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Thread: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?

  1. #11
    Senior Member neuroanatomist's Avatar
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Welcome to the TDP Forums, Randy, and congrats on your new camera and lens!


    Seems like you're faced with a difficult decision. In general, any time you look at a superzoom like the EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS or even the more expensive EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM (four times the cost!), you're talking about compromise. The biggest downside to such a lens is usually barrel distortion at the wide end - almost every zoom lens has it, but it's more extreme and noticeable on zooms with >5x range. The 18-200mm suffers from >4% barrel distortion; even the L-series 28-300mm superzoom has >4% distortion, although since it's an EF lens, when used with a 1.6x crop body over half of the distortion is eliminated by the sensor crop. Unfortunately, even though the EF-S 15-85mm lens is sharper than the 18-200mm, it suffers almost as badly (3.2%) from barrel distortion at the wide end. For comparison, 'better' lenses like the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS and the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS exhibit less than 2% barrel distortion at the wide end (and I still notice it in some shots with both lenses).


    The other main issue with superzooms is vignetting at the wide end. This is not such a big deal, though, since the T2i can correct this in-camera for JPGs with peripheral illumination correction (and the correction is applied to RAW images if you process them in DPP). Especially if you shoot in JPG, make sure you have PIC enabled and data available for your lenses (done by connecting to your computer and using EOS Utility) - by default, data is only pre-loaded for a few lenses.


    Quote Originally Posted by lynx
    After comparing the angle of view changes between the 85-200mm range, I notice that there is a drop off in change after about 135mm. I guess that is the result of the smaller change of difference in the percentage of the focal length. I hope I am articulating myself well enough.

    What you're noticing (and articulating perfectly well) is not merely the result of 'diminishing returns' because of proportional decrease in relative change (18-28mm is a much bigger relative change than 190-200mm). According to Bryan's review, his testing indicates that 200mm on the EF-S 18-200mm is really around 174mm, when compared to two different 200mm prime lenses (the section is the 3rd paragraph down from the starfish picture). So it's a combination of decreased relative change and probably some non-linear decrease in absolute focal length relative to the markings on the barrel, at the long end.


    Quote Originally Posted by lynx
    I really like the idea of strong back and foreground differentiation, as I've been learning about bokeh and how when done properly, with a good lens, you can get beautiful results. I may at some point get a fast 50mm prime.

    I'd do that sooner rather than later. A great way to experience the benefits (and limitations) of a fast prime is the 'nifty-fifty' - the $100 EF 50mm f/1.8 II. Build quality is not great, but it's a nice little lens that will let you experience a fast prime for low cost. For a larger investment, the EF 85mm f/1.8 is one of the best values in the Canon lineup - excellent IQ, fast, and a great focal length for tight portraits on a crop body, for under $400.


    The other purchase I'd recommend you consider (do you have a birthday coming up?) is an external flash. If you'll be shooting indoors, you'll quickly discover that f/3.5-5.6 is too slow, and you'll need a flash. IMO, the onboard pop-up flash provides horrible lighting (except for fill flash in daylight). Bouncing the flash off the ceiling will substantially improve the look of your indoor shots. Have a look at the Speedlite 430EX II - I recommend that over the 270EX since the 430EX II swivels as well as tilts, and more importantly offers a red/infrared AF assist lamp (versus the annoying multiple flashes of the main strobe for AF assist).





    Quote Originally Posted by lynx
    So it comes down to, If I were to have only one lens for now, do I sacrifice the longer end of the zoom range (85-200mm), in favor of a superior lens, with a more than capable zoom (at the 1.6 crop).

    My recommendation would be to stick with the 18-200mm lens. Brendan's suggestion of the 15-85mm + 70-200mm f/4L is a good one, although a 200mm lens without IS can be difficult to handhold. But for a one-lens solution for, "vacations, landscapes, my kid's ballgames, etc.," I think you'll want the flexibility of wide angle to telephoto coverage. Despite the fact that I have an excellent collection of fast zooms and even faster primes covering 10-400mm in total, I still sometimes find myself considering the EF-S 18-200mm as a one-lens solution (in fact, I may take my 7D into a camera shop this weekend and try one out!).


    Shoot with the 18-200mm for a while, and that will help you decide where you want to spend your money in the future (a better wide angle like the 17-55mm f/2.8, a better telephoto like the 70-200mm f/4L IS, or something even wider like the EF-S 10-22mm).


    --John

  2. #12
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    I agree! Thanks!

  3. #13
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Thanks, John! I really appreciate the input!


    After spending today getting to know my new camera and lens, I found that I used the full focal length range of the 18-200. I'd love to have more than one lens, but I feel that at this time it would be best for me to stick with the 18-200 and learn how to use it, which unfortunately is the opposite approach to what you suggested. Right now, my eye is not very attuned to things like chromatic aberration, barrel distortion, pincushion, vignetting, etc. The pictures I took look very nice, and to my untrained eye, sharp. I'm sure as I get more experience these unpleasant details will become more apparent to me.


    The 18-200 may not be the brightest, sharpest, or fastest, but it really is a huge step up for me from my little PowerShot point and shoot (which I still love). So in time, with use and experience, I'll likely need to expand my range of lenses and get that 15-85 and 70-200, and the 18-200 will become the travel lens. Until then, I really need to work on composition and learning to effectively use the manual controls.


    Thank you very much for your suggestions!

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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Hi Jan,


    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I took your advice and put the 18-200 on the camera and started shooting. What I learned was that I do appreciate having the broad focal length range that the lens affords.


    As mentioned in another reply to John, I think I'm going to stick with this lens for now, and as I develop some experience and am better able to discern lens limitations I'm sure I'll want to upgrade to better quality lenses. At that point, the 18-200 will simply become my travel lens. For now, I need to learn how to compose better shots, and as I've used a point and shoot for so long, to master the manual controls.


    Thanks again.


    Regards,


    Randy

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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Hi John,


    I think your suggestions are spot on for my current needs. I really appreciate everyone's input, it's all good, but I think what it comes down to is that I am not technically ready to make the investment in multiple lens, even if they are faster and produce sharper images.


    I don't want to repeat myself too much, so please see my reply to the post from the other John: I need to learn, and right now, the 18-200 lens will afford me the ability to do so with a wide focal range to choose from. I'm sure at some point I'll want to upgrade to the other lens solutions that you and the others have suggested.


    Two other things: I agree with you and the others about getting the "nifty fifty" or similar lens. I understand the value of that. Also, I have in fact been considering the 430EX II. I will likely be getting these two items sooner than later!


    Again, thanks for the great insight and suggestions. I really appreciate it.


    Regards,


    Randy

  6. #16
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Hey Randy,


    Congrats on your decision. I know it's hard to make a choice when there are so many excellent products out there. You have a great camera. And a desireable lens with that awesome focal range. Enjoy them.


    John






  7. #17
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Quote Originally Posted by lynx
    I took your advice and put the 18-200 on the camera and started shooting. What I learned was that I do appreciate having the broad focal length range that the lens affords.

    That's the most important factor.


    Quote Originally Posted by lynx
    I think I'm going to stick with this lens for now, and as I develop some experience and am better able to discern lens limitations I'm sure I'll want to upgrade to better quality lenses

    Sounds like a good choice to me. As long as your happy with it, it's good right? After a while you'll figure out what matters most to you and you get a better idea of what you might want to upgrade later on.


    Quote Originally Posted by lynx
    For now, I need to learn how to compose better shots, and as I've used a point and shoot for so long, to master the manual controls.

    Just practice and practice a lot! Memory is cheap and photos are erasable, use that in your advantage. When you start experimenting(I personally shot beer-bottles at different distances on the kitchen table to learn the meaning of aperture) it's no big deal if you shoot 200 photos and you'll delete them all. Just make sure you'll learn from it.


    Have fun and good luck with photographing and in your marriage of course...Randy! [Y]


    Jan

  8. #18
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    I just pulled the trigger on the 15-85mm, mainly because Canon is promoting a $100 discount (until 7/10/2010). I already have a zoom to cover the longer end out to 200mm, so this makes sense for me (and I generally shoot outdoors). The 17-55mm with a fixed f/2.8 would be nicer, but that lens would be roughly 70% more expensive.


    Looks like the 18-200mm fills your needs quite wellfor a one-lens outfit. It pretty much covers the range that my two zooms will cover. Our next option will likely be a fast intermediate prime, no?


    As Sheiky stated, memory is cheap and erasable... something I must also keep in mind since I come from the old days of film SLRs. Good film was not cheap, reusable, nor did it offer instant results (required processing).


    Enjoy!



  9. #19
    Senior Member neuroanatomist's Avatar
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Quote Originally Posted by neuroanatomist
    I may take my 7D into a camera shop this weekend and try one out!

    So, I did head into a camera shot this weekend and give the EF-S 18-200mm a try. My first impression was that it was a nice size, light, and better constructed than I thought it would be. The zoom ring had little play and good resistance, but not too much. Even though the manual focus ring is thin, it was a bit unnerving to feel it move under my fingers during autofocus. AF was reasonably fast (definitely not typical USM, but similar to the 85L). The focal length range was nice (but could be nicer - see below). I took a grab-shot of my daughter running toward me from across the shop, with the lens at the long end of the zoom range - the background was crisp thanks to IS, but with f/5.6 in the poorly-lit shop, shutter speed was too slow to stop her motion. For indoor use with moving subjects, flash is a must.


    I was also interested in the apparent issue of focal length at the long end of this lens. The phenomenon Randy mentioned (when zooming from wide to tele, there is less change as you zoom at the long end) was very apparent with this lens. You can see the same thing with any zoom lens, but it seemed more noticeable with the 18-200mm, perhaps due to the 11x range? I took a pair of shots at 200mm - one with the EF-S 18-200mm, then changing lenses without changing my position, a second shot with myEF 70-200mm f/2.8<span style="color: red;"]LIS II.


    [url="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4767799586_3662021c1c_b.jpg][/url]


    As you can see from the superimposed version on the right, at 200mm, the 70-200mm L lens frames quite a bit tighter than the 18-200mm lens. How much tighter? By my calculations, about a 1.3x crop. That makes the effective focal length of the 18-200mm @ 200mm only about 154mm compared to the L-zoom @ 200mm. My estimation comes in a bit worse than Bryan's (he estimated it at 174mm). On the wide end, compared to an EF-S 17-55mm, the 18-200mm delivers ~18mm. From Bryan's test shots with the starfish, it seems most of the 'compression' is at the long end - there's only a small difference in framing between 135mm and 170mm, and almost none between 170mm and 200mm.


    This gets me to thinking - if the EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 is really an 18-154mm lens, is it worth $150-200 more than the EF-S 18-135mmf/3.5-5.6? That additional cost only buys you 20mm and a few mm delay in the transitions to slower apertures.


    In any case, even if you're not getting the full 11x range out of the 18-200mm lens, even a 9x zoom is a huge range, making it a very convenient lens for travel. Personally, I think deal with the additional bulk and weight and some lens changes, and I'll stick with my EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS andEF 70-200mm f/2.8<span style="color: red;"]LIS II lenses as a 'travel kit', or my EF 24-105mm f/4<span style="color: red;"]L IS as my 'one-lens' solution.

  10. #20
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    Re: Help, please!: Canon 15-85mm IS USM or Canon 18-200mm?



    Quote Originally Posted by neuroanatomist
    This gets me to thinking - if the EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 is really an 18-154mm lens, is it worth $150-200 more than the EF-S 18-135mmf/3.5-5.6? That additional cost only buys you 20mm and a few mm delay in the transitions to slower apertures.

    Considering the 135mm of the 18-135 is really 135mm [A]


    Thanks for the head to head comparison. That's a BIG difference! It almost looks like a comparison shot between a full-frame photo and a crop sized photo [A]


    I remember shooting with a cheap Tamron 70-300 at maximum zoom and the exif would say 284mm or something. Does your exif with the 18-200 still say 200mm?


    By the way isn't this just a marketing trick/scam and officially illegal?

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