Already own a 5DII; should I swap for the 7D?

**Feanor** · 09-05-2009, 09:18 AM

I've had my 5DII for a about 6 months now and I really like it. But I can't help but wonder whether the new 7D wouldn't better suit my needs.

I do really like the high ISOs that can be used with the 5DII. But in very low light, where AF-assist beams are not allowed, I find that the outer AF points are almost useless. The center AF point still does the business but at f2.8 focus recompose doesn't really work, especially with anything that is moving even slightly. And at other times when the outer AF points do work, I find myself framing the image according to where the AF points are located, rather than according to what I think looks best. Which is annoying, especially as the AF points on the 5DII cover less of the viewfinder than the XXD/7D sensors.

I quite like shooting at gigs etc from which I've got some really good results from my 5DII. But I also like shooting nature and fast-moving things, like birds in flight. In these situations the 5DII's AF is usually OK but I do want a longer telephoto lens for this sort of thing. My 70-200 f2.8L IS isn't long enough, even with the 2x Extender (and of course quality is poor). So if 400mm isn't long enough on FF that only leaves me looking at a bank balance-breaking 500mm f4.

If I were to swap for the 7D, however, I'd be able to use the 400mm f5.6 and have more reach than the 500mm - yes, I know it's not "true" reach with crop sensors (I can crop with my 5DII and get the same results as a 50D), but actually with the 7D it gives near-as-dammit true extra reach due to the new 18MP sensor. Yes, I know there are the limitations of the lens to think about (CA etc) and not just resolution, but still I should be able to get good 500 or 600mm equivalent shots from a 400mm lens.

I don't think I can afford/justify both cameras. Bearing in mind the above, should I swap for the 7D?

**bob williams** · 09-05-2009, 10:10 AM

Feanor, I can't imagine trading a 5dII for a crop body of any make or model. It may appear that you have more reach, but the cropping you can do with the 5DII for the same effect will yield a higher quality photo---at least that is what I have gleened from all of the reviews. My guess is that you would regret trading your 5dII for any crop body. But....I would gladly trade my 50D for your 5DII, I could could even be convinced to throw in someglass and a battery grip just to sweeten the deal.

**OiCecil** · 09-05-2009, 11:32 AM

All those EF lenses aren't cheap, especially not the L models. Wouldn't it be a shame using them on a crop body - only using a portion of what you've paid for?

Of course there's nothing wrong with using them on a crop body. But personally I'd see only using them on a crop body as a waste of glass.

Just my 2 cents.

**Atomhot** · 09-05-2009, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Feanor

I do really like the high ISOs that can be used with the 5DII. But in very low light, where AF-assist beams are not allowed, I find that the outer AF points are almost useless.

Wouldn't the IR assist on the ST-E2 help here?

Originally Posted by Feanor

The center AF point still does the business but at f2.8 focus recompose doesn't really work, especially with anything that is moving even slightly. And at other times when the outer AF points do work, I find myself framing the image according to where the AF points are located, rather than according to what I think looks best. Which is annoying, especially as the AF points on the 5DII cover less of the viewfinder than the XXD/7D sensors.

the zones are intriguing…

Originally Posted by Feanor

Yes, I know there are the limitations of the lens to think about (CA etc) and not just resolution, but still I should be able to get good 500 or 600mm equivalent shots from a 400mm lens.

7D's DLA of &fnof;6.8 may cramp your style a bit… 2.3 stop range vs your 5D's 3.6 stop range.

Originally Posted by Feanor

I don't think I can afford/justify both cameras. Bearing in mind the above, should I swap for the 7D?

Of course you should sell me your 5dmkii for 1200 and buy an EOS 7D =)

What is your shutter count, where do you live, what is the body condition, and how much to pry the 5D mkii from your hands?

**EdN** · 09-05-2009, 12:08 PM

I am a 5D Mk II user and I've also been giving some thoughts to the 7D because I also like to do wildlife and bird photography when I get the chance. Like you, I would want more reach and I've also looked into the 500 F/4 L which is a bankbook breaker. In order to see how heavy it would be to pack around, I've also "tested" out how I would like to aim and use it by holding out a 4 kg (8.8 lbs) bag of sugar at arm's length during my grocery shopping. It's doable but not for a long period of time.

What I'm considering now is getting a 7D to supplement my 5D Mk II for the wildlife stuff and the bonus is potentially a much more robust and fast AF system. Cost is way cheaper than the 500 F/4 L and packing a body in the bush is a lot better than an extra 8.5 lbs. With my current 300 F4 L, I would get 480 F4 equivalent which "gets" me the big lens' reach.

What I'm waiting for is Bryan's review on the 7D, some confirmation on image quality, decent high ISO performance, feedback from users on top-notch AF performance, and some more $$$$ in the bank account. The 5D Mk II is too good to sell.

If you are already looking at the 500 F/4 L, the 7D is much cheaper.

**hotsecretary** · 09-05-2009, 12:44 PM

I just sold my 40D to fund my 5DII purchase! And I'll grab a 7D if it's all that in the later days as a backup body for Wildlife/Sports

But ya, I'm moving to FF.. I can't buy all this L glass and then feel a little left out with the IQ I've seen on 40D vs 5D

**Jon Ruyle** · 09-05-2009, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Feanor

But in very low light, where AF-assist beams are not allowed, I find that the outer AF points are almost useless. The center AF point still does the business but at f2.8 focus recompose doesn't really work, especially with anything that is moving even slightly.

Yeah, I agree. In low light I use the center point and recompose, which works fine for me because usually my subjects aren't moving. Keep in mind, though, the full frame sensor allows you a lot of freedom to crop compared to a crop sensor. So for small far away stuff that is moving in lowish light, I use the center point and compose by cropping.

One more point: the 7D has auto focus is rated to work in the same light as the 5DII (-0.5 ev). Maybe all the af points work as well as the 5DII center point, but we don't know that for sure (I don't, at least [

]). Maybe it will do no better than the 5D in this regard. (I was hoping the 7D would be rated at -1.0ev like the 1DIII and 1DsIII, but it isn't).

Originally Posted by Feanor

If I were to swap for the 7D, however, I'd be able to use the 400mm f5.6 and have more reach than the 500mm

Too bad Canon doesn't make long slow lenses. If you're satisfied with a 400mm f/5.6 on a crop body, that would be equivalent to a 640mm f/9 lens on a full frame body. Other things being equal, a 640mm f/9 lens should be easier to make. (But of course, other things are not equal).

I wouldn't switch my 5DII for a 7D unless I was very heavily in to taking pictures of stuff that moves quickly, and even then I'd want to know more than I do now about the 7D. On the other hand, if that was what I wanted, I'd probably get a 1DIII. (On the other other hand, according to some ways of thinking, this camera has less reach than either the 5DII or the 7D).

Jon.

**Feanor** · 09-05-2009, 04:51 PM

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Originally Posted by bob williams

Feanor, I can't imagine trading a 5dII for a crop body of any make or
model. It may appear that you have more reach, but the cropping you can
do with the 5DII for the same effect will yield a higher quality photo---at
least that is what I have gleened from all of the reviews. My guess is
that you would regret trading your 5dII for any crop body. But....I would
gladly trade my 50D for your 5DII, I could could even be convinced to
throw in someglass and a battery grip just to sweeten the deal.

With respect I'm not sure you read my post properly:

"yes, I know it's not "true" reach with crop sensors (I can
crop with my 5DII and get the same results as a 50D), but actually with the 7D
it gives near-as-dammit true extra reach due to the new 18MP sensor. Yes, I
know there are the limitations of the lens to think about (CA etc) and not just
resolution, but still I should be able to get good 500 or 600mm equivalent
shots from a 400mm lens."

I realise you were probably joking / being facetious about your 50D, but in
the case of the 50D I truely can crop from my 5DII and get the same
"longer" shot. But also the AF is no better on the 50D.

Originally Posted by Atomhot

Originally Posted by Feanor

I do really like the high ISOs that can be
used with the 5DII. But in very low light, where AF-assist beams are not allowed,
I find that the outer AF points are almost useless.

Wouldn't the IR assist on the ST-E2
help here?

Hmm, does this really use invisible IR beams for AF assist? Cause normally
if I need AF-assist with no flash then I use my 580EXII and disable the flash -
but as mentioned above it's often not always possible to shine bright red beams
at your subject. If flash photography isn't allowed (giggs, wedding ceremonies
etc) then AF-assist beams aren't likely to be OK.

Originally Posted by Atomhot

Originally Posted by Feanor

Yes, I know there are the limitations of the
lens to think about (CA etc) and not just resolution, but still I should be
able to get good 500 or 600mm equivalent shots from a 400mm lens.

7D's DLA of &fnof;6.8 may cramp your style a bit… 2.3 stop range vs your 5D's 3.6
stop range.

<o

></o

>

I realise noise will be more of an issue but I have to compromise somewhere
if I'm not going to get a pro body.

Originally Posted by Atomhot

Originally Posted by Feanor

I don't think I can afford/justify both
cameras. Bearing in mind the above, should I swap for the 7D?

Of course you should sell me your 5dmkii for 1200 and buy an EOS 7D =)

What is your shutter count, where do you live, what is the body condition,
and how much to pry the 5D mkii from your hands?

lol perhaps all this interest from people hoping for a bargain 5DII should
tell me this is a bad idea!

I'm in the UK, and I haven't really thought
about what I'd sell my for 5DII yet, if I did

. Judging from my photo numbers
which I always keep incremental my shutter count is 5600.

Originally Posted by EdN

I am a 5D Mk II user and I've also been giving some thoughts to the 7D
because I also like to do wildlife and bird photography when I get the chance.
Like you, I would want more reach and I've also looked into the 500 F/4 L which
is a bankbook breaker. In order to see how heavy it would be to pack around,
I've also "tested" out how I would like to aim and use it by holding
out a 4 kg (8.8 lbs) bag of sugar at arm's length during my grocery shopping.
It's doable but not for a long period of time.

What I'm considering now is getting a 7D to supplement my 5D Mk II for the
wildlife stuff and the bonus is potentially a much more robust and fast AF
system. Cost is way cheaper than the 500 F/4 L and packing a body in the bush
is a lot better than an extra 8.5 lbs. With my current 300 F4 L, I would get
480 F4 equivalent which "gets" me the big lens' reach.

What I'm waiting for is Bryan's review on the 7D, some confirmation on image
quality, decent high ISO performance, feedback from users on top-notch AF
performance, and some more $$ in the bank account. The 5D Mk II is too good to
sell.

If you are already looking at the 500 F/4 L, the 7D is much cheaper.

That's exactly the issue. It's a compromise, but it might be one I'm willing
to make in order to avoid the cost & weight of the 500 f/4. Although to be
honest I'm not sure the bag of sugar test is a completely fair one - some of
the weight of the lens would be supported by your right camera body hand.

I agree on waiting for the review, which on past experience is likely to be
some months away (understandable as the camera's not yet been released and
Bryan needs time with the kit to make his reviews thorough).

Originally Posted by Jon Ruyle

Yeah, I agree. In low light I use the center point and recompose,
which works fine for me because usually my subjects aren't moving. Keep
in mind, though, the full frame sensor allows you a lot of freedom to crop
compared to a crop sensor. So for small far away stuff that is moving in
lowish light, I use the center point and compose by cropping.

I do the same - but there's a limit to how much you can do that. As said the
18MP of the 7D would give me much clearer (or at least higher-MP) shots than a
1.6x crop from my 5DII.

I agree on the need to know more. I hadn't realised that the difference
between FF and crop is the difference between f5.6 and f9 though! Agreed about
it being a shame that Canon don't make long slow lenses. Not only would the
lower price be great but the reduced weight would also help loads too.

Originally Posted by Jon Ruyle

Too bad Canon doesn't make long slow lenses. If you're satisfied with
a 400mm f/5.6 on a crop body, that would be equivalent to a 640mm f/9 lens on a
full frame body. Other things being equal, a 640mm f/9 lens should be
easier to make. (But of course, other things are not equal).

I wouldn't switch my 5DII for a 7D unless I was very heavily in to taking
pictures of stuff that moves quickly, and even then I'd want to know more than
I do now about the 7D. On the other hand, if that was what I wanted, I'd
probably get a 1DIII. (On the other other hand, according to some ways of
thinking, this camera has less reach than either the 5DII or the 7D).

Yep it is a shame Canon don’t make long slow lenses – both the reduced price
and the reduced weight would make them very attractive alternatives. I hadn’t really
thought about the effective light loss of cropping a shot, which is a fair
point, but is the comparison of f/5.6 becoming f/9 quite so clear? If I crop on
my 5DII the result may be more visible noise in some circumstances but I don’t
quite understand the stop and a half difference you mention.

Maybe, as you say, if I want everything I’ll just have to get a pro body.

As has been said at this stage we can only wait and see.

**Feanor** · 09-05-2009, 04:54 PM

deleted, created my mistake

**Jon Ruyle** · 09-05-2009, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Feanor

I do the same - but there's a limit to how much you can do that. As said the
18MP of the 7D would give me much clearer (or at least higher-MP) shots than a
1.6x crop from my 5DII.

That's true only to the extent that your 5DII shots are sharp to the pixel. For me, often, the 5DII sensor is not the limiting factor.

Originally Posted by Feanor

. I hadn’t really
thought about the effective light loss of cropping a shot, which is a fair
point, but is the comparison of f/5.6 becoming f/9 quite so clear?

I didn't claim that it is clear, only that it is valid [

] What I mean is, in terms of light gathering (as you mention) and depth of field, cropping by a factor of 1.6 has the same effect as multiplying the f number by 1.6.

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