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Thread: Has the M-Series Arrived?

  1. #21
    Super Moderator Kayaker72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDNitehawk View Post
    Not far behind? Small advantages in a graph like this can be huge for pixel peepers on photo sites.
    True and agreed. But, of course, the best camera is the one you have with you. One of the issues I have identified for myself is that there have been a couple of trips where I just took my iPhone. One trip to SoCal in particular I ended up watching a great sunset over the pier at Hermosa Beach. I tried to capture it with my iPhone. The final quality? Lets just say I haven't posted any of the images.

    In terms of IQ and small advantages, I think it is fairly straightforward:

    FF sensors > crop sensors > 1" sensors >>> camera phone sensors

    And MF is likely better than FF. But, in the end, it is about have the best that you will have with you, or, where you will be satisfied.


    Quote Originally Posted by HDNitehawk View Post
    For IQ, I never downloaded a single picture. But zoomed in to max I had very good detail on eyelash and hair. I am optimistic that the IQ will be great as expected.
    Thanks for the impressions. I look forward to hearing more.

  2. #22
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    Battery drain will be an issue. For a vacation camera i would need multiple batteries.

    I have not done any testing on this, however it seems like the battery takes longer to charge.

    Comparing the t4i, shooting jpg only. I can see the resolution advantage. The M5 seems to handle skin tones and reds better.

  3. #23
    Super Moderator Kayaker72's Avatar
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    So I am staying in the M ecosystem, but have gone a slightly different route. I bought the M3 and EVF when the combo had a $500 instant rebate. As the reviews of the M5 continue to come it, I would say it is a better camera. In particular, faster more accurate AF, the AF point selection on LCD screen while looking through EVF, and a few ergonomic features. However, looking at sensor performance, other than DR at ISO <400, the M5 and M3 were very similar and both better than my original EOS M "classic." The negatives about the M5 were really about size, weight, and cost. Basically, I wanted a small, light body for travel and non-photo oriented hiking, or a second body to have on me if I suddenly want a wide angle shot when I have a telephoto on my 5DIII. That was the original intent of the M, and it worked pretty well, but it was 4% of my 2016 shots for a reason. So, the M3 gives me a tilt screen, faster AF, ability to add an EVF when wanted, Wi-Fi, etc, while still being smallish, lightish, and fitting in my Dashpoint 30 (depending on lens). All for an expected investment of ~$350, ~$170 if you subtract the EVF, after I sell my M1.

    As a new M body is rumored to be released in February, I suspect it will be a replacement for the M3 introducing DPAF and some of the features of the M5 into that smaller form factor without a built in EVF. I might eventually want this body, but it is tough to buy a camera that doesn't exist and I suspect that its price point will be $750-$850, just for the body, if it is ever released. In addition to having DPAF in a smaller form factor, the second feature that could really interest me is the ability to charge through the USB port, something on the G"x"X series cameras. It would be great to not travel with a battery charger.
    Last edited by Kayaker72; 01-08-2017 at 11:28 PM.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator Kayaker72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayaker72 View Post
    FF sensors > crop sensors > 1" sensors >>> camera phone sensors
    Just to put some numbers to the different sensor areas (mm2). Camera size in phones varies, but I found a couple of references for iPhone having 1/3.2" sensors.

    iPhone: 1/3.2" sensor = 16 mm2 (5.8)
    Common P&S: "2/3" sensor = 28 mm2 (4.9)
    Canon G7X: 1" sensor = 116 mm2 (2.9)
    Canon APS-C = 329 mm2 (1.4)
    FF = 864 mm2

    That is some pretty big differences in light gathering area.

    EDIT: I just added P&S (2/3 sensor) and in () I put the number of times the surface area would need to be doubled to get to FF. So an iPhone surface area would need to be doubled 5.8 times to have the area of a FF camera.

    Thus, if surface area is the only factor, and I have to think it is a pretty big factor, those are the "stops" better a FF sensor should be over each respective sensor size. Just playing with a few of Sony's recent releases on DXO mark (RX100 IV, A6500, A7R II), that holds close to true for tonal range, but is an overstatement for DR and SNR. But, the A7R II is also a 42 MP camera compared to 24 and 20 MP so other types of noise or what can be recorded in a 14 bit system might become limiting. Plus...well, DXO
    Last edited by Kayaker72; 01-09-2017 at 12:26 PM.

  5. #25
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    I had a chance to use the m5 for my stepdaughters wedding last weekend.
    IQ of the jpg's out of the camera is adequate.
    However the battery was almost dead at the end of the wedding. I had only shot 25 photos and about 15 minutes worth of video. Battery life is going to be an annoying issue.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator Kayaker72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDNitehawk View Post
    I had a chance to use the m5 for my stepdaughters wedding last weekend.
    IQ of the jpg's out of the camera is adequate.
    However the battery was almost dead at the end of the wedding. I had only shot 25 photos and about 15 minutes worth of video. Battery life is going to be an annoying issue.
    Something almost seems wrong. I've heard GPS can really drain batteries, but I do not believe the M5 has GPS. I wonder about wifi or Bluetooth?

    For a quick reference, the M3 has the same battery as the M5. I am still on my first charge: 125 shots, about 5 min of video, and a ton of time with the screen on as I went through the menus, played with the wifi connection, and the EVF. I just lost a bar last night, which in Canon M3 lingo is "Slightly depleted but still sufficient."

    Edit: Just did a search. Only significant reference I found to battery drain on the M5 was on dpreview forums. The solution that was offered was that it is continuous AF that drains the battery fast. But glancing at a couple of reviews, they didn't note a problem and mentioned getting a day or a couple of days of moderate shooting from the M5 on a single battery.

    Also, there is an "eco" mode that is supposed to boost battery life.

    All that said, something still seems off. I'd be tempted to run some tests, try a different battery, or contact Canon.
    Last edited by Kayaker72; 01-09-2017 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #27
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    Obviously I will need a backup battery, so if it is the battery that will be an easy one to check.
    I have seen other threads where battery drain is a complaint.
    It stands to reason that the m5 would drain the battery faster than the m3, with the new viewfinder.

  8. #28
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    Some thoughts on the M series and mirrorless. Not trying to jack the thread, and it will come round tuit again - the M series that is.

    HD - interesting real world handling issues that you have surfaced.

    I have said a couple of times the basic functionality of the M5 on FF would be a great 6DII (mirrorless too). Same MP count, still oriented to lower light efforts. 4k would make it a gang buster for enthusiast vids.

    Other than some minor expense - I guess it doesn't come up that often - why wouldn't the man'f make a 'lens change shutter' such that the sensor would not be open to the elements when changing a lens.

    I am in the middle of a full on system re-eval. I get 14 bit color depth and DR - though I have never really printed to that depth - 8 bit only and my two 4k SUHD TVs only have 10 bit and that is pretty cool. I can't really understand what the leap to 14 would yield - better but how much? I have no experience for context.

    As 4k and 10 bit - I watched a 4k 10bit video over the holidays - WOW! simply WOW! having said this, a few minutes into it, I was focused on the plot not the IQ. But really noticed the IQ first several minutes of the vid.

    So when looking at the options for a full on system replace for the mirrorless/ or even smallish size as a 1st filter - $$ is in 2nd but as long as it is below 5k total change out costs (rules out Leica). The Pany, Oly, Sony, options are just so darn feature rich, and 99.999999% of image viewing will be on a screen converting 14 bit to 10 bit will last me quite awhile - even Dell's 8k monitor is 10bit. The unavoidable collision is the diffraction f stop that starts to degrade image quality of MF to FF due to pixel size.

    So in conclusion,
    I am holding on for a couple more months hoping that Canon makes an announcement that moves the "M" series into the competitive feature set. They may be aimed a bit higher on the pro/enthusiast pixel peeping, diffraction unlimited, continuum than where I think I am settling.
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  9. #29
    Super Moderator Kayaker72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busted Knuckles View Post
    HD - interesting real world handling issues that you have surfaced.
    Agreed. I am probably more hoping that Rick got a bum battery. 15 min of video and 25 shots was be a severe limitation to the M5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Busted Knuckles View Post
    I have said a couple of times the basic functionality of the M5 on FF would be a great 6DII (mirrorless too). Same MP count, still oriented to lower light efforts. 4k would make it a gang buster for enthusiast vids.

    I am in the middle of a full on system re-eval.
    Seems like the 6D battery would be a big help

    I'd be curious where you end up on the re-eval. While not a total system re-eval, I like my 5DIII too much, the ergonomics if nothing else. But I have been watching/reading reviews of other mirrorless systems before I settled in on the M3.

    I have to say, the AF on the Sony (RX 100 V/A6500) is very impressive. But I disliked the user interface (both LCD and menus). Still thinking about the Sony RX100 V, as the AF was good.

    I was impressed by the Fuji and Oly's as well. As you said, feature rich. But too expensive as a "niche" body that I was looking for.

    To really digress , I've also looked at Nikon a bit. I've always, and still do, given Canon the overall edge in lenses, but Nikon's recent releases of the 105 f/1.4, 70-200 f/2.8, and 24-70 f/2.8 I think have helped close that gap a bit. Granted, Canon closed the gap with new sensor tech in the latest bodies. And then there is the whole reliability/customer service/maintenance edge

  10. #30
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    LOL - which man'f has the reliability/customer service edge again? I don't have enough insight to opine thoughtfully on this topic.

    The comment about "niche" sounds like an interesting debate. If I am in the niche - it is a pretty big niche....
    * Don't charge anybody money for my photo output/activity.
    * Virtually 100% image viewing on a screen vs. print - (that is the biggy as it is limited to 10 bit depth best case)
    * Modest cropping for composition
    * Poor photoshop skills, perhaps a bit of shadow/highlight push/pull
    * When in doubt bracket the exposure
    * Enough disposable income that a net 2-3k total cost for a system change is comprehensible (stings, but isn't fatal to the marriage)
    * Would take my gear more often if it was smaller. (I do not buy the cramps my fingers comments as this means you are holding your camera vs. lens when exposing the shot and the right hand should have a very light touch - good thing I am equally dysfunctional with both hands)
    * shoot 99.9% of the time in adequate light (I know every shot has shadows and highlights - back in the day, I used 11 zone construct for my B&W)

    No doubt I like the feel, sound and feedback of the 5DIII on silent shutter mode (5Ds series even better), something very satisfying and visceral.
    Really like my glass config. I could see 50% of it staying in my bag w/ an adapter. But having an option to have a really small "walking around" package that has top of the line feature set..... hmmmm..... Look at the relative size of a MF 24-70 equiv to that of a APS/FF. One fits into a purse/backpack without much fuss, the other.....

    Regardless, looking forward to your wife's conference. If we can get onto the Orlando Wetlands Park that would be nifty (Circle B equiv but WAY bigger).

    Happy clicks.

    Mike

    Post script. Having read my post - sort of begs the question what are you waiting for? Get a MF body, a 12-35 f2.8, an adapter and sell off the 50% of the glass that is redundant, etc. Hmmmmm.... thinking, thinking, thinking.

    Great days to all

    Mike
    Last edited by Busted Knuckles; 01-10-2017 at 12:15 PM.
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