Canon R3

[neuroanatomist]

The fact Canon is doing well is besides the point. Canon has literally been pushed into being competitive. It's Sony who has done this because of the of all the things I have mentioned before.

That is backwards. Was the timing of Sony’s launch of FF MILCs a coincidence? They had already drastically reduced their DSLR line in favor of APS-C MILCs because they were not able to compete for DSLR sales with Canon and Nikon. Then, the 800 pound Canon entered the APS-C MILC market with the EOS M, and Sony shifted focus to FF MILCs. About 5 years after Canon launched the M line, it became the globally best-selling MILC line. Canon launched their FF MILC line in 2018, and since then Canon has steadily gained FF MILC market share, to the point where they likely are or will soon lead the entire MILC market.

So really, it’s been Canon pushing Sony to be competitive, not the other way around as you suggest. Sony needs to stay one or more steps ahead just to keep from losing more market share, and they’ve definitely been innovative. Given the trends recently (the real ones extrapolated from actual data, that is), Sony is losing ground.

Even studies/stats are nothing more than asking a small percentage of people their viewpoints, sometimes only a couple hundred or less are what studies can be based off of.

Yes, data can be obtained from relatively small samples, but one critical criterion for such studies is that the sampling be random. Drawing a conclusion about the general population of camera owners based on a small number of people who’ve chosen to sell their gear online simply is not valid. I realize you’re probably incapable of admitting that your observations are anecdotal, but they are.

When it comes to the R3, look at it from a person who is not heavily invested or in my case most of my gear stolen and only have a few things left.

Can you honestly say you believe that most people who would be considering an R3, a1 or Z9 would be ‘not heavily invested’ in a system or have had most of their gear recently stolen? Sorry, but it seems completely unrealistic to me that any meaningful number of people considering one of these cameras costing more than $5500 would be in that scenario.

As I stated earlier, if you want to buy an a1 or the Fuji MF, just do it. Why should anyone but you care? Whether switching is as common as your observations suggest or not shouldn’t matter at all.

[neuroanatomist]

Warning: humor intended. Read at your own risk. You have been warned.

Another reason is 8k displays are gonna be more common in the future and it be future proofing your images or vids.

Yes, I should probably delete all the images of my first child taken with a 4 MP camera and the standard definition videos of her birth and first steps because they just weren’t future proof. All your 1Ds III shots must also be deleted as well, of course. 21 MP is just too low. In fact, that’s true of 50 MP as well. The Phase One XF IQ4 has a 150 MP sensor, but if we’re all being honest here the only real possible option for anyone who cares about image detail and future proofing is the Hasselblad H6D-400C Multi-Shot that can produce composited images at 400 MP. Don’t settle for less, anything else is a compromise.

Egad, I just had a horrible thought. When 3D images become the norm, all of this 2D crap will need to be deleted, too…even the 400 MP stuff.

But you know, we watched an old Christmas movie on DVD last week…gasp, yes – DVD. Pathetically low 480i resolution source played back on a 4K TV. Astoundingly, we managed to suffer through it without anyone complaining about the abysmal quality. So perhaps there’s at least a shred of hope for all of us poor, blighted souls who aren’t shooting at 400 MP.

/sarcastic rant

[HDNitehawk]

Given the trends recently (the real ones extrapolated from actual data, that is), Sony is losing ground.

How would you explain Sony's sales data for this year. For the previous six months before Sept 30 2021 Still and Video Camera sales were up from 136 million Yen the previous year 2020 to 221 million yen in 2021. This doesn't sound like a division that is loosing ground. A 62% jump.

Canon boasted 356 in 2021 vs 472 in 2022 for the same period and boasted a 32.6% increase.
Canon put this information out for its Imaging Business Unit which supplies other things beyond cameras.

[Fast Glass]

Warning: humor intended. Read at your own risk. You have been warned.


Yes, I should probably delete all the images of my first child taken with a 4 MP camera and the standard definition videos of her birth and first steps because they just weren’t future proof. All your 1Ds III shots must also be deleted as well, of course. 21 MP is just too low. In fact, that’s true of 50 MP as well. The Phase One XF IQ4 has a 150 MP sensor, but if we’re all being honest here the only real possible option for anyone who cares about image detail and future proofing is the Hasselblad H6D-400C Multi-Shot that can produce composited images at 400 MP. Don’t settle for less, anything else is a compromise.

Egad, I just had a horrible thought. When 3D images become the norm, all of this 2D crap will need to be deleted, too…even the 400 MP stuff.

But you know, we watched an old Christmas movie on DVD last week…gasp, yes – DVD. Pathetically low 480i resolution source played back on a 4K TV. Astoundingly, we managed to suffer through it without anyone complaining about the abysmal quality. So perhaps there’s at least a shred of hope for all of us poor, blighted souls who aren’t shooting at 400 MP.

/sarcastic rant

Really? Seriously, this is beyond uncalled for.

You have have been taking out of context everything I say, I feel like I'm arguing with a troll at this point with a serious ego.

I don't even know what to say except you need to mellow out. You have taken this way past what was ever meant to be. Your opinion is the only right one and you are just bent are starting an argument at this point. You might call it a sarcastic rant, it's just being argumentative.

To respond at your seriously narrowminded post. Yes, there is a thing called future proofing. In this case trying to take images that can take advantage of 8K monitors in the future. Just because you don't care to do so doesn't make it wrong.

This extends in many ways to imaging and technology.

[neuroanatomist]

How would you explain Sony's sales data for this year. For the previous six months before Sept 30 2021 Still and Video Camera sales were up from 136 million Yen the previous year 2020 to 221 million yen in 2021. This doesn't sound like a division that is loosing ground. A 62% jump.

Recovery from initial pandemic-induced declines. Revenues for the 6 months prior to 30Sep for Still and Video Cameras went from 200 million yen in 2019 to 136 million yen in 2020, a 32% drop the year before the 62% gain. Canon’s Imaging revenue similarly had a 16% drop from 2019 to 2020 then a 32% gain from 2020 to 2021.

Overall though, the ILC market continues to shrink, and Sony’s slice of the market pie is shrinking faster than the market as a whole.

[neuroanatomist]

I guess I touched a nerve there, Fast Glass, sorry.

Your context is clear. You want more MP, so should everyone. To get more MP, LOTS and LOTS of people are switching to Sony, Sony revolutionized the camera industry and anyone who doesn’t do what Sony is doing will be left behind. It’s a sentiment more commonly seen on DPReview, and as in this case, never backed up with any actual data. In fact, the data show the opposite is true. Canon remains the dominant market leader, with sales nearly equal to all others combined, and Canon continues to gain. Sony is gaining overall, but less than Canon. Nikon is the big loser over the past few years (and they’re hit harder by that at the corporate level, since cameras are ~1/3 of their business).

It’s hard when facts contradict our opinions, but that’s life. We can choose to change our opinions to match the facts, or we can continue to believe we’re right in the face of evidence to the contrary. It would be better if the latter attitude was restricted only to discussions of camera sales, but sadly that’s not the case and the country and the world are all the worse for it.

That said, I see no point in further discussion on this issue.

[Kayaker72]

As a moderator...let's move off of the back and forth here, especially anything getting personal. Still plenty to discuss productively.

Thank you....

[Karsaa]

I know there is people that's say 24mp is enough. Only because you are used to low MP and there is not another viable option. You give the option and nobody will want to go back.

i can honestly say that for me this quite opposite. I had 50mp 5dsr, switched to 5div and now i am using R6 and not very easily going back to higher pixels. If i would shoot more macros and landscapes, sure, would be nice to have the extra pixels to peep. But since i don't the current MP is the right for me.

[HDNitehawk]

Overall though, the ILC market continues to shrink, and Sony’s slice of the market pie is shrinking faster than the market as a whole.

Sony is gaining overall, but less than Canon. Nikon is the big loser over the past few years (and they’re hit harder by that at the corporate level, since cameras are ~1/3 of their business).

These two statements seems contradictory. Can you explain what source you use that Sony is shrinking faster?

[neuroanatomist]

These two statements seems contradictory. Can you explain what source you use that Sony is shrinking faster?

Global ILC market share, which is assessed by a major Japanese market research firm and usually published in one of the Japanese financial papers (Nikkei or Financial Times), then picked up by various photo websites. The report comes out in late summer for the prior calendar year, so definitely a lagging indicator. That was the source for Canon gaining a relative 13% of the MILC market over Sony in 2020 (a 6% gain for Canon and a 7% loss for Sony). For overall ILC, Sony gained a bit over 2%, Canon closer to 4%.