Does price trump all?

[TimT]

In my area there are a couple of local shops that know cameras inside out. And I try to use them if they are at all close to the good Internet places. That way I'm not sending money to some big shop in New York. More importantly, I get to try things out at the store, compare different lenses, and pick the brains of folks who may know stuff that will save me from making mistakes.


That said, I come to the store knowing what Amazon or Adorama is charging. If my local folks are charging two hundred more for some something, I will point out the price difference and ask if they can get closer to the Internet price. And if they can work with me, it means I have the best of both worlds.

[Cory]

As mentioned by others... I'll buy from what I know to be a reputable dealer with the best price. I see prices that beat B&H by large amounts quite often, but when you look into them they are, indeed, too good to be true.


I'd say my general rule is around 10%. If someone gives me consitantly better service than another business and is less that 10% more I'll pay for the service (good example was CompUSA vs Best Buy - CompUSA was a little more, but Best Buys employees tend to be largely clueless about their own stores products, whereas CompUSA generally had knowledgable employees).

Did you know that you are evading taxes illegally?


The state of California (as well as my state and almost every other state, in fact) requires you to track all your out of state purchases, calculate how much sales tax you *would* have paid, then write them a check:


[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_tax]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_tax[/url]


Most people are not even aware that they are illegally evading taxes when they buy online or by telephone without sending the tax into their State Dept. of Revenue.
<div style="CLEAR: both"]</div>

Unless I'm mistaken it is the advertiser that is responsible for the taxes being collected and that California asks it's residents "Voluntarily" add up the taxes they would have paid and mail a check in to pay them. Hence, the buyer is breaking no law or doing anything illegal.

[Joel Eade]

I would love to be able to browse a store for all the camera gear but I live (probably like alot of others) in a relatively rural area....ie no camera shop in town. I would have to drive about 90 miles one way to look through a store. No feasible way to do it without spending a ton of free time on the road,not to mention gas money. On-line shopping is much much easier and in most cases you can't beat the price. As far as service goes I bet most small shops would have to send lenses and cameras back to the manufacturer anyway for any type of significant repair. I've had my 40D and lenses for 2-3 years now with no problems at all....chances of needing service on these well built items is low in my opinion. I'm sure it happens but I'd rather box it up and send it than drive 90 miles to drop it off at a dealer.


Just my two centavos...

[Daniel Browning]

Unless I'm mistaken it is the advertiser that is responsible for the taxes being collected

In this case you are mistaken. The seller is only responsible to collect taxes if they have a physical presence (e.g. brick and mortar store) in the same state as the buyer. Of course, many states are trying to get legislation passed to change that (unsuccessfully, so far).

California asks it's residents "Voluntarily" add up the taxes they would have paid and mail a check in to pay them.

You misunderstand what "voluntary" means in this context. It does not mean "I volunteer to owe taxes." You owe the taxes no matter what. But the state (currently) has no way of proving how much you owe. If you never bought anything out of state, you would not owe anything. If you bought $100,000 out of state, you would owe $10,000. They can't tell either way. So they require you to "volunteer" the information honestly.


It's like working for a company that doesn't report to the IRS. If they pay you $100,000, but they never tell the IRS (via W-2 form), then there's no way for the IRS to know that you owe $30,000 in taxes. Legally, you are required to "voluntarily" inform the IRS that you were paid $100,000 and you are enclosing a check for $30,000 in taxes. The only difference is that the IRS is more shrewd and powerful than the states and it will catch you more often, whereas the states can only rely on your complete honesty.


What's funny is that many people don't even know that they owe such taxes. Of those who know, there is a high percentage that willingly choose to evade payment, simply because they know they can't get caught.

Hence, the buyer is breaking no law or doing anything illegal.

It is tax evasion. Pure and simple. Most people don't *know* they are evading taxes, but it's still tax evasion, just like putting false information on your 1044.


Most states combine their use tax return with their income tax return, so that you cannot file your tax return without signing your name to the part that says "I did not buy anything out of state". There's another part that says "I did buy some things out of state. The total amount was $20,000 and I have I included $2,000 use tax payment", but fewer people check that box.


My state has no income tax, so we're required to file a Use Tax return every *month* to report the amount of out of state purchase and a check enclosed for an amount equal to what the sales tax would have been. Needless to say that no one does it. In fact, in the many years that I've been aware of the use tax requirements, I have never yet met one single person that was aware of it. Some of them are liable for tens of thousands of dollars in back taxes, not to mention the penalties and interest.

[Cory]

In this case you are mistaken. The seller is only responsible to collect taxes if they have a physical presence (e.g. brick and mortar store) in the same state as the buyer. Of course, many states are trying to get legislation passed to change that (unsuccessfully, so far).

Therefore only people ordering their equipment from a business which also has a brick and mortar store fall under your original statement. Don't mean to nit pick, but youfairly generically stated anyone in California purchasing anything out of state was evading taxes. Most those talking about mail order have not stated where they are making their purchases. Ifsomeone in Cali is ordering from someone like B&amp;H(a New York store) they are doing nothing wrong.


I'm in Washington, but I can't think of any company that is in my own state that I would end up mail ordering something from other than Amazon (and they are kind of an exception as they ONLY do mail order). An interesting question might be: If someone in Cali is ordering something from Amazon and Amazon is re-sellingit from a retailer in Cali... what are the legal responsibilities? Heh


Having to pay tax on orders from a business which has stores in your state I can see having to pay tax on, but the efforts to try and make people pay taxes on mail order purchases made from companies in other states is going too far. What happens if you WALK IN to Camera store in south Oregon buy a lens, then drivehome to northern Cali? Are they going to make you start paying taxes on that too? I don't see that they have any right to attempt to collect taxes on purchases like that.

[Daniel Browning]

Therefore only people ordering their equipment from a business which also has a brick and mortar store fall under your original statement.

You have it backwards. Online sellers with a location in your state *are* required to collect sales tax, and they always do. Web sites with no such location are *not* required to collect sales tax, so most of them don't.


When they don't collect the salestax, you are liable to send it in for yourself.

Don't mean to nit pick, but youfairly generically stated anyone in California purchasing anything out of state was evading taxes.

No. When someone buys out of state from a web site that charges sales tax, of course they are not evading taxes. They paid them at the time of sale. It's only when they don't pay the taxes at the end of the year (or within 1 month in some states) that they have evaded taxes.


In my post I specifically quoted and responded to the following:
<p style="padding-left: 30px;"]"I will buy all my lenses and
bodies from out of state stores with no sales tax (in california its
close to 10% right now)"

Ifsomeone in Cali is ordering from someone like B&amp;H(a New York store) they are doing nothing wrong.

Of course they are doing nothing wrong. As long as they calculate their tax liability and send a check to their state DOR. If they don't, then they are evading taxes illegally.

I'm in Washington, but I can't think of any company that is in my own state that I would end up mail ordering something from other than Amazon (and they are kind of an exception as they ONLY do mail order).

Howdy, neighbor! I live in Washington, too (Vancouver).


When you and I buy from Amazon.com, they charge us salestax at the time of purchase, so we don't have to calculate the tax and send in the form. But if we buy from all the other online web sites that don't charge sales tax, we are held liable to send the amount in directly to the Washington State Dept of Revenue ourselves by the 15th of the following month.


This is the form you are supposed to be filing every month, twelve times a year:


Washington State Consumer Use Tax Return Form


If you buy something on the 31st, you only have 15 days to send in the form before it becomes overdue and you become liable for penalties and interest. (Of course, most people have been buying things out of state without paying use tax for decades, so you can imagine the amount they owe!) Here is their little brochure about it:


Washington State Use Tax Brochure


The fact that you (and 99.9% of all of us Washingtonians) are evading taxes illegally is indisputable. Of course, you'll never get caught. And until now you didn't even know you were doing it. But that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal tax evasion, just like your boss paying you under the table instead of reporting your income to the IRS.


EDIT: [I see you edited your post with a few more questions. Here are the answers:]

An interesting question might be: If someone in
Cali is ordering something from Amazon and Amazon is re-sellingit from
a retailer in Cali... what are the legal responsibilities? Heh

It's simple. If Amazon collects the sales tax, then you don't have to do anything. If they don't, and the retailer in Cali doesn't either, then you have to send in the salestax yourself.

Having to pay tax on orders from a business which
has stores in your state I can see having to pay tax on, but the
efforts to try and make people pay taxes on mail order purchases made
from companies in other states is going too far.

Fair has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about what's *legal*. If you want to illegally evade taxes because you think the taxes are unfair, that's your choice. But it doesn't change the fact that you are still evading taxes illegally.

What happens if you
WALK IN to Camera store in south Oregon buy a lens, then drivehome to
northern Cali?

You must track the full amount that you spent, calculate what the tax rate would have been if you bought it locally (the city and zipcode where you put it "into use"), then send that amount into the state within one month. (Washington allows 15 days after the start of the next month, I'm not sure how much time California gives you, but certainly no more than 1 year.)

Are they going to make you start paying taxes on that
too?

"Start"? It has been that way for decades! The rise of mail order catalogs, TV buying, and Internet purchases have only increased the frequency with which people evade taxes.

I don't see that they have any right to attempt to collect taxes
on purchases like that.

Well, your personal views don't change the fact that it's tax evasion. If you want to see it changed, you'll have to change how you vote or get politically active about it.

[Cory]

Double posted. [:O]

[gunslinge]

Now a view from the other side. I work for a Mon and Pop type computer store, people buy from us, for service, local support, and not having to be on hold for hour and then talk to someone from India!! Our prices are not as low as Dell and HP, but we do not have excessive markup. We are not getting rich here!! We remove viruses from computers, and reload windows for 60 to 90, which cost less and done better than Staples or Best Buy. We have been in business for over 20 years, so our business plan is working. I alway buy local, if possible, it supports the local economy. If you need support for your product it will be cheaper in the long run. I do buy my camera equipment from B&amp;H, because of cost and the reputation for good service, and there is not a camera store of any kind within 90 miles of where I live.

[Rodger]

Gunslinge,


I'm glad you posted that view. I guess the shops around my area are just expensive. If a local shop has good reputation, cheaper costs, friendly service, I'm there in a heartbeat. But I guess that still means cost drives my decision.. haha.


Rodger

[Chuck Lee]

Does Price Trump All?


IMHO, Yes.


jlau, you did not enter a Bio so I do not know where you are from, but here in eastern Virginia, U.S. where I live there arejust a few camera stores left. Two years ago I bought a Tamron 17-50 f2.8 DII from a local shop near to where I work. I paid an additional fifty dollars for the lens but got to try multiple copies before I bought. That and the fact that I was heading to the State Fair the next day witha newly purchased used 20D was worth the extra coin. In that situation convenience trumped price. However, the shop that I bought it from is no longer in business. My buying one new lens from them could not stop the inevitable.


It is unfortunate, but obviously a fact that our buying habits as well as social habits are changing. The days of the corner drugstore, community hardware, and gas stations withattendants are gone. The local community has gone from our neighbors on the same street to a host offacebook and forumfriends located around the world. Our storefronts have gone from main street to Google. We as capitalists will migrate towards the outlets that offer the best value. It's the same reason I have driven Toyotas for 26 yearsand not a Chevy or Ford.


Personally, I buy my photographic goods online most of the time from Adorama. I can shop, review, rate, and purchase whatever I want, anytime, night or day. This convenience, coupled with lower than retailpricing, cannot be trumped by a local store no matter how good their customer service and prices may be. I have purchased photography goods locally, but only when it was very convenient or a must have that day. I don't think too many stores will survive on those purchasing habits alone.


IMHO, you are not in a pickle, as much as you are empathetic to the changing world and sense of community we all live in. I applaud you for that. The stark reality is that things change. You cango with thechange or you can buck it. You have to weigh the cost/benefit, which it sounds like you have. The choice, as always,is solely yours.[]