Need help deciding between upgrading to a 60D/7D or better lens(es)

[Goob]

Glad to have discovered the Community site. I've been reading Bryan's reviews for a couple of years now - Thanks, Bryan! - but never ventured to the community site until tonight.


I've been stewing over this for a couple of weeks now: Should I upgrade to a 60D/7D or get some better lenses/gear? In short, I want to improve my photos; I think that equipment limitations may be holding me back, although I'm not disillusioned about the fact that I have a LOT to learn; and I have a limited budget of $1500. I'm hoping I can get some sage advice from you.


Here's a more detailed intro to my gear and habits:

1. My subject preferences are a mixed bag: I love capturing landscapes, flowers, portraits, and most of all, my pre-teen kids. I also take some product photographs as needed.
2. I've owned a Canon Rebel XTi since 2007 and I've been using aTamron 18-270mm f/3.5-6.3 Di II VC LD Lens exclusively since Dec 2009 with some great results (to me, as a hobbyist, at least).
3. This past November, I added a Manfrotto 055XPROB Pro Tripod with the Manfrotto 498RC2 Ball Head with Quick Release Replaces Manfrotto 488RC2, which has greatly helped with landscape, flower, and product photography.
4. I added aCanon Speedlite 430EX II Flash this past December (2010) and have been enjoying the resulting improvements to my portraits and family shots.
5. I've been slowly improving my post-production skills in Lightroom and Photoshop, and recently, onOne PhotoTools. This still poses major problems for me since I'm color blind in the green-red spectrum -- some greens simply appear grey to me, and some reds and greens are indistinguishable (I miss dark red-eye anomalies until zoomed WAY IN, but bright reds are okay), so my wife and daughter are frequently called in for color critique.
6. I've just recently started dabbling with bracketed shots for HDR, and manual focusing for better stationary photography.

My reasons for wanting to upgrade equipment in either direction are:

1. I prefer photos taken with natural lighting over flash, so low-light capability is becoming more important.
2. I want my portraits and family photos to be tack sharp, but even with pin-pointed Servo-AF on the eyes, I find my XTi's AF sluggish andthe burstscumbersome, missing too many action shots of my kids.
3. Now that I'm starting to use manual focusing more frequently, I'm finding my XTi's viewfinder painfully small, which is my only option since the XTi does not have live view.
4. Hobbyist-to-Pro upgrade implants/surgery are still relegated to Sci-Fi movies.
5. I'd love the ability to switch to HD video capturing for family events

Please let me know if I can provide any additional information.


Cheers! Goob

[thekingb]

Normally most people, including me, would tell you to upgrade glass before camera body. But based on what you have described, I think you have outgrown your XTi; and the Tamron 18-270 is a pretty darn good lens considering its 15x zoom. My mother-in-law has an XT and it really shows its age compared to a 60d or 7d. So I would upgrade the body.


As for which one...I have a 7d and absolutely love it, but I bought it before the 60d was released, which has a significant cost savings. I would strongly consider the 60d unless you can come up with a few must have features on the 7d that warrant the extra cost (like AF micro adjust or 19 zone AF).


If wanted to go the glass route, I

[thekingb]

And if you get the 60d there

[iso79]

Get the 7D!

[Sean Setters]

[*]I prefer photos taken with natural lighting over flash, so low-light capability is becoming more important.

I agree with the other members that it sounds like a new camera body may suit your needs best. However, I must ask--why do you prefer the shots taken with natural lighting? If it's convenience, I completely understand. However, if its because they just don't look as pleasing to you, it may be a matter of correcting or modifying your technique...

[HDNitehawk]

My reasons for wanting to upgrade equipment in either direction are:

1. I prefer photos taken with natural lighting over flash, so low-light capability is becoming more important.
2. I want my portraits and family photos to be tack sharp, but even with pin-pointed Servo-AF on the eyes, I find my XTi's AF sluggish andthe burstscumbersome, missing too many action shots of my kids.
3. Now that I'm starting to use manual focusing more frequently, I'm finding my XTi's viewfinder painfully small, which is my only option since the XTi does not have live view.
4. Hobbyist-to-Pro upgrade implants/surgery are still relegated to Sci-Fi movies.
5. I'd love the ability to switch to HD video capturing for family events

I wouldn't let #5 weigh to heavy in your decision. While they do great video, I find them almost impossible to hand hold and get a decent video. If you spend another 1000 bucks or so you might get stabilizing equipment that would help with this.


#1 you need faster glass, the 7D is not going to be a big help. At least in my opinion which is biased since I have a 5D II.


#2 the 7D will help with the action shots. You have microfocus adjustment with the 7D so it should help with tack sharp pictures.


#3 I have no frame of comparison here for the viewfinder since I have never owned your camera body, other than to say the 7D viewfinder is small. I have trouble manual focusing with it.


#4 The only advice here is you need to win the lottery.


Which way to go? The 7D is a good upgrade. If you went that way then it is a never ending cycle. Of course you need new glass to go with it. In your position I would probably go that way.


New lens, thats fun to. It is a close call.

[Jon Ruyle]

I agree with the kingb. For reason #1, you should get a fast prime. For reasons #2 and #5, you need a new body. Perhaps a new but not so expensive body (like the t2i or t3i), and an inexpensive prime (like the 85mm f/1.8) would suit you.


The 7D viewfinder is larger, but I find manual focus through the viewfinder is difficult, even with my 5DII (which has a larger viewfinder still).


On the other hand, I

[Kayaker72]

Are you including selling your XTi as part of your $1,500 budget? I just checked ebay and they seem to be going for ~$250-350.


As my understanding is that "faster" glass also helps with AF speed (cameras focus using the maximum aperture and then narrow the aperture for the photo), I would be curious to see how much a lens such as the 85 f/1.8 would help. You could potentially spend your money in stages, first getting a fast lens and then evaluating if it helps both with your sharpness and AF speed issues. If you bought used and didn't like the results, you could likely then sell it for a very similar price and still have all your funds available.


After that, all I can add is that I do love my 7D, it does focus very fast when it has enough light. But it may not be different enough from the 60D to justify the price difference.

[neuroanatomist]

Hi, and welcome to the TDP forums!


Tough decisions...we should all follow Rick's advice and win the lottery!


As stated above, the usual advice is to upgrade your lenses before upgrading your body. That said, the XTi is getting a little long in the tooth. On the other hand, the Tamron 18-270mm, while decent for a superzoom lens, does not deliver top image quality, nor does it perform well in low light.

I prefer photos taken with natural lighting over flash, so low-light capability is becoming more important.

A current body (7D, 60D, even a T3i) will provide an improvement in ISO performance, allowing you to shoot in lower light by increasing ISO. In practice, this improvement is modest at best (less than a stop). For low-light capability, you'll get more bang for your buck with a faster lens. If by 'low-light' you mean indoors at night with ambient lighting (e.g. a couple of 60 W-equivalent bulbs), even a f/2.8 is right at the edge, often requiring ISO 1600 or 3200. Thus, you're often better off with a prime lens (e.g. 50/1.4 or 85/1.8) for low light use.

want my portraits and family photos to be tack sharp, but even with pin-pointed Servo-AF on the eyes, I find my XTi's AF sluggish andthe burstscumbersome, missing too many action shots of my kids.

Are you sure the 'sluggish AF' is due to your XTi? The Tamron's AF is reportedly rather slow. Probably, it's both. The burst rate is clearly a factor as well - the XTi shoots at 3 fps. Both the 60D and the 7D will be significant improvements there, in more than one way. The 7D delivers 8 fps, which is great, and the AI-Servo AF in the 7D is the best you can get short of a 1-series body. The 60D is no slouch, though, at 5.3 fps it's still an improvement. Often overlooked are the specs for shutter lag (time from pressing the button to the image being captured) and viewfinder blackout (time when you can't see to continue tracking your subject) - those specs are identical between the 7D and 60D. Shutter lag is particularly important for fast-moving subjects - it's 100ms on your XTi and 59ms on the 7D/60D, meaning less time for your moving subject to move between autofocus and image capture.


The other part of 'tack sharp' images, especially portraits where servo tracking is not a factor, is the performance of the autofocus system. As I stated, the 7D's Af system is really excellent; the 60D will still offer substantial improvements for you - all cross-type sensors and a better processor for faster AF (Canon doesn't update AF systems that often - the XTi uses the 20D's AF system that was also used in the 30D and is still used in the current Rebels; the 60D uses the AF system first seen on the 40D; the 7D has brand new AF design). The 7D also has a feature that the 60D lacks - autofocus microadjustment (AFMA), which is the ability to calibrate the AF system for specific lenses, to correct for variations due to manufacturing tolerances. That adjustment can be important for fast lenses (i.e. a wide maximum aperture), where the depth of field is very shallow and accurate focus is critical - with a slower lens (such as your Tamron), the deeper DoF will mask slight AF errors. For me, with a collection of fast primes, I would not get a camera without AFMA. However, if you get a 60D and a fast Canon prime, and there is a focus issue, you can send body and lens into Canon for adjustment.

Now that I'm starting to use manual focusing more frequently, I'm finding my XTi's viewfinder painfully small, which is my only option since the XTi does not have live view

Both the 60D and the 7D will have a larger viewfinder than your XTi (big jump from XTi to 60D, small bump from 60D to 7D). However, for maunal focus of stationary subjects, Live View with 10x magnification will be much better than the viewfinder. Ih that regard, the 60D has a potential advantage with the articulating screen, which allows more flexibility in positioning you and the camera for a shot.


As a side note, if you end up getting a lens faster than f/2.8, you'll need to use Live View for manual focus. For technical reasons, the viewfinder shows the depth of field of f/2.8 even with faster lenses, unless you install a different focusing screen (not possible on the 7D, but you can install the Ef-S focusing screen on the 60D).

I'd love the ability to switch to HD video capturing for family events

Agree with Rick on this - dSLR video is a specialty function, usually requiring additional stabilizing equipment (minimally a fluid head for your 055XProB), external mic, etc. It's also technically challenging - unlike a camcorder, current Canon dSLRs do not autofocus during shooting - you need to manually pull focus as you or your subject move. If your goal is to capture family events, I'd really recommend a camcorder instead (I recently picked up a Vixia HF M41 for just that use).

Should I upgrade to a 60D/7D or get some better lenses/gear? In short, I want to improve my photos; I think that equipment limitations may be holding me back ... I have a limited budget of $1500.

My overall recommendation would be to upgrade both. Photography is about compromises, and getting the best of everything really does require winning the lottery. For your budget, I'd recommend getting the 60D and the 85mm f/1.8 (or perhaps the 50mm f/1.4 - compare the focal lengths with your Tamron on your XTi). You stated that you've gotten results you really like with your Tamron superzoom. The 60D will add a faster frame rate and better AF there, along with a slight improvement in ISO performance. The fast prime will be great for portraits, and also for sports use - the 85mm f/1.8 will deliver a wonderful background blur, is very sharp, and also focuses very fast.


Hope that helps, and good luck with your decisions!


--John

[Roland Scheiner]

I fully agree with Neuroanatomist. So there is nothing to be added. I do have 2 EOS 7 D and a Sigma 18-200 mm and a 10-20 mm also from Sigma (because Canon couldn´t deliver at the time when I bought the camera and glass) I As far as the low light ability of the 7 D is concerned: In March this year I took pictures at night of the Alkazar in Grenada and of Flamenco dancers under existing light in a cellar which was not good illiminated. I had to use 3200 ISO. and I was delighted. I am happy with the gear at the moment, although I am waiting for the successor of the D1s III or whatever the trademark will be.


BTW: I am also one of the poor red green blinds. This is a real restricktion when viewing photos. But (for me) a good photo not only consists ot colors but also of the subject it expresses.


regards


roland Scheiner