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Thread: Canon R3

  1. #141
    Senior Member neuroanatomist's Avatar
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    DPP gives very slightly narrower than 14mm (a few pixels), Adobe gives very slightly wider than 14mm. The differences are really only noticeable with DxO. I used the EF 11-24/4L for comparison. FYI, I am referring to the distortion-corrected FoV, the uncorrected image has an FoV of a bit wider than 13mm.

    Full details here: https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/th...testing.41022/
    Last edited by neuroanatomist; 12-30-2021 at 04:07 PM.

  2. #142
    Senior Member Fast Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroanatomist View Post
    Ergonomics are very personal. Some like small and light, others more surface area to grip. The camera will be in my hands for hours, and comfort is not a nit-pick. Would you buy an uncomfortable office chair you planned to sit in for hours a day? Personally, I wouldnít.

    Comparing cameras can be a fun exercise, and thereís nothing wrong with that. At the high end, Iím not sure there is practical value in such an exercise for most users. Changing systems is not a simple matter for most people sufficiently far along to be using or considering top-level bodies. Itís more the province of Ďspecibatersí like the people who peruse the auto magazine comparisons of Ferrari vs. Lamborghini models but are Camry drivers. Iím sure there are people at the top level who do switch, but I doubt itís a significant number.
    So while I agree statement 100%, we are not talking about an uncomfortable camera with the A1. Not my preference either. But we are also not talking about the difference of a 5D IV vs a 1Dx III class of camera where it's only giving up a small resolution difference in comparison. We are talking about slightly over double the resolution in a camera that squashes the competition in pretty much every conceivable way. And while the glass department is probably not significantly better hard to argue it is at a disadvantage either.

    Now, I'm not telling anyone what to buy. My rational is the R3 better deliver something the A1 cannot otherwise it pretty much limits it's market to the Canon fanboys really. If you gonna switch, Sony has that market cornered. SOOOO many people are switching because both Canon and Nikon are switching ecosystems. So LOTS and LOTS of people are switching to Sony because they are just so competitive and if you are not brand loyal it makes a lot of sense for a lot of people.

    I am a bit of a Canon fan boy I admit, I just can't switch very easily and I am a creature of habit. I'm just so used to Canon. But if they make a 30mp R1 (I doubt it), I MIGHT just switch to the Fuji medium format system and rock the house with 100mp and insane IQ or maybe the A1, or both. Because at that point Canon pretty much has made it's point across they do not want to support the higher resolution shooters who want a professional body. I just don't want to wait another 10 years for them to release a 50mp pro body. But being a Canon shooter since 2007???? Something like that, it's just hard to switch in my mind. We shall see.

    But, I still can't ignore the overall products Sony makes. They are pretty good.

  3. #143
    Senior Member neuroanatomist's Avatar
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    So LOTS and LOTS of people are switching to Sony because they are just so competitive and if you are not brand loyal it makes a lot of sense for a lot of people.
    I read similar statements frequently on forums, and people have been making similar claims for years. When I ask for evidence to support the assertion of this mass migration, the usual response is along the lines of, ‘I know like four people who switched’. Can you do better, as in provide actual data? Not trying to be argumentative, just asking you to support your assertion.

    For reference, the most recent publicly available data are from 2020. Canon gained ~4% market share for interchangeable lens cameras and had about 50% of the market. Sony gained 2.5% market share and had close to 25% of the market. Nikon lost ~6.5% market share and had just over 13% of the market. So the data suggest people are switching from Nikon to Sony, and even more people are switching from Nikon to Canon. I really don’t think competition between $5-6K cameras are going to affect the market as a whole.

    One other consideration is that even if the R3 appeals mainly to Canon users, that’s half of the entire ILC market.

    Nothing is stopping you from switching, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that your views, whatever they are, represent those of a substantial number of others, unless you have actual evidence to support that assumption. Unless you have data more recent that last year’s published market data, or data from a reliable source on a subsegment of the market (such data are hard if not impossible to find, since manufacturers don’t provide granular data), making sweeping statements about what LOTS of people are doing may not be the best choice.

  4. #144
    Senior Member Fast Glass's Avatar
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    Yes, I see daily people selling their Canon gear to switch to Sony as I like browsing classifieds on FB and other more traditional places to buy and sell like Ebay or other forums. Mostly those that had EF mount stuff. One just has to pay attention to the classifieds.

    I was just chatting with someone on FB market place about it. He switched to the Sony a7R. Plus with the pixel shift you can achieve 240mp. Things like that are far more game changing to IQ than just 1/3 of a stop improvement.

    Also sales, they have radically expanded business in the last several years and have been able to surpass even Nikon and now making them number two in sales.

    The AP and other agencies have made Sony their brand of choice, this is big dollar purchases of very expensive gear. Pro gear like the A1. This is not insignificant and show's that Sony is able to play with the big boys like Canon and Nikon.

    When was the last time you heard of someone switching from Sony to Canon or to Nikon? I have not seen one single case of this, I'm sure it happens but it's not something I have seen. Certainly not widespread.

  5. #145
    Senior Member neuroanatomist's Avatar
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    Those are anecdotes. Anecdotes ≠ data. There are more Sony alpha bodies for sale on my local Craigslist page than Canon DSLRs (there are more Canon items overall, because there are a lot of old film cameras for sale). That must mean more people are dumping Sony, right? I know a couple of local photographers that switched to Sony a couple years ago. One just sold her Sony gear and went back to Canon. I know about 6 local folks that switched to Fuji APS-C in the past couple of years. That must mean Fuji is better than all the other brands, right? Oh, and I know a couple of wedding shooters that switched from Nikon to Canon for the R5, 28-70/2 and compact 70-200/2.8. So overall, my anecdotes show Fuji > Canon > Sony > Nikon. But none of that matters, because anecdotes ≠ data.

    Incidentally, the AP thing is a red herring. It’s about who can offer the better financial package. Reportedly many actual photographers aren’t happy using Sony but they don’t have a choice.

    Really, none of this matters. If you want to switch to an A1 or a GFX 100S, go for it. If you don’t find the R3 compelling, don’t buy one. But if part of your rationale for switching is that LOTS of people are doing it so it must be a good decision, you’re using a rationale that is not supported by actual data, and is probably more confirmation bias than anything else.

  6. #146
    Super Moderator Kayaker72's Avatar
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    Usually in these discussions, I can fall back on CIPA data, but looking at their website, I am not seeing the breakdown between brands. Still, some great data. For example, 2021 has been remarkably flat, not showing a holiday bump in sales. And, perhaps most telling, at least in Japan, recent camera sales are really being driven by >60 yr olds.

    In terms of comparison between brands, there is this article on dpreview assessing 2020 data. The headline is "Sony Tops Mirrorless Production with Canon close behind..." And I remember this being pointed out when this article came out, but what funny about that is Sony was the pioneer into mirrorless...leading the way. For most of 2020, Canon's entries were EOS-M, the R, and RP. The R5 and R6 were not really available until 2H and even 4Q 2020. And Sony didn't lead in overall camera sales, just mirrorless...but DPReview...

    The numbers for 2020 as reported in DPreview: Sony: 1.15M MILCs; Canon: 1.05M MILCs and 1.71M DSLRs = 2.76M ILCs; and Nikon: 250K MILC, and 900K DSLRs = 1.15M ILCs. Between these 3 manufacturers (not including Fuji/Pentax/etc), that is 5.06M ILCs, with Canon holding 54.5% of the market and Nikon/Sony tied at 22.7%.

    BCN does have some 2021 data for mirrorless ILCs in Japan only (~40% of retailers). Photorumors thinks BCN mislabeled Sony v Canon (orange and blue lines), but it is clear, they were neck/neck for 2021. If you look at the actual BCN site, you also see which cameras are selling the best, which tend to be low cost, APS-C type cameras. But, considering BCNs limited scope, I've tended to prefer CIPA numbers when available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Glass View Post
    When was the last time you heard of someone switching from Sony to Canon or to Nikon? I have not seen one single case of this, I'm sure it happens but it's not something I have seen. Certainly not widespread.
    ..ummm...cough...Chelsea Northrup did this whole series about switching to the R5. Tony and Chelsea switched all their recording cameras to Canon a few years ago. Jared Polin has switched to recording with the R5....several other landscape youtubers have been migrating to Fuji medium format, and a couple from Sony.

    It's just a thing. Obviously, switching gear videos gets clicks. Knowing all the gear makes reviewers better at their jobs (Mark Smith intentionally buys Canon/Nikon even though he's a Sony shooter so he can better help those he guides).

    I do not want to take away from Sony...they have done a great job over the last 10 years going from essentially nothing to 2nd place. But as Neuro has pointed out, it has primarily been at the expense of Nikon/Pentax/etc. All the numbers I see are that Canon has gained market share over the same time.

    Of course, what other people shoot does not affect my photography other than I want to be investing in a company that I can count on to still be around in the foreseeable future. Still be servicing my gear as needed. Providing me updates that I may want to buy. The numbers can fluctuate, but no doubt in my mind Canon is one of those companies, if not the company that best exemplifies that standard. I'll be able to pick up Canon lenses and updated bodies for the foreseeable future.

  7. #147
    Senior Member neuroanatomist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayaker72 View Post
    Of course, what other people shoot does not affect my photography other than I want to be investing in a company that I can count on to still be around in the foreseeable future. Still be servicing my gear as needed. Providing me updates that I may want to buy. The numbers can fluctuate, but no doubt in my mind Canon is one of those companies, if not the company that best exemplifies that standard. I'll be able to pick up Canon lenses and updated bodies for the foreseeable future.
    I agree that Canon is one of those companies – as long as ILCs are still a thing, Canon will make and support them. Eventually, something paradigm shifting will come along to effectively replace the market, ultra resolution holography or something like that, in the same way that 8-track became cassettes became CDs became iPods became streaming.

    A couple of years ago, Fuji admitted that their ILC business was not profitable (although their Instax line is very profitable); they stated they would keep making ILCs anyway for 'historical and societal reasons', which represents a certain level of commitment.

    I'm not as confident in Sony. In Sony's financial reports, they really bury their camera sales and over the past few years they have moved that line item from one division to another. That's a strategy sometimes used to hide losing segments (from a ROI standpoint, obviously Sony is selling cameras). Sony has a history of abandoning lines which aren't providing good ROI. They abandoned the Vaio computer line. More recently, they partially abandoned mobile phones (they still sell them, but only in Europe and a handful of Asian countries, in the US there is 'no operator business' and most of the world is either that or 'defocused'). So no one outside of Sony really knows if their ILC business is profitable, and they are a company with a history of abandoning product lines when they aren't.

  8. #148
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    Sales and quantity of bodies sold is not a indication of the best camera. It may be an indication of how well a company markets, brand recognition or other factors.

    I write off the opinions of Sony fanboys on forums as possibly misguided. Sales departments create proception and those perceptions are generated by profit. In the US Canon price controls their products. In the local camera shop the owner always reached for Sony or Nikon and never Canon if someone asked about which brand to go with. I asked him why, it is simple the profit margins he can make off the other brand is greater. Salesman and Sales are not a good representation of which brand is best.

    I would doubt Sony dumps their camera division, they have about a 50% share of the sensor market. Sony is their own customer, but in business all things are possible to maximize profits. Maybe they shy away from selling cameras to protect one of their customers.

    For me what should matter in a debate like this is whether Sony can take a better picture than Canon.

  9. #149
    Senior Member Fast Glass's Avatar
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    So everything that has been said really is not proving anything.

    I know Chelsea switched systems all the time, she can't make up her mind. I'm talking about either people I know or encountered through social media.

    Second, sales mean nothing on classifieds. Unless you know why they are selling. I can tell you that I have seen or commented on countless Canon and Nikon shooters switching systems. At least 100 probably more. It is a clear trend.

    As far as evidence, this is way more than ancedotal. If I wanted to spend the time I could probably find hundreds if not thousands over a period of time of people switching. But I don't have that kind of time to scour classifieds of every corner of the interwebs and question everyone.

    As far as what everyone else shoots influencing me, I never said anything of the sort. It's about market trends and being competitive and Sony has really pushed harder that anyone else with things like mirrorless, light and compact bodies, high resolutions, great dynamic range, being able to mount all kinds of lenses rather than limiting yourself to one ecosystem and much more. Things that Canon and Nikon have seen are successful and are playing catch up. I feel like Canon in particular only listens if it fits their idea of a camera but with Sony it pushes them to think outside their sometimes narrow viewpoints. Like low resolution, it's really just beyond me why they are so stubborn about it. It's just a narrow minded thought process.

  10. #150
    Super Moderator Kayaker72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDNitehawk View Post
    Sales and quantity of bodies sold is not a indication of the best camera. It may be an indication of how well a company markets, brand recognition or other factors.
    So, hopefully it didn't come across as if I/we were trying to use sales numbers to determine which system was "best." Rather, my intent was to bring some numbers to the table in a discussion as to if people are migrating to Sony from Canon. While what Sony has done, going from zero to 2nd, is impressive, and Sony growing over the last 10 years is absolutely true. It is just over the same time, Canon's market share has increased and in the 2020 numbers, Canon maintains a strong market leadership position. So, while there may be individual cases of people leaving Canon for Sony, the numbers do not support some mass migration. Just the opposite, really.

    As for "best"....it really is subjective. Starting with why do people like what they like? I mean, are you going to tell a guy that drives a truck that a Porche is better than his truck? I think we can talk about characteristics and what might be best for specific needs....but that is a different discussion.

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