6D Announced (sort of)

[HDNitehawk]

Out of curiosity what do you guys hate about it? The price is identical. The 1.5 FPS difference? The 4MP? The extra AF points? All of it put together? Something else?

I think the Camera has it's place. If they had marketed it differently it would be accepted more favorably. If the 5D II was not available new right now this camera would have dropped right in a niche. No doubt they kept the 5D II in the market to fill the niche until this one came along. That is the problem, people will view this as a replacement to the 5D II not a camera filling a new void. As far as this body goes it doesn't really matter to me because I will probably never consider this camera in my kit, but maybe CAJ would have performed better in the last 9 months if marketing was more on the ball with body releases.

[Dr Croubie]

I don't mind it compared to a new 5D2, if the prices *were* identical there'd be no problem, and i'd probably even pick the 6D (if only because it'll have a new sensor, hopefully less noise?).

But a new 5D2 comes in under $2k these days, and used go down to $1200-1400 depending on condition. Against that, a new 6D can't compete, if it means getting a 24-105 'free' (as it were) for the price of a 6D body-only.
I don't care about fps or AF, that's what my 7D is for. Having to invest another $100 or so in SD cards also doesn't help the situation, it's like this 6D is for people upgrading from xxD and xxxD, and not for 7D owners. (although then there's another paradox, lower-end body owners are more likely to have Efs glass, 7D owners might have more FF-compatibles)

[Dave Throgmartin]

Based off the posted specs, my comparison of 5D3 vs 6D vs D600

Resolution -- D600 wins with 24 MP versus 22 5D3 and 20 6D
Frame rate -- 5D3 6 per second, D600 5.5 and 6D 4.5
ISO capability -- Per posted samples on the net D600 is very competitive versus 5D3. 6D is an unknown.
Dynamic range -- Typically Nikon wins. I don't know that anyone knows for sure, but it is likely D600 wins this comparison.
Autofocus -- 5D3 61 points of world class AF, D600 39 points, and 6D 11 points.
Viewfinder -- 5D3 and D600 both 100%, 6D unknown but is likely less than 100%
Max shutter -- 5D3 1/8000, D600 1/4000, 6D unknown
Build -- 5D3 easily wins this, D600 still has partial magnesium alloy. 6D is noted as being "weather sealed" and APS-C sized, the construction is unknown
Micro focus adjust -- 5D3 has it, D600 has it, 6d unknown

5D3 is better than D600, but there isn't IMHO a huge difference per the above. For $1400 less the D600 is quite competitive. It is early but the D600 looks to be a substantial step up from the 6D. The frame rate is a bigger improvement from D600 to 6D than 5D3 to D600. Autofocus quality is a bigger improvement from D600 to 6D than 5D3 to D600 also.

Let me say I'm not trying to irritate anyone. The 5D3 is an outstanding camera. The 6D will be good as well, but... D600 appears to win the comparison easily versus it...

Dave

[Dave Throgmartin]

This camera is VERY unimpressive in my humble opinion and I think I'm pretty much their target market.

Canon's offering is completely non-competitive versus the D600. 6D = fail

Dave

Based off the posted specs, my comparison of 5D3 vs 6D vs D600

Resolution -- D600 wins with 24 MP versus 22 5D3 and 20 6D
Frame rate -- 5D3 6 per second, D600 5.5 and 6D 4.5
ISO capability -- Per posted samples on the net D600 is very competitive versus 5D3. 6D is an unknown.
Dynamic range -- Typically Nikon wins. I don't know that anyone knows for sure, but it is likely D600 wins this comparison.
Autofocus -- 5D3 61 points of world class AF, D600 39 points, and 6D 11 points.
Viewfinder -- 5D3 and D600 both 100%, 6D unknown but is likely less than 100%
Max shutter -- 5D3 1/8000, D600 1/4000, 6D unknown
Build -- 5D3 easily wins this, D600 still has partial magnesium alloy. 6D is noted as being "weather sealed" and APS-C sized, the construction is unknown
Micro focus adjust -- 5D3 has it, D600 has it, 6d unknown

5D3 is better than D600, but there isn't IMHO a huge difference per the above. For $1400 less the D600 is quite competitive. It is early but the D600 looks to be a substantial step up from the 6D. The frame rate is a bigger improvement from D600 to 6D than 5D3 to D600. Autofocus quality is a bigger improvement from D600 to 6D than 5D3 to D600 also.

Let me say I'm not trying to irritate anyone. The 5D3 is an outstanding camera. The 6D will be good as well, but... D600 appears to win the comparison easily versus it...

Dave

I was complaining quite a bit before... but now that I've had time to take a step back I think this camera could be very good if:

-- The high ISO performance is in the ballpark of the 5D3.
-- The -3 EV center autofocus point delivers as hoped.

There are some nice things here. Silent function could be useful in a number of circumstances. Wifi could be useful for tethered shooting along with sending images to other wireless gadgets.

Is the D600 better? Yeah, I think so. Does it have an EF mount to use excellent Canon lenses? No

Dave

[Dr Croubie]

Yeah, the D600 does look very tempting, that plus 2 nice lenses or 1 very nice lens would easily beat a 5D3 body-only, were I starting from scratch.

And it's not that the 6D looks bad compared to the D600, like you say most specs are still unannounced (i'd like to know if it has interchangeable focussing screens, that's another plus for the 5D2 if the 6D can't), the D600 is also pricier, but it has the specs to justify the extra $400 over the 6D.

I'm still comparing it to the 5D2 though, as Canon's 'entry level FF'.
Sure, the 5D2 may be (if not, then soon) discontinued, but there's almost nothing to count as an 'upgrade'. Or at least, 5D2 to 6D, for every upgrade there also a spec that's a downgrade. It's a replacement, surely, but it's as much of an upgrade that you get in an EFs 18-55 IS I -> II.
And if there's very little between them, they may as well be the same camera, and for that i'll take a used one over a new one.
Maybe the noise or DR turns out to be streets ahead of the 5D2, even enough to justify a few $hundred or so? Then it'll be almost into beating the 5D3 (for IQ), but I just don't see canon doing that.

[Dr Croubie]

And now I see that DPReview has specs out

The ones that count:
RAW, Fine JPEG, Normal JPEG. no sRAW or mRAW? maybe it's not stated, but meh, i'd only shoot fullRAW anyway.
New LCD, by the looks. from my few runins with a 5D2, i didn't hate the screen, but if it's better, yay. Touchsreen i'm on the fence as to whether I care. I'd probably use it if I had it, but i'm not excited.
97% 0.71x pentaprism. 97% is enough, 100% would have been nice though. Thankfully it's not a pentamirror, or it'd be dead in the water.
1/8000s, beats D600, but I don't think i've ever shot that high (except f/1.2 in full sun, not very often).
4.5fps.
3-frame bracketing.
Same video as 7D? (I don't use it anyway, so don't know the difference.)
Built-In Wifi (this should keep iToy users happy, as they don't have usb anymore).
Built-In GPS may be mandatory for some, i don't much care. (although 'Built-In' makes most sense on a 7D/5D3/1DX, where an adapter would reduce much-needed sealing)
'splash and dust' resistant, sounds somewhere between 60D and 5D2.


So in short (until we see the IQ results), it's a 5D2 with a touchscreen, gps, wifi. Besides those 3, there's not much seperating them besides slight incremental upgrades (and a few downgrades)...

[neuroanatomist]

Those of you stating 'I'm the target market,' and shooting with a 7D - I disagree. Canon seems to be making a concerted effort to shift consumers up a segment. Take the 60D - those with a 40D or 50D were 'pushed' to the 7D as an upgrade, while the 60D was made attractive as an upgrade for Rebel/xxxD users. There are many features (or lack thereof) consistent with this, most obvious is the card media. I see the 5DIII as the FF body upgrade for 7D and 5DII, and the 6D as targeted to 60D and Rebel users.

... Builtin Wifi+GPS (as to all the arguments in past bodies about how they "can't do it because of radio laws being different around the world', that seems to have gone).

Don't recall that as the reason (for GPS, at least) - rather, I heard the issue for GPS was the magnesium alloy shell (although that's probably bogus, too, as a thin antenna outside the shell would solve that).

[Kayaker72]

the 6D as targeted to 60D and Rebel users.

Yep, I think that about sums it up.

And it could be a genius move on Canon's behalf (second time in a few days I've used genius on this forum..hmmm). But they are faced with a maturing market (nearly everyone that wants a digital camera has one, very few to no film folks left to convert, and cell phones taking a chunk from the P&S market). So, how do you "grow" in a maturing market? Entice your customers to upgrade. In this case I bet their largest group of "customers" own Rebels or xxD bodies and EFS lenses. Get them to buy FF and their first EF or even "L" lenses=growth/sales. Get them invested in Canon glass, loyalty. As xx% grow tired of the limitations of the 6D yet they now have Canon EF lenses, they turn to the 5D III or 1DX =sales.

I don't want to sound like I heeping too much praise on Canon, but, it isn't hard to see what they might be thinking.

That said, I like options and I will consider the 6D if/when I ever go FF. I suspect I will consider it very briefly before I either get a 5DIII (great price BK) or save a lot of pennies and get a 1DX. The thing that I suspect will keep me from buying a 6D will be the build quality/weather sealing. I take care of my camera, but I use it alot and in all types of environments. And I don't want to worry about it.

EDIT--after looking at the descriptions that have come out since my post, genius best describes the niche and not the camera (I did say "could be a genius move")....the 6D does seem to lack more than I thought it would. But it will be interesting to see how it performs and what reviewers, such as Bryan, think.

[gbc]

Those of you stating 'I'm the target market,' and shooting with a 7D - I disagree. Canon seems to be making a concerted effort to shift consumers up a segment. Take the 60D - those with a 40D or 50D were 'pushed' to the 7D as an upgrade, while the 60D was made attractive as an upgrade for Rebel/xxxD users. There are many features (or lack thereof) consistent with this, most obvious is the card media. I see the 5DIII as the FF body upgrade for 7D and 5DII, and the 6D as targeted to 60D and Rebel users.

Agreed. Was kind of shocked that it was SD card only. If this had been out when I upgraded from my Rebel Xsi, i definitely would've gone for it. But as a 7D user, I'd say this would be more of a FF compliment. I wouldn't make it my main camera body over my 7D at this point. Really disappointed by only 11 AF points too.

And an improved LCD is all fine and good, I guess, but that's really low on the list for me as far as needed improvements. Glad they didn't include the touchscreen though. Just unnecessary for me.

[conropl]

Those of you stating 'I'm the target market,' and shooting with a 7D - I disagree. Canon seems to be making a concerted effort to shift consumers up a segment. Take the 60D - those with a 40D or 50D were 'pushed' to the 7D as an upgrade, while the 60D was made attractive as an upgrade for Rebel/xxxD users. There are many features (or lack thereof) consistent with this, most obvious is the card media. I see the 5DIII as the FF body upgrade for 7D and 5DII, and the 6D as targeted to 60D and Rebel users.

John:
I think you are probably correct, but I think their logic may be flawed. The probelm with targeting Rebel users is that they packaged all those Rebels with EF-S lenses. If they want to upgrade to a FF camera, then they need to unload their EF-S glass and start over. If you are going to push people to start over in there lens collection, then you better have a camera that out performs the compitition or you will drive them to the compitition. The way I look at the spec's, and I if needed to start over with new glass, then I would seriously be looking at Nikon to get better DR, AF, resolution, etc..

In the past when they designed decent upgrades for Rebel users (10D, 20D, 40D, 50D, 60D), they could still use their EF-S lenes... so it was still cheaper to maintain the Canon loyalty. And over time they would get a collection of better glass and eventually head towards FF if it suited them. This route to get Rebel users to jump to FF seems a bit risky and may force to jump to Nikon instead.