Need quick Canon 70d advice

[HDNitehawk]

Hello Sir.... I have about $1200.00 on hand at the moment... and being retired... don't want to make a purchase error.... also wonder about the 7D II ... you mentioned you have one. How do you like it? I've read it's built like a tank.... has more focus points, ... but IQ not much better than the 70d. ???? Also, .. in reality, .. what IS THE SCOOP about focus points??? Does more get better photos? I am often asked to take shots of groups at church... and was hoping more points would do a better job. I usually had HORRIBLE results, .. and a very tough time getting several faces in groups to all be clear. Thanks so much

I like the 7D II, but I like my full frame cameras more.

The 7D II has a better AF system than the 70D, would it benefit you? If I were taking pictures of groups at church maybe not. I would probably be using single shot single point AF mode and using only the center point. I would only need 1 point not 65.

Some people use the multiple points rather than focus and recompose. (focus and recompose where you hold the shutter half way, make focus at your subject and then move your view to your liking before you click) You can toggle the AF point to where you like using single point.

If however you are shooting moving objects all the time it would probably help.
The 7D II is weather sealed, but with the lenses you have that probably isn't going to matter. You are probably not shooting in the rain.
The 7D II does not have the flip screen and it doesn't have touch screen.
It is geared toward Action and Sports with its high frame rate and AF system.

Someone said the 70d could do a Auto Focus Adjustment for lenses. This would be important for me but for most consumers it would be beyond what they would normally do.

I am often asked to take shots of groups at church... and was hoping more points would do a better job. I usually had HORRIBLE results, .. and a very tough time getting several faces in groups to all be clear. Thanks so much

Sounds more like a depth of field issue than a focus issue. Use a larger aperture on your widest lens setting. (15mm at f/4 10' from subject gives you infinity)
Here is a DOF calculator

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

The few hundred dollars for the 70D over the t5i will give you a 4 or 5 year newer sensor.

All three of these have excellent live view shooting (using the screen to focus) and video modes. With the 70D and t5i you get a flip screen that really helps.

[Dave Throgmartin]

Yes Dave, I have a 430EX and a 580EX II already. Also, what are YOUR thoughts on the 7D II ? Reviews say it's more "pro" but little IQ differences.

Full disclosure: I use the 6D and 60D and I'm not experienced with either the 7D II or 70D. Everything I've read about, and samples I've seen from, the 70D suggests it is an outstanding camera.

The 7D II appears more intended for wild life and sport shooters.

Davae

[Silkylead]

So, If I understand more focus points wont necessarily make more faces clear in group shots..... and maybe I'm spending more money on a 7D Mk ii but may not get better photos? And, perhaps the 70D would serve me just fine? I tried a 70d out last weekend, and although not every picture was in focus... but the touch screen focusing was indeed a hoot!

[Kayaker72]

So, If I understand more focus points wont necessarily make more faces clear in group shots.....

Exactly. Think of the number of focus points as the number of options to where the center of the focus plane is located within your composed frame. You could have it in the center, far left, top left, far right, etc, etc, etc (65 different locations in any given scene). But, what you described sounds more like an issue with the width of the focus plane, or depth of field. The width can be very small and everything outside the focus plane will be out of focus or very wide. To have more of a scene all in focus, you typically need to use smaller aperture values (f/8 to f/22, etc), depending upon your focal length. For specifics, I would consult the calculator HDNitehawk already provided.

[HDNitehawk]

So, If I understand more focus points wont necessarily make more faces clear in group shots..... and maybe I'm spending more money on a 7D Mk ii but may not get better photos? And, perhaps the 70D would serve me just fine? I tried a 70d out last weekend, and although not every picture was in focus... but the touch screen focusing was indeed a hoot!

The 7D II doesn't have the touch screen but its live view focus is very effective. It is an option I would like to see on some of the high end cameras. The flip and the touch. It may sound like a gimmick but I find myself all the time in a position that I can't get my face to the camera.

You will get better pictures out of the 7D II if you use it for what it is intended.

Keep in mind we do not know your skill level and what you shoot, or if you shoot in manual or automatic modes. My wife does fine with the t5i but it has the running man, mountain and face setting on top. She only has to choose one for landscape, portraits or action. The 7D II doesn't have that and is geared toward individuals that are dedicated to the hobby, on this forum you will find most shooting in manual modes. But if you are shooting in the automatic modes and not the manual you would probably not benefit form the 7D II.

Kayaker72 gave you a good description of depth of field.

[Silkylead]

The 7D II doesn't have the touch screen but its live view focus is very effective. It is an option I would like to see on some of the high end cameras. The flip and the touch. It may sound like a gimmick but I find myself all the time in a position that I can't get my face to the camera.

You will get better pictures out of the 7D II if you use it for what it is intended.

Keep in mind we do not know your skill level and what you shoot, or if you shoot in manual or automatic modes. My wife does fine with the t5i but it has the running man, mountain and face setting on top. She only has to choose one for landscape, portraits or action. The 7D II doesn't have that and is geared toward individuals that are dedicated to the hobby, on this forum you will find most shooting in manual modes. But if you are shooting in the automatic modes and not the manual you would probably not benefit form the 7D II.

Kayaker72 gave you a good description of depth of field.

I would say my skill level is somewhere in the moderate area. I mostly shoot landscapes, and close-up's of strange things.... animals.... in-animate objects.... nature ... things of that nature. I have a number of friends that suggest shooting in AV mode.... but that really doesn't help me learn the way I would like (I'm 67 yrs. old) ... so I've been concentrating on working in Manual mode. By the nature of the beast... I find myself HAVING to use my 580 EX II flash a lot... especially in group settings in church.... but you just can't always do that cause it ruins the scene... or is too disruptive. As the whole world knows though, it's hard to get decent low light photos .... hand held without a lot of noise. Hope that helps....

I know some will advise full frame, which will give the best low light performance, .. but then I'd have to start completely over with lenses too, .. and my budget just won't allow that. And, by way of admission, I really don't understand what Kayaker72 means about focus points. ???

[HDNitehawk]

He is talking about the focus points the camera has. For instance the 7D II has 65, the 70D has 19. You can select in your AF menu to use 1 single point in the middle, multiple points or all the points. You can scroll around with the little joy stick if you are using a single point and pick one wherever you want. That is where the lens will focus.

By default your camera will come using all the points. When I get my camera the first thing I do is set it to only use the center point and adjust it when I need to do something else. Some leave it on and always use all points. If you leave it on it may focus on the closest thing it finds.

Your camera focusing isn't always what would cause some people to be in focus and some out in a group. You may have enough Depth of Field but the AF system choose the closest thing. With one point you can focus on the area or spot you want to be the center of your focus.

If you do not plan on shooting fast moving things, sports, birds, running kids you would probably be as well off with the 70D. 19 points scattered over the screen are still enough for still objects.

[Silkylead]

Thank you sir. My budget is more geared to the 70d ...hopefully it will be a smart decision. And if video isn't my real goal...it seems like a body only decision ...using my 15-85 lens is a smart choice. I've read that there isn't a lot of difference in iq between the 70d and 7D ii. ... .... so I guess my last concern would be should I wait for an upgrade to the 70d ...
But that may be a while....and it's hard to be without a camera!

[Anthony M]

I just bought a refurb 70D for $717, I believe that the 70D can be had for under $750 with the 18-135 STM, which is a fine lens.
The 70D is a replacement for my 60D, which I've just sold. I don't expect it to hold a candle to my 6D, at least as far as IQ.

I bought it for a couple of reasons. The first and foremost is for my video work. While it's not going to have quite the quality of the 6D, it will certainly be easier to use, and I can actually focus the camera, and don't have to break out my follow focus.

The second reason is that it's basically the same AF system of the 7D(1). Just to throw it out there, when the 7D came out people were having problems with its complex AF system, all those points and all those settings. Steep learning curve! Of course, compared to the 7DmkII, it's downright primitive. For my purposes however, it's perfect! I recently got the Tamron 150-600, and as much as I enjoy it on the 6D, the additional reach, along with a much, much better overall AF system and fast burst rate will be just what the doctor ordered. The lens needs a fair amount of light to be at its best, and what a coincidence! So does the camera. A match made in heaven, as was the Tamron and the 7D before the new one came out.

There's also a couple of things I like about the 70D that the 7DmkII doesn't have (for better or worse). First, the articulated screen. Once you use one, you start liking it. I don't have to crawl on my knees for some shots, and I can also hold the camera over my head. I thought this would be a useless feature on my 60D, and I fell in love with it. The second thing is that the camera is smaller and lighter than the 7D's. All metal build is great. Plastic is wonderful. Plastic doesn't scuff. The paint doesn't wear off, it's black all the way through. It bounces. It doesn't dent. Once you get over the not feeling like a tank, you start to appreciate it not weighing as much as a tank.

Honestly, you would be very hard pressed to find any IQ difference between the 7DmkII and the 70D. In fact, the difference between these and the last generation sensors is pretty subtle. I've got photos I took with my 60D, heck, my XTi that are just as nice as my 6D.

I had every intention of getting the 7DmkII, and then I re-read about the 70D. And as much as I wanted the latest and greatest, the 70D made the most sense for what I use it for. The 6D will still be my go-to for stills. But for video, the 70D has advantages over the 7DmkII, and the 19 cross point AF system is every bit as complicated as I really feel like dealing with.

You might want to consider the refurbs if they're still available. Basically brand new cameras, or with almost no use with the advantage of having been checked out and tuned by hand. With a $200 plus savings, that could help pay for a flash or a 24mm pancake!

[Kayaker72]

Hi Silkylead.....

Below are images of the AF points of the 70D vs 7D II AF points. The camera is capable of focusing on each single point or using multiple points to achieve focus:

70D:

7DII

So, you can see that the 7DII has 65 vs the 19 AF points of the 70D and that they are spread out further across the frame. This is very helpful, especially, as others have noted, for wildlife photography.

But, it doesn't seem like that is what you need. The 70D is a very capable camera. As mentioned, refurbished cameras go on sale all the time. I just checked, and it is currently soil out in body only, but is available in kits with different lenses. So, you could buy the kit and then sell the lens if you do not want it. Or wait for a refurb to go on sale again, which happens every couple of months. I own two lenses that were bought from the refurbished store, both are excellent.

For your low light needs, you may want to keep your eye out for lenses with wider apertures to supplement your 50 f/1.8. I would consider the 24 f/2.8, 28, f/2.8, 35 f/2 IS, 85 f/1.8, and 100 f/2, depending on which focal length you may use.

Good luck.

Edit---the 70D has popped up as available at the refurb store.