Has the M-Series Arrived?

[HDNitehawk]

Not far behind? Small advantages in a graph like this can be huge for pixel peepers on photo sites. The M5's sensor has Canon's highest pixel density in ILC. I am curious how it will fare on the 500mm. I wasn't interested in the original M since its sensor seemed to be closer to the old 7D. But this one might have potential if it fares as well as the 7D II.

My first impressions:
Let me qualify this, I used the camera last night at the wife's families Christmas / Birthday party, and played with it some at home. All in the evening with low light.


The M5 has two green box settings. Auto Mode (Scene Intelligent Auto) is crap for what it should do. This is a mode that anyone should be able to pick the camera up and take pictures, and they can, although the AF hunts far too much, the exposure fluctuates wildly and you can not turn off the annoying 2 second review. Try catching a Granddaughter kissing a 80+ year old Grandfather on the cheek you have to have great timing. By the time it hunts and gets focus, take the shot and review 4 seconds have passed. I could not find a setting in Auto Mode to turn off the 2 second review. If I were a first time buyer and were playing with the camera at the store, there is no way I would buy it.

The second green box setting is Hybrid Auto Mode, I didn't use it much but it has an option to get rid of the 2 second review. Why this matters? You are shooting in live view mode. If you are using the digital viewfinder you see exactly what you see on the screen. After you shoot you are looking at a picture for 2 seconds and it is impossible to recompose and shoot again.

The second problem or advantage (from certain perspectives) with the viewfinder is that you see exactly what you see in live view. If the camera is hunting exposure you are going dark to light, in focus out of focus. It is difficult to compose when you can't see the subject.

Unless there is an automatic option which I have not found, you have to manually open the flash.

Video seemed to work very well. I did have one issue, the placement of record button is in a location that it is easy to hit. I found video recording accidently several times.

Reviewing pictures with the viewfinder was interesting. For some reason shots had a 3d feel and it was similar to looking into a Viewmaster.

The tilt screen, while functional, is not on par with the t4i's tilt abilities. It is not as well designed or as functional.

I then shot in AV mode, set the camera to shoot at high speed, servo mode, touch to AF anywhere on screen and of course with these options review is off by default. The camera performed very well.

For IQ, I never downloaded a single picture. But zoomed in to max I had very good detail on eyelash and hair. I am optimistic that the IQ will be great as expected.

[Kayaker72]

Not far behind? Small advantages in a graph like this can be huge for pixel peepers on photo sites.

True and agreed. But, of course, the best camera is the one you have with you. One of the issues I have identified for myself is that there have been a couple of trips where I just took my iPhone. One trip to SoCal in particular I ended up watching a great sunset over the pier at Hermosa Beach. I tried to capture it with my iPhone. The final quality? Lets just say I haven't posted any of the images.

In terms of IQ and small advantages, I think it is fairly straightforward:

FF sensors > crop sensors > 1" sensors >>> camera phone sensors

And MF is likely better than FF. But, in the end, it is about have the best that you will have with you, or, where you will be satisfied.

For IQ, I never downloaded a single picture. But zoomed in to max I had very good detail on eyelash and hair. I am optimistic that the IQ will be great as expected.

Thanks for the impressions. I look forward to hearing more.

[Kayaker72]

FF sensors > crop sensors > 1" sensors >>> camera phone sensors

Just to put some numbers to the different sensor areas (mm2). Camera size in phones varies, but I found a couple of references for iPhone having 1/3.2" sensors.

iPhone: 1/3.2" sensor = 16 mm2 (5.8)
Common P&S: "2/3" sensor = 28 mm2 (4.9)
Canon G7X: 1" sensor = 116 mm2 (2.9)
Canon APS-C = 329 mm2 (1.4)
FF = 864 mm2

That is some pretty big differences in light gathering area.

EDIT: I just added P&S (2/3 sensor) and in () I put the number of times the surface area would need to be doubled to get to FF. So an iPhone surface area would need to be doubled 5.8 times to have the area of a FF camera.

Thus, if surface area is the only factor, and I have to think it is a pretty big factor, those are the "stops" better a FF sensor should be over each respective sensor size. Just playing with a few of Sony's recent releases on DXO mark (RX100 IV, A6500, A7R II), that holds close to true for tonal range, but is an overstatement for DR and SNR. But, the A7R II is also a 42 MP camera compared to 24 and 20 MP so other types of noise or what can be recorded in a 14 bit system might become limiting. Plus...well, DXO

[HDNitehawk]

Battery drain will be an issue. For a vacation camera i would need multiple batteries.

I have not done any testing on this, however it seems like the battery takes longer to charge.

Comparing the t4i, shooting jpg only. I can see the resolution advantage. The M5 seems to handle skin tones and reds better.

[Kayaker72]

So I am staying in the M ecosystem, but have gone a slightly different route. I bought the M3 and EVF when the combo had a $500 instant rebate. As the reviews of the M5 continue to come it, I would say it is a better camera. In particular, faster more accurate AF, the AF point selection on LCD screen while looking through EVF, and a few ergonomic features. However, looking at sensor performance, other than DR at ISO <400, the M5 and M3 were very similar and both better than my original EOS M "classic." The negatives about the M5 were really about size, weight, and cost. Basically, I wanted a small, light body for travel and non-photo oriented hiking, or a second body to have on me if I suddenly want a wide angle shot when I have a telephoto on my 5DIII. That was the original intent of the M, and it worked pretty well, but it was 4% of my 2016 shots for a reason. So, the M3 gives me a tilt screen, faster AF, ability to add an EVF when wanted, Wi-Fi, etc, while still being smallish, lightish, and fitting in my Dashpoint 30 (depending on lens). All for an expected investment of ~$350, ~$170 if you subtract the EVF, after I sell my M1.

As a new M body is rumored to be released in February, I suspect it will be a replacement for the M3 introducing DPAF and some of the features of the M5 into that smaller form factor without a built in EVF. I might eventually want this body, but it is tough to buy a camera that doesn't exist and I suspect that its price point will be $750-$850, just for the body, if it is ever released. In addition to having DPAF in a smaller form factor, the second feature that could really interest me is the ability to charge through the USB port, something on the G"x"X series cameras. It would be great to not travel with a battery charger.

[HDNitehawk]

I had a chance to use the m5 for my stepdaughters wedding last weekend.
IQ of the jpg's out of the camera is adequate.
However the battery was almost dead at the end of the wedding. I had only shot 25 photos and about 15 minutes worth of video. Battery life is going to be an annoying issue.

[Kayaker72]

I had a chance to use the m5 for my stepdaughters wedding last weekend.
IQ of the jpg's out of the camera is adequate.
However the battery was almost dead at the end of the wedding. I had only shot 25 photos and about 15 minutes worth of video. Battery life is going to be an annoying issue.

Something almost seems wrong. I've heard GPS can really drain batteries, but I do not believe the M5 has GPS. I wonder about wifi or Bluetooth?

For a quick reference, the M3 has the same battery as the M5. I am still on my first charge: 125 shots, about 5 min of video, and a ton of time with the screen on as I went through the menus, played with the wifi connection, and the EVF. I just lost a bar last night, which in Canon M3 lingo is "Slightly depleted but still sufficient."

Edit: Just did a search. Only significant reference I found to battery drain on the M5 was on dpreview forums. The solution that was offered was that it is continuous AF that drains the battery fast. But glancing at a couple of reviews, they didn't note a problem and mentioned getting a day or a couple of days of moderate shooting from the M5 on a single battery.

Also, there is an "eco" mode that is supposed to boost battery life.

All that said, something still seems off. I'd be tempted to run some tests, try a different battery, or contact Canon.

[HDNitehawk]

Obviously I will need a backup battery, so if it is the battery that will be an easy one to check.
I have seen other threads where battery drain is a complaint.
It stands to reason that the m5 would drain the battery faster than the m3, with the new viewfinder.

[Kayaker72]

HD - interesting real world handling issues that you have surfaced.

Agreed. I am probably more hoping that Rick got a bum battery. 15 min of video and 25 shots was be a severe limitation to the M5.

I have said a couple of times the basic functionality of the M5 on FF would be a great 6DII (mirrorless too). Same MP count, still oriented to lower light efforts. 4k would make it a gang buster for enthusiast vids.

I am in the middle of a full on system re-eval.

Seems like the 6D battery would be a big help

I'd be curious where you end up on the re-eval. While not a total system re-eval, I like my 5DIII too much, the ergonomics if nothing else. But I have been watching/reading reviews of other mirrorless systems before I settled in on the M3.

I have to say, the AF on the Sony (RX 100 V/A6500) is very impressive. But I disliked the user interface (both LCD and menus). Still thinking about the Sony RX100 V, as the AF was good.

I was impressed by the Fuji and Oly's as well. As you said, feature rich. But too expensive as a "niche" body that I was looking for.

To really digress , I've also looked at Nikon a bit. I've always, and still do, given Canon the overall edge in lenses, but Nikon's recent releases of the 105 f/1.4, 70-200 f/2.8, and 24-70 f/2.8 I think have helped close that gap a bit. Granted, Canon closed the gap with new sensor tech in the latest bodies. And then there is the whole reliability/customer service/maintenance edge

[Busted Knuckles]

LOL - which man'f has the reliability/customer service edge again? I don't have enough insight to opine thoughtfully on this topic.

The comment about "niche" sounds like an interesting debate. If I am in the niche - it is a pretty big niche....
* Don't charge anybody money for my photo output/activity.
* Virtually 100% image viewing on a screen vs. print - (that is the biggy as it is limited to 10 bit depth best case)
* Modest cropping for composition
* Poor photoshop skills, perhaps a bit of shadow/highlight push/pull
* When in doubt bracket the exposure
* Enough disposable income that a net 2-3k total cost for a system change is comprehensible (stings, but isn't fatal to the marriage)
* Would take my gear more often if it was smaller. (I do not buy the cramps my fingers comments as this means you are holding your camera vs. lens when exposing the shot and the right hand should have a very light touch - good thing I am equally dysfunctional with both hands)
* shoot 99.9% of the time in adequate light (I know every shot has shadows and highlights - back in the day, I used 11 zone construct for my B&W)

No doubt I like the feel, sound and feedback of the 5DIII on silent shutter mode (5Ds series even better), something very satisfying and visceral.
Really like my glass config. I could see 50% of it staying in my bag w/ an adapter. But having an option to have a really small "walking around" package that has top of the line feature set..... hmmmm..... Look at the relative size of a MF 24-70 equiv to that of a APS/FF. One fits into a purse/backpack without much fuss, the other.....

Regardless, looking forward to your wife's conference. If we can get onto the Orlando Wetlands Park that would be nifty (Circle B equiv but WAY bigger).

Happy clicks.

Mike

Post script. Having read my post - sort of begs the question what are you waiting for? Get a MF body, a 12-35 f2.8, an adapter and sell off the 50% of the glass that is redundant, etc. Hmmmmm.... thinking, thinking, thinking.

Great days to all

Mike