$2500 for canon slr and lens(es)

[Fast Glass]

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Unless you need speed I would opt for a T2i

the only thing I don't like the rebel is the shutter lag, too long,to me, that's a deal breaker. i don't mind have one as a back up body though.
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Unless you shoot action that differance is negligeble. I havenever missed a shot becuase of it, unless the subject is moving very fast. Actually the only time I ever missed a shot do to shutter lag was when I got my Minolta 600mm f/6.3shooting birdsand onlytwo shots were missed the whole time I'veowned it!


John.

[JJphoto]

John, I think it

[Fast Glass]

it's very easy to miss a moment especially shooting candid shots of kids.

I've shot that too and never missed a shot becuase of shutter lag. The only time you will miss a shot becuase of shutter lag is if the subject is moving very fast, such as in sports or fast moving wildlife and birds.


John.

[Richard Lane]

- the 50D/60D both have autofocus microadjustment (which the rebels/T2i don't) and I consider this one of the most important features on my 5D2.

As Ben has stated the AF Micro-adjustment is nice, however, I don't believe that the 60D has this feature as this time. There are some hopes though, that it may be added via a firmware update in the future.


All excellent suggestions so far, here are my thoughts!


You sound very passionate about it and you did mention, possible business aspirations, so if you do get the 7D, you will probably never need anything more out of the body. If you get the 60D(un-weathersealed body?), you may eventually be longing for more, like faster shutter speeds or AF micro-adjustment. Regarding AF-microadjustment, it allows the consumer to fine tune/calibrate each Lens with their specific Body, as all lenses and bodies seem to have some "acceptable variations" in accuracy and repeatability. The 7D also has a 100% viewfinder vs. 96% VF on the 60D. The 7D also has 19pt. f/2.8 Auto focus cross type system vs. 9pt. f/2.8 AF cross type on the 60D.


I would recommend the 7D $1500 with the EF-24-105 f/4L IS (Image Stabilization) $1059, this is a very nice focal range to start off with, plus the 7D offers higher shutter speed capability coupled to a more elaborate AF system and weather/dust sealing for the body and lens, and if you do decide to upgrade to FF some day, then the EF-Lenses are FF friendly. The 7D and 60D both have a pop-up flash that you could use temporarily until you could acquire a 430EX or 580EX flash. If you do use the pop-up flash then I would buy a flash diffuser for it, they are dirt cheap. The 17-55 f/2.8 IS is also a good choice, but is too short for outdoor candid portraits and I would miss the longer focal length and weather-sealing of the 24-105 and I would sacrifice the 17-23mm focal range and the f/2.8 stop, because the 2.8 is still not wide enough for low light indoor ambient lighting.


Then, later..., depending on your needs of course, the next lens to consider would be a low-light light indoor lens like the 50/1.4 ($340) or 85/1.8 ($370 a little long for group shots inside on a crop body, great for solo shots though).


After that I would get the best 70-200mm f/2.8 lens that you can afford (plus a 1.4X for X-Mas) even though there is some overlap with the 24-105 range this lens doubles that focal length, light capture and speed, and with the 2X extender capability it could double the focal length a second time; or a 100-400mm, and then lastly the10-22mm EF-S (non-weathersealed, no other option available, 1.6x Crop Mount only) that takes excellent wide angle pictures.


Rich

[Daniel Browning]

I would be shooting candid portraits mostly outdoors (some indoors such as a friend's house, not a studio setting).I only have $2500 to spend on a camera and lens(es).

For $2,500, the ultimate outdoor candid portrait combination would be this:


Canon 7D, $1500


Canon 135mm f/2, $1000


Here's why that lens:

• Bokeh:The 135 is really a specially lens -- the bokeh wide open is just gorgeous.
• Very little background: The long focal length will allow you to cut out a lot of background
• Very blurred background: Whatever is left of the background will be blurred very diffusely.
• Defocus control: with a wide f/2 aperture, you can control how much of the image will be in focus.
• Perspective: with 135mm, you can be distance enough for a nice perspective in an extreme closeup (ECU) -- shorter lenses can't do that. The downside is that full-body portraits will have a flattened perspective.

That said, perhaps spending the whole budget on the "ultimate" is not the best option. In fact, I would suggest something a little more pedestrian:


Canon 60D, $1100


Canon 85mm f/1.8,$370


That's only $1470, but it will still make excellent outdoor portraits and will be more useful indoors (where the 135 is not). That leaves you $1,000 for other lenses and accessories. You could get the Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 for $420 orCanon EF-S 55-250 for $230, or a flash, etc.


Hope that helps.

[neuroanatomist]

Hi Rebecca, and welcome to the TDP forums!


Sorry for the long forthcoming post, but I know from fairly recent experience that this is a difficult decision so it's one you want to get right the first time!

I read about suggestions on which camera and lens to purchase, the more confused I get. I read a lot about getting a less expensive camera and better lenses, but there are never any suggestions of actual cameras and lenses. I would be shooting candid portraits mostly outdoors (some indoors such as a friend's house, not a studio setting). I only have $2500 to spend on a camera and lens(es).

I'll start with my recommendation, then launch into the details. I'd recommend:

• EOS 50D - $930
• EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM - $1100
• EF 85mm f/1.8 USM - $400
• Speedlite 430EX II - $280

First off, that exceeds your budget by $210. There are a couple of solutions to that issue. First, you may notice the total of the two lens prices I give is $60 higher than current retail pricing - that's because I include the dedicated lens hoods in the cost. If you'll be shooting outdoors, you'll want the hoods - they prevent flare and increase the contrast and saturation of your images. But, those would also make nice birthday/Christmas presents. Second, if you can wait a few weeks for the purchase, Canon usually launches lens/flash rebates in mid-late October, and the 17-55mm and 430EX II are often on the list (typically $70 and $30, respectively). As a side note, apparently rebates are about to be announced on the 7D and some Rebel cameras, although the Rebel rebates require kit lenses to be purchased, which means the cheap kit lenses are essentially free but doesn't really save you $ on the body, and you don't want the kit lenses (see below).


People around here generally recommend better lenses before a better body, and that's for good reason. The lens has a much greater impact on image quality than the body. Consider - the three 'current' crop-sensor bodies - the T2i, the 60D, and the 7D - all use the exact same sensor. So, on a basic level, image quality is the same from all three, despite a several hundred dollar price difference. That difference buys you extra build quality, better autofocus systems, faster frame rates, etc. All important and useful, but the bottom line is that you'll get a better result with a Rebel body and a good lens than with a 7D and a cheap consumer zoom lens.


I should say that you can take portraits with a Rebel and a kit lens. Very nice portraits, actually, in the right setting. But, that setting is a studio. From a technical standpoint (as opposed to artistic elements, composition, etc.), the most important factor that makes a good portrait is lighting. The second most important factor is the background. In a studio, you have complete control over lighting and background. That's why if you walk into a 'typical' consumer portrait studio (Sears, Target, etc.), you'll often see them using a Rebel or the Nikon equivalent, and the kit lens. But in addition, they've got radio-triggered studio strobes in large softboxes, and pull-down backdrops. That compensates for the narrow apertures of a kit lens - and at f/8, those lenses actually perform very well. If you want to shoot outside of a studio, you need to make your own light, and you need to be able to control the background blur, best done through the use of a wide aperture lens.


Ok, now let's walk through the choices I recommend:


50D body. It's not the newest xxD body, that's true - but although the 60D has a higher resolution sensor (18 vs. 15 megapixles), it gives up one important feature - autofocus (AF) microadjustment. That was one reason I upgraded from a T1i to a 7D. AF Microadjustment is a capability to calibrate the camera's AF system for specific lenses. This corrects for front- or back-focusing that can occur in some lenses, due to manufacturing tolerances. See [url="http://www.lensrentals.com/news/2008.12.22/this-lens-is-soft-and-other-myths]THIS ARTICLE[/url] for more details on the issue. If you were to use consumer zoom lenses (like the kit lenses offered with most bodies), you may never notice a problem because the narrow apertures on those lenses mean deep depths of field, which masks AF problems. But if you'll be taking portraits, you'll be using lenses with wider apertures, and that means shallow depth of field (generally desirable for portraits) which means calibrating your lenses to correct for those issues. The 50D is also a step up from a Rebel in a lot of small ways - faster burst rate means more chance of capturing a fleeting expression, better autofocus system, and a bit more rugged. The joystick also makes it easier to select AF points for more flexible composition. Having said all of that, the Rebel T2i would be a good second option here to save a little money.


[b]EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM.[/b] IMO, this is the absolute best general purpose zoom lens for a crop body, especially for portrait use. Although it covers basically the same focal length range as the kit lens included with the Rebels (18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS), this lens is much, much better. The optical quality is equivalent to an L-series lens (Canon's professional line). The relatively wide f/2.8 aperture will allow you to highlight a subject by blurring out the background. The focal range is good on the wide end (for indoor shots where you can't back up and want to include more than one person in the shot), and on the long end it's great for full-body shots. As others have pointed out, it's probably not a good idea to have this as your only lens, but if you're only going to have one, this should be it. Although I have a lot of lenses, including some with overlapping focal length like the EF 24-105mm f/4L IS, when I go out to take portraits with my 7D, this is one of the two lenses I take. Here's an example shot with the 17-55mm and a Rebel T1i, which was on one of my first outings with the my first dSLR. (You can click the image for a larger version.)



[url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr_brain/4890930123/in/set-72157624462568231/lightbox/][/url]
Rebel T1i, EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM, 1/50 s, f/2.8, ISO 100


[b]EF 85mm f/1.8.[/b] This lens is one of the best values in the Canon lens lineup. It's fantastically sharp, and the optical and build quality are excellent. The fast f/1.8 aperture is something you can only get from a prime lens (the fastest zoom lenses are f/2.8). That means a large quantity of out-of-focus blur with a wide aperture, and the quality of the that blur (quality is called bokeh, which is different than quantity of blur) is good with this lens. It's the right focal length for tight portraits indoors or out, or wider shots outside if you have room to back up. It pairs nicely with the 17-55mm for a great 2-lens portrait combination. Another advantage to the wide aperture is that you can use it with just ambient light indoors, and get good results. Here's another early example of mine (I'm showing shots with the Rebel and the lenses I'm recommending, rather than the 7D, because the T1i has the same sensor that's in the 50D body; there are more recent examples on my Flickr page).



[url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr_brain/5047278975/in/set-72157624462568231/lightbox/][/url]
Rebel T1i, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, 1/2000 s, f/1.8, ISO 100


I really liked the 85mm f/1.8 lens, and took many portraits that I was quite pleased with. I no longer have that lens - I liked the focal length so much that I swapped it for the EF 85mm f/1.2<span style="color: #ff0000;"]L II USM (a very expensive lens!). But for me, when I go out to shoot portraits (mostly of my daughter), the two lenses I take are the 17-55mm and the 85L.


One other minor B-day/Xmas item to add if you get the fast prime would be a 3-stop neutral density filter (e.g. B+W #103, in a 58mm size for the 85mm f/1.8). Not too expensive, and sometimes needed on bright days. Note in the settings above that I needed a shutter speed of 1/2000 s with f/1.8, and that wasn't a very bright day. Much brighter, and you won't be able to use a wide aperture without exceeding the shutter speed of the camera or overexposing the image, and that's where the ND filter helps by cutting the amount of light getting into the lens.


I think 85mm is about the longest lens you'd want for portraits with a plan to shoot both indoors and outdoors. The 135mm f/2L is a great lens for portraits outdoors on a 1.6x crop body like the ones we're discussing, but it's really too long to use indoors unless you have really big rooms. Keep in mind that while the 135L is "the" lens for tight portraits, that's meant with a film/full frame body - an 85mm lens on a crop body like a Rebel, 50/60D, or 7D gives the same angle of view as 135mm on full frame.


Speedlite 430EX II. All of the cameras we're discussing have a built-in, pop-up flash. Using that for portraits is about the worst thing you can do. You get red-eye, but more importantly (since red-eye can be removed in post processing), you get harsh, unflattering light. It accentuates wrinkles and facial flaws, and generally gives that 'deer in the headlights' look you really don't want in a portrait. If you were going to shoot exclusively outdoors, the pop-up flash would be ok as a fill flash. But indoors, you want the ability to deliver indirect light. The harshness/softness of lighting is inversely proportional to the size of the light source. A pop-up flash is tiny, meaning it's harsh. That's why studios, pros, and people who know a lot about lighting (e.g. our ownKeith BandSean Setters), use large softboxes for lighting - big light sources means nice, soft lighting. Sure, the 430EX II's flash head isn't much bigger than the pop-up - but that's ok. You use the external flash as bounced light - angle the head up to bounce the light off the ceiling, which gives you a much, much larger light source. The 270EX is another option, but not one I'd recommend. It's not very powerful (less suitable for bouncing), and also the 430EX II offers an AF assist lamp - in dark settings, the AF system needs help, and without a flash or with a 270EX, it gets that help by firing a quick burst of strobe flashes, which is annoying and often distracting to the subject (they think you just took the picture). The 430EX II uses a red/infrared lamp to assist the AF system.


So, once again, sorry for the long post but I hope it helps with your decisions!


Good luck and let us know what you decide to do...


--John

[btaylor]

The 60D does NOT have AF microadjustment while the 50D does, that's partly why I didn't recomend it.

Thanks for the correction John (I hate to give false advice). The lack of micro adjustment was actually one of the things that blew me away with the 60D so I don't know why I missed that.


Rebecca you've got a lot of varied suggestions here, all will give you a good result. The best bet now is probably to head to your local camera store with these suggestions in mind and have a feel of the gear to see what suits you best.


Good luck. Ben.

[rebeccaw]

I posted this question before the weekend, left for a couple of days and when I got back there were 20 replies! The fact that you guys took the time on the weekend to answer my beginner dslr questions is greatly appreciated! You really are great bunch of guys!!!


As for my decision: I actually made a chart (I know, only a woman...) with all of your suggestions, checked out some more websites and came to the following conclusion:


LENSES: There were an equal number of recommendations for the 24-70mm and the 17-55mm. The fact that the 17-55mm is not compatible with a FF camera, which I might want to upgrade to at one point, makes my inner cheap-girl cry out in pain. What good is it to invest in a good lens if I might not be able to use it on my next camera, right? So I think the best choice would be the EF 24-70mmf/2.8 L USM. I might also invest in a 50mm with a lower f stop to get those extra sharp pics with a creamy bokeh. I understand that for portraits a 50mm is preferred over a 85mm on a crop body. Then later on, once I got rich from all those well paying shoots (LOL), I might get a 70-200mm as well.


BODY: 50D, 60D or 7D? Buying a 7D seems to go against the golden rule of photogs (cameras come and go, invest in the best lens you can afford instead). So thanks to those of you who recommended it, but I think itis not the best choice forme at this time.


The 60D doesn't have AF microadjustment, which seems to be a most valued asset by photographers. Is it really that important? It does have HD video and a swivel screen, neither of which features would be of too much interest to me. If the AF microadjustment is truly that crucial, than I think my best choice, if I were to buy right now, would be the 50D, which is about the same price as the 60D right now.


However, what if I were to wait until December? By then the price of the 60D might settle down a little, but again my interest in this camera depends on the AFm.a. issue. Also with the 60D being the new guy on the block the price of the 50D may be lower as a result. Plus, I've heard rumors of an upcoming discount on the 7D. And finally with the Christmas shopping season approaching there may be some discounts to be had. Is Christmas typically a good time to buy a camera?

[HDNitehawk]

Looking at the B&amp;H prices there is $170 between the 50d and the 60d. They both have the rebate if you buy the Pixma 9000 printer at this time. The printer sells for $499 and you get a $400 rebate. So you end up with the printer for an additional $99 bucks. They were offering this rebate when I bought my backup 5D and I took advantage of it. I would suggest doing the same if you bought the 50d or 60d. The only problem is you have to buy at full price and then wait on the rebate.


I have used the mirco adjustment on my 50d. That would be dissapointing if the 60d does not have it.


As far as waiting, the rebates canon is offering now are prety typical. You might see a rebate offer on the lens in a few months, but who knows. I don

[Joel Eade]

I would consider the following....


1. 24-70mm f/2.8L USM


2. 70-200mm f/4L USM


3. A used or refurbished 40D body


You would have great lenses for a variety of situations and buy getting a body that is one generation back you save a bundle on depreciation without that much loss in imaging technology. I believe 40D images look just as good as 50D images.