enhancements. Just compare histograms of shots you like and the ones that look dull, and you should see a significant difference.
Well, I've checked a few monitors and thwe viewfinder and it always looks washed out. however as I said previously I just took one and it looks great... so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.
I'll upload a few examples soon
So far it seems 60d or 7d would be better? I've tried going without touchscreen and it's easily doable.
Actually, better question I guess... Would I be better off just upgrading my glass and keeping the 650D?
YES!Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidy
At the core of the system is the sensor - all the same on the 550,600,650, 60d, 7d. The sensor is what captures the image - the only imaging difference in the 650 vs. all these cameras is that it has the Digic 5 vs Digic 4 processor. If you lined up each of these cameras and put all the settings the same they would produce identical recordings of the scene with the exception of the 650 - it would have the benefit of the updated image processor. (there are slight exposure amplification differences but these are slight software tweaks by Canon vs. true underling IQ differences and can be eliminated with slight changes in exposure settings) The biggest difference that I can tell is the Digic 5 operates faster and secondarily can be tuned higher in noise reduction at the high iso settings.
Glass holds value extremely well, camera bodies fall in value fairly quickly when new bodies are introduced -Glass holds its value much, much longer. Even when Canon brings out a new version the hold version holds its value as Canon seems to jack the price for the new version for quite awhile.
In my opinion, there is no need to upgrade the camera body until you have a good handle on histograms, white balance, noise reduction, color saturation, and exposure. Once you have a good grip on these issues, then upgrading - if you still want to - you might not - would be to a larger full frame sensor given what appears to be your general subject matter.
Having said this, an investment in a 'photo safari' organized by a camera club, local "pro", one of the traveling shows might be more beneficial in both near & long term. It sounds like you have enough gear, just need experience & practice.
Going back to your original post, it sounds like you have the opportunity to do a 1 for 1 trade and swap your 650 for a 7D. If it is a trade, I would do that. You are getting the same sensor, but better AF, weather sealing and the opportunity to do AFMA by getting the 7D.
If you have having to kick significant money in, I can easily see putting that money into glass and software like DXO or Adobe's Lightroom. If not already, start shooting in RAW and investing in good post-processing software and good lenses first is likely the way to go. Maybe, as mentioned above, also a club or classes.
Was looking into the 24-105L. Seems to be good and only $1k... Just hope I don't need to swap later. I think that and my macro should do me well though... I hope hehehe
Thanks heaps for all your help, it's greatly appreciated :)
Hmm. It would be different story if you didn't have either one yet, and you were deciding on which to buy. As you already have the T4i, which must have been a very recent purchase, I just don't see trading it right now for a used 3-year old camera that is about to be replaced/refreshed with a newer model. The 7D does not have a better sensor, and the T4i actually has a pretty nice new AF system itself, with all the cross-type AF points.
Unless you were doing extreme outdoor photography and really needed weather sealing and a metal body, I just don't see a huge difference there for you. Plus, with all the new stuff just about to come out, you might rather grab the 7D mk2 if it has a much improved sensor, or maybe add a full frame 6D or something.
But more than anything, I agree with Busted that you should probably first be sure you have good glass.