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Thread: Crop factor and f/stop

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  1. #1
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    Re: Crop factor and f/stop



    The same amount of light per square centimeter gets through the lens, regardless of the camera or sensor.
    Agreed. But I would argue that "total amount of light" matters far more than "light per area".

    Quote Originally Posted by George Slusher
    In terms of exposure, it doesn't affect it, at all.
    F-number is the established paradigm of photographers; how most of us think and work day in and day out. This mode of thought was necessary for film, since the response curve was intrinsically tied to the exposure (no matter what the sensor size), and it continues to work just fine in any discussion of a raw digital sensor of a single size.

    However, in a discussion of raw digital sensors of multiple sizes, the old paradigm is suboptimal and even misleading. Now that we have a linear capture medium, it doesn't matter what the intensity of light per area is: all that matters is the *total* amount of light.



    In film, if you go from 35mm to MF, you can't reduce exposure to keep DOF the same, because the image would be underexposed; that's why many MF/LF shooters used tripods and slow shutter speeds. But that's not true of digital: the size of the sensor compensates perfectly for reduced exposure, so any larger sensor can get the same image as a smaller sensor.


    If you think in terms of f-number only, then it may seem that larger sensors have less noise, thinner DOF, less diffraction, higher MTF, more weight, etc. But that's not true in all circumstances: only when f-number is kept the same.

    For example, people often lament that there is no FF equivalent to the 17-55 f/2.8 IS. But there is, and it's even better! The only reason they didn't see it is because they were held back by their f-number-centric frame of mind. The 24-105 has lower light intensity per area (exposure) but it has so much larger area that it more than makes up for it and actually collects more total light and has less total noise. You actually have to stop down the 24-105 by a third stop to get images similar to the 17-55.

    As another example, some think that the f/2 lenses on four thirds are a great advantage over the f/2.8 lenses on full frame: they think they can get faster shutter speeds. In fact, it only takes an f/4 lens on FF35 to get the same shutter speed, noise, DoF, and diffraction as an f/2 lens on Four Thirds.

    It's not always even possible to keep f-number the same when going to a larger sensor. Most medium format lenses are only f/2.8 or slower, and actually have deeper DOF (and lower total light gathering power in low light) than the f/1.2 lenses on FF35.

    A tiny 5x4mm digicam at f/2.8 has the same light intensity as a 56x41mm f/2.8 medium format digital back. But the larger camera gathers for more light in total, and when printed at the same size, it has far less noise, less diffraction, and thinner DOF. However, if we apply the crop factor to f-number: f/31 on the MFDB will result in the same total light, same noise, same diffration, and same DOF.

    When comparing multiple format sizes, keeping f-number is same is not necessary, desirable, or even possible in all circumstances.

    Crop factor explains equivalence between two different sized sensors. Multiply the focal length by the crop factor to get the same angle of view. But angle of view is not the only thing that may be compared between two camera systems.

    Noise, DOF, diffraction, MTF, MP, weight, etc. can also be compared, and these comparisons should be done by applying the crop factor to the f-number. The effect is to keep the iris diameter the same. Then, no matter what the sensor size, noise, DOF, and diffraction remains the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Slusher
    If you're concerned about depth of field, don't use the "crop factor."
    For non-macro focus distances, I find that the crop factor does provide equivalent depth of field to a very close approximation, so I find it highly useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Slusher
    Instead, go to DOFMaster and check out his calculator.
    I've done the calculations from 1/3" sensors up to 6x17 cm sensors and found that crop factor precisely correlates with DOF. Have you found any examples where it does not? As Mark stated, 50mm f/2.8 has the same DOF on APS-C as 80mm f/4.5 on FF35.

  2. #2

    Re: Crop factor and f/stop



    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
    For example, people often lament that there is no FF equivalent to the 17-55 f/2.8 IS. But there is, and it's even better! The only reason they didn't see it is because they were held back by their f-number-centric frame of mind. The 24-105 has lower light intensity per area (exposure) but it has so much larger area that it more than makes up for it and actually collects more total light and has less total noise. You actually have to stop down the 24-105 by a third stop to get images similar to the 17-55.

    Does this mean that a 16-35/2.8L on a crop body will also have to be stopped down to F4.5 to get the same exposure as with the EF-S 17-55/2.8 at F2.8 on the same body?

  3. #3
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    Re: Crop factor and f/stop



    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Browning
    For non-macro focus distances, I find that the crop factor does provide equivalent depth of field to a very close approximation, so I find it highly useful.

    Daniel, are you saying that it is *not* true for macro?



  4. #4
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    Re: Crop factor and f/stop



    Yes, that's what I'm saying; at a minimum, bellows factor has to be considered as well.

  5. #5
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    Re: Crop factor and f/stop



    would you mind explaining bellows factor?

  6. #6
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    Re: Crop factor and f/stop



    I *thought* bellows factor refered to the fact that effective f number is f number times (1 + magnification). (Ie, if you're shooting at f/10 and magnification 1:1 then you must expose as if you were shooting f/20). With ttl metering, we don't have to worry about that much, except to know we'll need more light for macros.


    Effective f number also gives rise to more diffraction. I don't think you use this "effective f number" in dof calculations. dof is proportional to f number (the real one, not effective f) and inversely proportional to magnification.


    But I don't see how this changes the fovcf rule. That is, it seems to me that a 100mm lens on a 1.6fovcf camera shooting at f/10 and 1:1 magnification still acts like 160mm f/16 at 1:1 would on ff (in terms of exposure and dof).


    I'm probably wrong, though [^o)]









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