Here it is the 50D, what's next?

**Benjamin** · 07-14-2009, 01:39 AM

**Maleko** · 07-14-2009, 05:31 AM

Interesting stuff!

I have just ordered a 50D, I currently have a 350D...Old school or what! I contemplated getting the cheaper 40D, but the 50D was more appealing. Then I thought, should I wait for the 60D/7D? Well as there is no release date yet, it could be ages! and I really wanted a new camera for the summer! (got a few weddings to do this year). Also, the price sounds like it would be a bit steaper than the current 50D?

I think the 60D/7D will have to pack a few more extras for people to think WOW at it, like HD recording etc, more features to make people see a nice upgrade from there 40/50D.

But hey, I'm looking forward to my 50D Kit and my first L lens tomorrow

**Chris White** · 07-14-2009, 08:55 AM

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<p class="MsoNormal"]<span> I moved from film
to digital (real cameras, not point & shoot) with a 50D last November and
have been very pleased. I personally do not feel the need for video from my
still camera. I am from the school of “one
size does not fit all”. In other words, I feel that in order to try to do
everything well, nothing is done exceptionally. When I want video, I grab my
video camera; sometimes – as at my kids’ school functions – I use both.
<p class="MsoNormal"]<span> Since I purchased
my 50D close to the roll out, there was not a large price differential between
it and the 40D, less than $200, and I paid more than I would now. I knew that
would be the case as it always is with tech. I weighed the price against the Christmas
and school pictures I could take and feel for me it was a fair trade off verses
waiting for a lower price point.
<p class="MsoNormal"]<span> Although the price
difference is more compelling now as the 40D becomes phased out, I think I would
still go with the 50D. Despite the various complaints I have seen in various
forums, in my real world applications, it still continues to make me say “WOW”.
I can see myself getting a “refurbished” 40D as a second body as the price
drops, but I am still very pleased with my 50D. With my 70-200mm f/2.8 IS lens
it defines crisp! I hear the f/4 version is even sharper, but I needed the f/2.8
for inside and action and it performs very well. I recently shot an anniversary
mass and reception four our pastor and took nearly 200 photos. There were very,
very few that were not keepers.
<p class="MsoNormal"]<span> Like Ben, I am
always looking, but for the time being it is going to take a lot more to exceed
what I currently have.
<p class="MsoNormal"]Chris

**peety3** · 07-14-2009, 03:28 PM

I tell people that Canon has six models (nowadays):

Rugged pro FF "high res" camera

Rugged pro "half-crop" "mid res, high rate" camera

Studio FF "high res" camera

"Prosumer" crop camera

Consumer crop camera

Entry-level crop camera

The line-up (with the exception of the newer entry-level series) has been the same since the release of the 5D. Features tend to insert in the prosumer camera and then drift up before they drift down, but video took a different route as we all know.

There's a fairly obvious (and I claim logical) price tag progression through this line. Any deviations from this structure probably need a real strong motivating factor, or there's risk that the new creation might dilute the market for one of the existing models. That's not to say that the structure is perfect or even right...and I am absolutely clueless about the Nikon lineup.

**peety3** · 07-14-2009, 09:17 PM

I guess I could have and should have elaborated more on my thoughts here. It boils down to two forecasted models:

The 1D Mark IV, to me, doesn't make sense as a 16mp FF camera. Although the pixel density matches its predecessor, leading to great noise performance and diffraction threshold, I don't think FF@10fps is "easy" (and therefore feasible at the 1D price point). To get 10fps, the 1D3 needed two mirror motors, one down and one up. Most every other moving-mirror camera uses a motor and a return spring. Having to motor a FF mirror both ways at 10fps would be tough. Is the 1Ds3 a testament that it can be done, since the viewfinder blackout is (I think) the same? I don't know, but I doubt it. They also have more revenue with which to solve that problem, since the 1Ds is in a higher price category. There would also be sacrifices in x-sync speed with FF, a trade-off that likely doesn't make sense in a "reporting" camera. Speaking of, I see some challenges if Canon had three FF cameras at the existing (5D, 1D, 1Ds) price points.

The 60D, to me, doesn't make sense at APS-H. Losing the EF-S capability means the widest effective focal length "loses", as it shifts from 16mm EFL (using the EF-S 10-22) to 18.2 (using the very expensive 14/2.8L prime). Folks with earlier two-digit (xxD) cameras aren't going to want to obsolete their EF-S inventory with a newer camera in the same family. If it were a 7D model, it creates an interesting three-tier line-up: gripped/rugged bodies (FF and APS-H), non-gripped bodies (FF and APS-H), and EF-S bodies. Whether that makes marketing sense is left to Canon: if we figure that the APS-H body costs about 57% ($4500 vs $8000) of the FF body, the 7D would be about $1550, and that'd be too low for them to make it a pro-caliber unit in my estimation.

When I looked into my crystal ball a year or so ago, I saw my future with two 1D bodies and one 1Ds, before eventually shifting towards two 1Ds bodies and one 1D. I see that working out, whether the 1D line stays APS-H or goes FF. Thinking about it though, a 5D/7D-type combo might work well for a lot of folks too.

**HiFiGuy1** · 07-14-2009, 09:38 PM

Ah, nothing like the smell of vaporware in the morning!

**Benjamin** · 07-14-2009, 10:26 PM

Peety,

Good point on the line up suggestion!

Originally Posted by peety3

I don't think FF@10fps is "easy" (and therefore feasible at the 1D price point). To get 10fps, the 1D3 needed two mirror motors, one down and one up. Most every other moving-mirror camera uses a motor and a return spring. Having to motor a FF mirror both ways at 10fps would be tough.
<div style="clear: both;"]</div>

I will have to disagree with you on this.

My 1V-HS does 10FPS in ease with some minor body vibration - it is a camera from almost one decade ago. If that's not enough, the FD mount [url="http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/film/data/1976-1985/1984_nf1-hsmd.html?lang=us&categ=crn&page=1976-1985]Canon F1 from 1984[/url] with the high speed booster will do 14FPS! Though it was a ridiculous camera to shoot with and it was at a ridiculous price point, Canon has done it back then. That's why I don't quite believe that Canon does not offer FF on the 1D is because of any technical (mechanical) difficulty. The 1V's mechanism is just about good enough in my opinion, and the 1V is sold at $1700 - not even close to any 1 series digital bodies.

Nikon does 11FPS when using the crop mood on the D3, 9FPS full resolution. I think Canon should be able to keep up on this at least.

[quote=peety3]

There would also be sacrifices in x-sync speed with FF, a trade-off that likely doesn't make sense in a "reporting" camera.
<div style="clear: both;"]</div>

[/quote]

The flash sync speed of the 1V and 1Ds III is both at 1/250s, for the 1D III it's 1/300s. Though the 1D III is faster, I wonder if this much difference will make any practical difference at all. The original 1D camera can sync at 1/500s - that compares to the 1/250s is a whole new scale.

Originally Posted by peety3

The 60D, to me, doesn't make sense at APS-H.
<div style="clear: both;"]</div>

Agreed. The xxD line does not make sense to jump up to APS-H at this moment yet. To introduce a new body (say 7D) with APS-H sensor makes sense since there is plenty of room between the xxD and the 5D. $1550? That would be so nice - I'll ditch my 50D right away if that happens.[

]

As I said before, a FF 1D body does not and will not hurt even as a "reporting" camera. I don't see any reason why Canon will have to make a APS-H camera if the FF one will just do the same (i.g. to have the same pixel density, same speed, etc...) at a reasonable cost. If you consider the 1Ds Mark III's 21MP sensor, I agree that a FF 16MP 1D IV will come too close. Say if the future 1Ds IV sports a 30MP sensor, a FF 16MP 1D IV will be just fine to stand behind it as the "speedy & low rez" camera.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ben

**wickerprints** · 07-14-2009, 10:32 PM

I've pointed it out before and got shot down for it, but nobody seems to care that Canon has made a very deliberate distinction with respect to model number and sensor format. If the sensor is APS-C, the model number is X0D (or with earlier cameras, DX0), XX0D, or X000D. If the sensor is APS-H, the model number is 1D. If the sensor is 35mm, the model number is 5D or 1Ds. This has been the nomenclature since Canon started making DSLRs and I would be extremely, extremely surprised if they would suddenly break this pattern. As such, calling a putative 16MP 35mm format camera a "1DmkIV" flies in the face of nearly a decade of branding history. It is far, far more likely that such a camera would be given a new series number.

Please note that I am not saying a camera with that particular feature set would never be released. I am simply pointing out that calling it a 1DmkIV would be inconsistent with the history of how Canon labels its EOS Digital bodies.

Similarly, to say that the evolution in the X0D series cameras is to move them to APS-H makes no sense either. Moving that product line to APS-H would undermine the sales of EF-S lenses and more importantly reduce consumer confidence in the continued support of the EF-S mount. The problem is this: Why design an EF-S lens with superior optics if that brings up the price point to a level that exceeds the budget of the typical consumer that purchases an EF-S body? Someone who buys a Rebel is not likely to want to drop $1000+ on a sharp EF-S lens when he can buy an excellent EF lens and be assured of its continued support. So it's a Catch-22 for Canon, one that would be made even worse should they transition the X0D series to APS-H.

Furthermore, giving the 5DmkII all those things you describe--what would that leave for the 1Ds series? The pixel count and sensor format are the same. You're basically describing a 1DsIII that shoots 1080p video, but you want it for $2700. Well, who wouldn't?

All this speculation and fantasizing is worthless. It is only going to set you up for disappointment and take you away from the important thing, which is to enjoy taking pictures. If you're holding out for the perfect digital body, you're in for a rude awakening each time Canon brings out the next new model and it just doesn't have that perfect combination of features you want.

**peety3** · 07-14-2009, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by wickerprints

I've pointed it out before and got shot down for it, but nobody seems to care that Canon has made a very deliberate distinction with respect to model number and sensor format. If the sensor is APS-C, the model number is X0D (or with earlier cameras, DX0), XX0D, or X000D. If the sensor is APS-H, the model number is 1D. If the sensor is 35mm, the model number is 5D or 1Ds. This has been the nomenclature since Canon started making DSLRs and I would be extremely, extremely surprised if they would suddenly break this pattern. As such, calling a putative 16MP 35mm format camera a "1DmkIV" flies in the face of nearly a decade of branding history. It is far, far more likely that such a camera would be given a new series number.

I see two sides to this. Chuck Westfall from Canon hasn't committed that APS-H is here to stay, so that leaves the door open for them to break the mold. On the other side, you're right and I've been agreeing with that stance on CanonRumors for a while - the folks who think the 1D4 will be full-frame don't seem to respect the legacy of the model numbers, and the folks who say "Canon is stupid if they don't make the 1D4 full-frame" don't seem to understand the confusion that three pro-level full-frame models might create.

Originally Posted by wickerprints

All this speculation and fantasizing is worthless. It is only going to set you up for disappointment and take you away from the important thing, which is to enjoy taking pictures. If you're holding out for the perfect digital body, you're in for a rude awakening each time Canon brings out the next new model and it just doesn't have that perfect combination of features you want.
<div style="clear: both;"]</div>

I agree. I want to replace my Rebel XTi with a more-capable (and more similar interface) body soon, ideally with a 1D4 but I'm also considering a 40D or 50D. But to be honest, I think it's going to have to wait until 2010 for me.

**Benjamin** · 07-14-2009, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by peety3

the folks who think the 1D4 will be full-frame don't seem to respect the legacy of the model numbers,
<div style="clear: both;"]</div>

I wouldn't think it's exactly wise to not do what might be the best just because of a model number. I'm not the ones to insist that the 1D IV must be FF, but if it remains in 1.3x, I'd like to hear a better reason than matching the model number. In my humble opinion, the benefit of a FF sensor should at least be able to make up what we lose from the APS-H.

Nikon now has 3 FF cameras, instead of defining their move as "does not make sense", I'd like to see it as an alternative path to take. Nikon is successful so far, that's why I would like Canon to do more.

Anyway, we'll see.

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